how low is too low

[rman]

Originally posted by undercover
i agree with Denlasoul,

my 202 handles corners better than my mates c200 on bags, im on compressed springs with stock shocks, and before was riding on vogtlands, and lowering springs gave me hell of a body roll!
but, fair enough our cars arnt that fast but theres plenty of potential and space for performance. i kept up with a honda integra B18C which was modded out nicely, and im just in a c180 with a custom intake..?? im still happy, no need to drive fast all the times, dont wana die now do we?

how were your springs compressed?

Anyhow, you give no info on the bag setup, what shocks either of you are running, swaybars, etc. The only bagged 202 i know in NZ is bagged on SS RS5's with no shocks up front. I doubt that guy cares about handling.

Also, A b18c integra? is it a GSR or Type R? either one I doubt you'd even keep up with.
one is 170hp, the other is 190hp, probalby more in NZ. Those cars also weigh less than 2500 lbs.
You've got much less HP, and probably weigh in at 3300 lbs.

The B.S. meter is competing with the "Lack of Facts" meter.

-not trying to be a dick, but all this fallacious commentary makes me sick

[undercover]

Originally posted by rman
how were your springs compressed?

Anyhow, you give no info on the bag setup, what shocks either of you are running, swaybars, etc. The only bagged 202 i know in NZ is bagged on SS RS5's with no shocks up front. I doubt that guy cares about handling.

Also, A b18c integra? is it a GSR or Type R? either one I doubt you'd even keep up with.
one is 170hp, the other is 190hp, probalby more in NZ. Those cars also weigh less than 2500 lbs.
You've got much less HP, and probably weigh in at 3300 lbs.

The B.S. meter is competing with the "Lack of Facts" meter.

-not trying to be a dick, but all this fallacious commentary makes me sick

i sent my springs to Snells Springs where they heated up the springs then compressed it with a machine then treated it with a heat resistant coat. i compressed the rear springs 80mm from stock height, and 75mm on the front.(im not to sure how they compressed the spring but thats what the dude told me in lay-men terms...)

well i think its a B18C teg(or might just be vtec not doch.), but its not a gsr or a type r, it looked stock, lowered on white rims and had a muffler..soo pretty much N/A...

actually there is a few bagged 202's..they just dont post up any pics of their car.
theres a Silver 202 wagon on bags with the plate [SWTCHN]
theres [HUSSLR] (sold)
my mates one who he sold to another fellow.
heres a few links for bagged 202s in nz.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...699431.htm?p=4
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...715832.htm?p=5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOHD5QbCpM8

ill get more pics up with other 202s on bags..theres another few of my mates who have bagged mercedes and an old school mercedes on hydors with 15" wire rims..lol to gangster for me..

lol and i know your not trying to be a dick, at least you mentioned it, otherwise i would of thought soooo...lol but my bad neways for being lazy and typing it out properly! thanks for the feedback.. :P

[c280nz]

did u get speedy benz camber arms undercover?
i made my own:

http://www.club202.com/forums/showth...le+camber+arms

[rman]

no worries man.

heating springs is really bad tho. It basically changes the charactaristics of the springs, killing hte spring rate.

Also, a non-vtec 1.8 honda engine is either b18a or b18b, the b18c1 is GS-R and b18c5 is type-r. They are all DOHC.

so basically you were running a 142hp car. a very light, 142hp car.

[OCKlasse]

Originally posted by rman
no worries man.

heating springs is really bad tho. It basically changes the charactaristics of the springs, killing hte spring rate.

Also, a non-vtec 1.8 honda engine is either b18a or b18b, the b18c1 is GS-R and b18c5 is type-r. They are all DOHC.

so basically you were running a 142hp car. a very light, 142hp car.

give me a civic with a B20a block and a B16b head, and I could have a lot of fun with it

[ryhi]

i torched my springs at a muffler shop.

[rman]

Originally posted by ryhi
i torched my springs at a muffler shop.

gangster! that's the O.G. way. it ain't good for the springs, but it's still O.G. status. I've seen jesse james do that to a "project vehicle" (i think it was the ford explorer trash truck)

[undercover]

Originally posted by c280nz
did u get speedy benz camber arms undercover?
i made my own:

http://www.club202.com/forums/showth...le+camber+arms

umm have no idea, according to the guy i bought it off it was benzboys adjustable camber arms, the camber arms were on trademe and i had just stumbled onto it when i was at work! glad i found it cos i was thinking of forking out the money for speedybenz camber arms over the net but i scored these arms for $81 for 2! really really good buy ae! :P

[undercover]

Originally posted by rman
no worries man.

heating springs is really bad tho. It basically changes the charactaristics of the springs, killing hte spring rate.

Also, a non-vtec 1.8 honda engine is either b18a or b18b, the b18c1 is GS-R and b18c5 is type-r. They are all DOHC.

so basically you were running a 142hp car. a very light, 142hp car.

yeah i know heating springs isnt good but so is cutting springs! both ways their the same yeah know :P
my springs have finally settled and it actually sits at 90mm on the rear and 85mm on the front. its lower than i tought it would go so i think its time to chuck in some cups to raise it abit..

okay, so maybe he wasnt pushing his car to race me, he knows im slow, he knows i'll lose..so i guess he was giving me a chance? HAHAHA not really..ill just kick back and relax now economy mode.. no more thrashing of my car, not that i do it so often lol..

haha you look pretty O.G in your ride when you got caught for the traffic fine. nice photo

[undercover]

Originally posted by ryhi
i torched my springs at a muffler shop.

how long did that take?? and thats pretty ruthless haha :P

[ryhi]

took no more than 15 mins for all 4.

[undercover]

Originally posted by ryhi
took no more than 15 mins for all 4.

insane :bunny: :bandit:

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by undercover
yeah i know heating springs isnt good but so is cutting springs!

Wow, we can't seem to excize this dis-info that always creeps in. (...dunno why I'm trying, but here I go)

Why would you say that? (re: cutting of course; cooking them being bad is not in dispute) If you don't have a spring with finished coils creating a platform @ the end (see what I use as an example in my speedybenz kit) but just the stock 202 coils that don't have a platform, a cut coil is -= 100% the same =- as an uncut coil, just with increased spring rate. The formula of "by how much" and examples is given in a link I provided a number of posts ago.

If say, you cut the spring to be an inch shorter and you -want- the rate to increase, you're not doing anything different then the manufacturer would if you wanted to spend the money to buy it from them with that 1" shorter dimension and having the increased rate you end up with by cutting the spring. ...100% the same thing!

Cut coils are 100% ok. Are you saying what you are saying based on sound engineering knowledge? Do you know the math behind it?

[rman]

Originally posted by c55m8o
Wow, we can't seem to excize this dis-info that always creeps in. (...dunno why I'm trying, but here I go)

Why would you say that? (re: cutting of course; cooking them being bad is not in dispute) If you don't have a spring with finished coils creating a platform @ the end (see what I use as an example in my speedybenz kit) but just the stock 202 coils that don't have a platform, a cut coil is -= 100% the same =- as an uncut coil, just with increased spring rate. The formula of "by how much" and examples is given in a link I provided a number of posts ago.

If say, you cut the spring to be an inch shorter and you -want- the rate to increase, you're not doing anything different then the manufacturer would if you wanted to spend the money to buy it from them with that 1" shorter dimension and having the increased rate you end up with by cutting the spring. ...100% the same thing!

Cut coils are 100% ok. Are you saying what you are saying based on sound engineering knowledge? Do you know the math behind it?

thanks! i didn't want to get into the debate, especially since you are much more articulate than I (articulate being my big word for 2007).

Also, springs are made in 1 huge coil at the factory, and then chopped up into the desired lenghts/coils. It's purely mathematical, unless heat is used to cut (i.e. cutting torch).

The best ways to cut a coil are either hacksaw (ouch) or chop saw. I used a die grinder, but took breaks and cooled the spring down if too much heat was generated.

[undercover]

Originally posted by c55m8o
Wow, we can't seem to excize this dis-info that always creeps in. (...dunno why I'm trying, but here I go)

Why would you say that? (re: cutting of course; cooking them being bad is not in dispute) If you don't have a spring with finished coils creating a platform @ the end (see what I use as an example in my speedybenz kit) but just the stock 202 coils that don't have a platform, a cut coil is -= 100% the same =- as an uncut coil, just with increased spring rate. The formula of "by how much" and examples is given in a link I provided a number of posts ago.

If say, you cut the spring to be an inch shorter and you -want- the rate to increase, you're not doing anything different then the manufacturer would if you wanted to spend the money to buy it from them with that 1" shorter dimension and having the increased rate you end up with by cutting the spring. ...100% the same thing!

Cut coils are 100% ok. Are you saying what you are saying based on sound engineering knowledge? Do you know the math behind it?

no i dont know the math behind it. but i have printed off the formula you posted
please explain more about heated springs?

[c55m8o]

It's a form or "annealing" (read the Wiki article). Excerpt: Annealing, in metallurgy and materials science, is a heat treatment wherein a material is altered, causing damage to its properties such as strength and hardness. It is a process that produces conditions by heating and maintaining at a suitable temperature, and then cooling very slowly. It is used to induce softness, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure and improve cold working properties.

If the spring was heated and not immersed in a solution but cooled slowly in air, it is the "normalizing" heat treatment form of annealing. (The former method actually 'hardens' the exterior of metals.)

I don't think my springs need to be soften and reduce the strength and harness of them. But what the reader might realize when reading all this is, if the action wasn't done in a furnace to provide uniform heat over the entire surface and heat the volume of the material equally, but just hit with a torch in spots, the annealing will be 'spotty' as there's just no way each and every part of that spring was heated uniformly. I surmise that would definitely lead to shearing forces occuring -within- the spring coils existing between the boundries of the spring that were softened through annealing an not softened as much by not having received as high a heat treatment. ...could break.

You may 'want' a softer spring though. And controlled annealing in a furnace would be the way to do it. (you just really don't know what spring rate you'll be getting in any case). I personally just think taking a torch to a spring would be a very inferior way to do it vs. doing it in a furnace. It definitely would result in a non-uniformly altered spring having soft and hard spots throughout both the surface and volume, with additional sheering stresses produced at those boundaries vs. the lower stresses throughout the material annealing is supposed to produce.

[undercover]

Originally posted by c55m8o
It's a form or "annealing" (read the Wiki article). Excerpt: Annealing, in metallurgy and materials science, is a heat treatment wherein a material is altered, causing damage to its properties such as strength and hardness. It is a process that produces conditions by heating and maintaining at a suitable temperature, and then cooling very slowly. It is used to induce softness, relieve internal stresses, refine the structure and improve cold working properties.

If the spring was heated and not immersed in a solution but cooled slowly in air, it is the "normalizing" heat treatment form of annealing. (The former method actually 'hardens' the exterior of metals.)

I don't think my springs need to be soften and reduce the strength and harness of them. But what the reader might realize when reading all this is, if the action wasn't done in a furnace to provide uniform heat over the entire surface and heat the volume of the material equally, but just hit with a torch in spots, the annealing will be 'spotty' as there's just no way each and every part of that spring was heated uniformly. I surmise that would definitely lead to shearing forces occuring -within- the spring coils existing between the boundries of the spring that were softened through annealing an not softened as much by not having received as high a heat treatment. ...could break.

You may 'want' a softer spring though. And controlled annealing in a furnace would be the way to do it. (you just really don't know what spring rate you'll be getting in any case). I personally just think taking a torch to a spring would be a very inferior way to do it vs. doing it in a furnace. It definitely would result in a non-uniformly altered spring having soft and hard spots throughout both the surface and volume, with additional sheering stresses produced at those boundaries vs. the lower stresses throughout the material annealing is supposed to produce.

okay, as far as i know the guys who compressed my springs for me (Snell Springs) have heat treating equipment, they actually make springs. they heat the spring up, then they are able to move the spring carefully without damaging it and thus compressing the spring. Then going through another process which hardens them again. in this case the springs properties havent been slightly modified. i was talking to the guy just before and he tells me that tourching the spring is softing the spring, what he's done to my spring is that he hasnt soften'd it hes just lowered my springs with the same hardness of the spring.
i couldnt catch everything he said..but yeah phew..it was a real handful.
btw, how'd you know so much about properties of metal? and spring rates? its good that you know, and pass you knowledge on..:P

[undercover]

oh c55m8o
i was ment to ask, are you for heating springs or against? cos im abit confused :P

[c55m8o]

That description of how you had it done certainly sheds a lot of light on that. I'm guess I'd say I'm "for" that, if you're looking to go just 'lower' w/o increase in spring rate; I'd be thoroughly against it if it was 'torched'.

What I wonder about however with compressing it that way is if you'll bind the springs sooner. If you went with another spring that has the same rate but is just shorter, you'd have less coils, and thus more compression travel from equilibrium before binding. If you hear 'bonging' from your springs, that's the coils hitting each other and basically 'bottoming out' (i.e. binding). Dunno; just a thought.

...well, I'm either @ my 1/2-way point in life or beyond that in age, and a pretty 'technical' guy, and am always looking to learn. Internet's been great for that. But got started with working in my dad's machine shop from my early teens, where he designed and built plasitc bagging and sealing machinery. He was an imigrant who escaped communism in the 50's and who truely lived the American dream (and curse, including dieing early right after retirement) and I started off by picking a lot up from him my 1st 2 decades on this earth.

[undercover]

Originally posted by c55m8o
That description of how you had it done certainly sheds a lot of light on that. I'm guess I'd say I'm "for" that, if you're looking to go just 'lower' w/o increase in spring rate; I'd be thoroughly against it if it was 'torched'.

What I wonder about however with compressing it that way is if you'll bind the springs sooner. If you went with another spring that has the same rate but is just shorter, you'd have less coils, and thus more compression travel from equilibrium before binding. If you hear 'bonging' from your springs, that's the coils hitting each other and basically 'bottoming out' (i.e. binding). Dunno; just a thought.

...well, I'm either @ my 1/2-way point in life or beyond that in age, and a pretty 'technical' guy, and am always looking to learn. Internet's been great for that. But got started with working in my dad's machine shop from my early teens, where he designed and built plasitc bagging and sealing machinery. He was an imigrant who escaped communism in the 50's and who truely lived the American dream (and curse, including dieing early right after retirement) and I started off by picking a lot up from him my 1st 2 decades on this earth.

haha okay cool cool, well im glad that you've introduced me to this part of science! im real interested in it now and surfing wikipedia and google on anything to do with suspension and forces and what not i can think of, guess the more i read the more i'll learn!

He was an imigrant who escaped communism in the 50's and who truely lived the American dream (and curse, including dieing early right after retirement)

[undercover]

this is to low.

[c280nz]

i love those rims!
brabus i beleive?

[undercover]

Originally posted by c280nz
i love those rims!
brabus i beleive?

yuppp sure is
hows your ride going bro?

[Chris_c200]

Are those mags exactly the same as mine cept bigger??
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...p-41998907.htm
Sorry im new and dont know how to actaully put the pic in the reply =S

[undercover]

Originally posted by Chris_c200
Are those mags exactly the same as mine cept bigger??
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...p-41998907.htm
Sorry im new and dont know how to actaully put the pic in the reply =S

ahhh they look the same...those on the wagon are 18's
just look bigger cos the car is sitting on the ground lol..:P