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Thread: Possible trans upgrade

  1. #1
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    Possible trans upgrade

    In light of the trans in my 1994 C220 slipping in reverses since I acquired the car 2.5 years ago. I am looking to finally put a new/rebuilt trans. In researching things. I currently have the so called bullet proof 4 speed 4g-tronic 722.4.

    Question is: What is the compatibility of a 722.6 5 speed (from the c36) and would I (assume) have computer issue with compatibility...as well as will it bolt up to the c220 motor fitment wise? Lastly, in the rare event it all will work- Is that a strong reputable trans?

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-2004-Me...f7da65&vxp=mtr
    Somehow I am anticipating the simple answer- NO (lol) Any help? Never hurts to ask.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dearlove's Avatar
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    Computer is notwithstanding, however there is a guy that does tcu's for them (the 5 speed auto) but that alone will cost you over $1000

    It's not just the c36 trans, It's all cars 97 and after.

    My c36 in 96 and has the 4 speed. I'm considering transplanting the 722.6 with the custom tcu with hard as possible shifts for the track.

    All 5 speeds (auto) that came on the m111 or m104 with bolt up

  3. #3
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    Thanks Trent. With that said I am very interested in hearing any more useful information on who I need to contact or what/where I need to buy (meaning do I need to locate a TCU out of a 97- 230?

    Since the little 220 lags on low end, I would love to put another gear into it to keep it up in rpm range and also know it would help on gas mileage around town(not a big issue, but still a cost reason over long term that would eventually about pay for itself). I could see this car waking up keeping gear shifts above 3k when on it. I do not drive the car much at all, but when I do it usually with the better half in the passenger seat. A typical roll into the throttle will often lag the car until rpms come up- unless I just stomp it...and of course the Mrs stomps me in the process...lol. Its a fun car when you keep the rpms up, otherwise it just has nothing down low and will get caught sleeping in between gears often.

    Dean

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    Yup, it will all bolt up together.

    Your biggest hoop is to get in contact with someone who makes that transmission computer. They may want to know exact transmission numbers because the 722.6 came in many variants and different valve bodies, the number on the side would say 722.6XX (I can tell you exact numbers off a C36 trans, I have one around)

    Overall, the 722.6 is a good transmission, when it came out in 97' it had flaws that overtime got fixed with updated parts. Buying a used one maybe a tough call because if it wasn't rebuilt, it may soon fail.

    There is reputable rebuilder here in NorCal, search Peter Schmidt transmissions.

    If and when you do get closer, let me know if you need any parts, as I have basically all of the automatic parts left around from a conversion (shifter, wire harness, factory tcu., flex plate ect ect. I also have a running 722.6 around but has slippage in 3rd under WOT, so it's a good core!

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    Also, when you talk to whoever makes an aftermarket TCU, ask them about final gear ratio and if it can be changed, as the factory tcu is coded to typically a 3.07 rear differential, on your C220 I would run a 3.27 from a 99-00 C230k or a 3.45 from a 97-99 S320 W140 chassis to help off the line take off.

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    I was actually looking at a 3.67 rear diff out of a c240 since the trans swap is the same 1-4 gear ratios and is just adding an OD gear past 1:1.

    THis computer stuff sounds like a headache. Remo, when you say swap parts, are you saying the linkage and wiring harness are different also? I know GM stuff like the back of my hands, what marries up to what, what and where to get trans computers for the 4l60e etc. I can not pu the GM 6 speed (6l80e) into my truck without an LS motor swap due to different bolt patterns. Sounding like this little car would be a much bigger headache. Just a simple rebuilt trans for about 1500 is starting to sound like a sensible thing for a car the misses drives 99% of the time.

    ps- my current rear end ratio is already 3.37-(EDIT- WRONG- I apologize, I do have 3.07's. The c280's my year had 2.87's)
    Last edited by Vetruck; 03-17-2015 at 09:06 AM.

  7. #7
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    Here are m current # and then that numbers changes with 5sp and 3.67 gears

    current 3.07 and 4sp (1:1 trans ratio final) with 24.7 dia tires @ 75mph= 3132 rpms

    3.67 with 5sp overdrive (.75 trans ratio final)= 2808 rpms

    Here are gear change MPH with the 722.4 /3.07 @ 6000 rpms 1-4= 34/60/97/144

    722.5 with 3.67 @ 6000rpms 1-5 gears= 31/54/83/120/160

    722.6 with 3.67 @ 6000rpms 1-5 gears= 31/50/81/120/145

    You can clearly see the 722.6 5 sp with a 3.67 rearend would give me a very nice quick ratio setup as well as gain better fuel economy in overdrive freeway cruising @ 70-75mph.

  8. #8
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    Trans gear ratios in each box

    722.4 (current trans)= (1st/2nd/3rd/4th) 4.25/2.40/1.48/1

    722.5= 3.87/2.24/1.44/1/.75

    722.6= 3.93/2.41/1.49/1/.83

    You can see the large drop in the 722.4 gearbox from 1st to second is what kills us in lag. The 722.6 box has a great close ratio.

  9. #9
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    Conclusion- Guys help me out what it takes for this swap to a 722.6 and 3.67 diff. Exactly who and what do I need to contact for programing and how reliable s this reprogramming. I have a hard time trusting other people to modify my cars. The problem I have is I know nothing about vehicle computers (for the most part, Ill just say I know nothing even though I know more then the average car enthusiasts).

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    I am not sure who makes an aftermarket tcu for the 722.6, but I know they are out there and I'm sure someone else can chime in with those details!

    As the swap goes, the shifter itself is different, but easy to swap, you may need a harness if the aftermarket tcu doesn't have one already. The shift rod maybe different or not, not 100% sure.

    You will need to use the flex plate that you have, since the crank sensor pickup signals are different between 96'-97'.

    The 3.67 diff off a C240 also doesn't have axle flanges, I am not sure if the w202 stub axles can to snapped in place, however a 203 uses different style axles without the 6-bolt flanges.

  11. #11
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    Good call on the axle flange. I research more to verify that and yes you are correct (as I already assumed via your reputable knowledge)Click image for larger version. 

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    I see I am opening a can of worms here. My next question was going to be "how about stepping back one place to a 722.5 upgrade?' -but then I see even using the 3.45 diff from the W140 like you suggested would still put a 722.5 5sp box in the same overall 1-4 final gear range I already have...but with an overdrive (5th) that would be useless.

    Thank you for your helpful input everyone. I would say at this point the OEM rebuilt swap is in rightful order. This is not my race car and is not economically a smart move at 3-4 times the cost of a simple OEM replacement.

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    Ol' lady doesn't want a clutch to kick instead?

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    Nope. God help anyone driving near her. She's never driven one. I was just trying to get her to drive one of my new little racecars around the block but she is scared and refuses.I'm building it to smash up on destruction nights at Toyota speedway. Its a dodge neon 5sp manual with 12:1 power/weight ratio I'll run in enduros and flag pole races. Perfect car for her to crash trying but she still won't.Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Vetruck; 03-18-2015 at 01:52 PM.

  14. #14
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    Haha awesome!

    ... But back to your 722.6 swap, did you find any aftermarket tcu's ?

    The transmission and everything else is nuts and bolts. Can be done fairly easy. As far as the diff goes, I actually need to get a 3.67 W203 diff for my wife's car, she has a manual 05' C230 and one of the carrier bearings is getting noisy, I figure I'd up the ratio to 3.67 instead of 3.46 or whatever it is.. What I'm getting at is- once I have a scrap 203 diff I can try and see if the 202 stub axle can slide in and clip in with a C-clip.

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    I contacted Robert Beckman at Beckman Technologies. He advise me that he thinks the engine management CAN bus does not transfer enough data to shift the .6 in my year car (1994) of course you realise I do not have a friken clue about what I just passed along info wise, lol.

    He suggested I find a stand alone all manual 722.6 but had no advice who or where to get such from.

  16. #16
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    Ps- there is a used 3.67 203 carrier on eBay right now for $190.

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    Your car is too early to be on a CAN network, basically stating that the engine electronics module is not capable of communicating with an added trans module (fucking obvious there) ... Yea, you need to source and aftermarket tcu.

    I have worked with Beckmann though before on custom coding ect.

    A 3.67 from a local wrecker goes around $100. C240 parts are everywhere

  18. #18
    Senior Member Dearlove's Avatar
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    yeah the 722.6 came with the cars post can bus, 96 and earlier cant use the tcu

    I'll dig up that guys email for the stand alone tcu

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemoLexi View Post

    If and when you do get closer, let me know if you need any parts, as I have basically all of the automatic parts left around from a conversion (shifter, wire harness, factory tcu., flex plate ect ect. I also have a running 722.6 around but has slippage in 3rd under WOT, so it's a good core!
    Dearlove, Im going to contact him for details. I guess I am still hot on this idea.

    Remo, your quote from above- If I can get this to work I am definitely interested in a few parts I will need. Can you tell me of the shifter bolts right into the w202 setup (basically will it just fit as the current shifter I have does)? I do not want to hack up the console or make it look Gerry rigged. Do you know if it would fit cleanly?

    Also does anyone know any sources of ring and pinion gears (aftermarket ratios) for these cars. I am not finding much if anything in internet searches

  21. #21
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    I think I found something fun. I am having a hard time finding compatibility but I think this will work- can someone confirm if you know yes or no?

    I found this on ebay right now. From what it appears it is the same pinion shaft makeup as the large carrier 3.67 cases in the w140.my W202 has a small case from what I can verify so this would not work inside mine. Would this fit in the w140 ? If so I would buy a used one and these new gars and rebuild it. If thisstand alone TCU will work then I would assume I can go up with the rear end ration. This would give me unbelievable gearing with very quick ratio.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Ben...f0d01f&vxp=mtr

  22. #22
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    722.6 w/ 3.92
    Gear mph @ 6000rpms 1/2/3/4/OD
    29/47/76/113/136

    3300 @ 75mph

    Might be a little too high ratio. I cruise right now at 3120rpms. Would eat gas on the freeway. The 3.67 is much better.

    I could probably buy a few used diffs (a w140 3.27 and a c240 3.67)and make a 3.67 into a w140 3.27/2.45 case with new bearings and seals.

    I can do all the work, I just need to know if the parts are all compatable before I buy things. I just do not know what years what fits what in crossover applications.
    Last edited by Vetruck; 03-21-2015 at 04:57 PM.

  23. #23
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    The shifter is direct bolt in. No chopping or hacking, but you will have the newer style shifter gate, you will have to buy a new shift knob because I don't think they swap over.

    I just purchased a W203 3.67 diff today, $130 w/tax locally. I also have a R129 large pumpkin w/3.69 still in the blue C36 my friend totaled, it may just be good for r/p swap like you are interested in, since the entire rear subframe is taco'd beyond belief.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemoLexi View Post
    The shifter is direct bolt in. No chopping or hacking, but you will have the newer style shifter gate, you will have to buy a new shift knob because I don't think they swap over.

    I just purchased a W203 3.67 diff today, $130 w/tax locally. I also have a R129 large pumpkin w/3.69 still in the blue C36 my friend totaled, it may just be good for r/p swap like you are interested in, since the entire rear subframe is taco'd beyond belief.
    Perfect on the shifter info.

    Well heck, it appears I was barking up the right tree all the time and had no idea. So the 1995 C36 has the same large pumpkin carrier with 3.69's OEM as the R129 platform carriers. I also see the 2.4-16's came with them also in the 5 sp manuals. (So I am exactly on track with the original 3.67 idea and the factory had already beat me to it with the 3.69...lol- If I am correct with that statement I hope)

    So basically if am correct then a R129 3.69 ASR (I know I do not want an ASD rom what I researched) will bolt right into my car? Can you PM me what you are asking for the C36 diff? (if it is in decent shape, Or is the housing damaged and just the R&P salvageable?)

    also interested in the shifter and associated parts I need to convert all this that you may have laying around.

    based on what the guy from Dearloves recommend TCU link tells me, looks like I am ready to pull the trigger if all this looks like it will all work.
    I can get a 722.6 trans freshy rebuilt from Sunvalley MB very near to me for $2000 with new convertor./ Or my original option was just to do the SunvalleyMB 722.423 replacement with conv for $1750. The 5sp auto conversion hopefully will be about 4K or less if this TCU is not outrageous in price. I nee a few new trans lines anyways, but I would assume the OEMs will work based off pictures of both trans types (they basically look the same.) the last questions I would have is are the 722.423 and the 722.6 overall lengths the same or do I need to shorten the driveline.

  25. #25
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    I know Russell. He is a good guy and knows his stuff. His reputationin the Seattle area is well known with people in the MB scene. Let me know if I can help out. His shop is close to me.
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