How to lower my car?

[c63amg]

hey im changing the brake pads on my w202 this week and painting the calipers, i was wondering how i can lower the car. i dunno how many inches is safest and how it should be done. do i have to buy new springs? how does one go about doing this? thanks in advanc

[K_Sport Driver]

1. search button

2. don't cut your springs, buy lowering springs.

[tinter101]

It is recommended that you buy lowering springs. The most popular 2 brands here in the club are H&R or Eibach. You may want to consider changing shocks while doing this. If you are
still running stock shocks that is.

[OCKlasse]

Originally posted by K_Sport Driver
1. search button

2. don't cut your springs, buy lowering springs.

the debate will never die...but cutting your springs is no different than buying aftermarket...if you know what you are doing that is...

[rollinrealbig]

in this case - just pay up $200 for a set of springs and hav those popped in. maybe get #1 pads while your up there.

cutting is a cheaper way to do it.

[rman]

Originally posted by OCKlasse
the debate will never die...but cutting your springs is no different than buying aftermarket...if you know what you are doing that is...

werd.

k_sport bashed me liek there was no tomorrow on the topic, and in another thread, someone actually disproved whatever he was saying with a mathematical equation.

cutting springs = OK (if done properly)

[c63amg]

hey thanks for the tips, so i simply cut the stock springs? but how many inches or how much to cut off?

[therock2689]

i wouldnt cut it because it changes how much teh spring can hold up. If you where to cut off the leg of a table, its not going to stand right, is it. If you cut it, make sure that the flatten the top of the spring so that it sits right.

[rollinrealbig]

Originally posted by c63amg
hey thanks for the tips, so i simply cut the stock springs? but how many inches or how much to cut off?

id cut off one coil ... which is a 360degree circle. just take it to a shop that can do that for you.

[c63amg]

on the eibach website it says that its not good to cut the stock springs, has anyone here through experience seen if it is a good idea or not? have any problems arisen? what happens if the springs arent all cut EXACTLY alike or aligned correctky

[c55m8o]

You should read through some of the threads in the suspension tuning forum on this board (not Body Mods); deciding which thread based on the title.

[JDoggery]

don't cut, just get lowering springs and shocks. otherwise just putting on springs will wear your stock shocks faster. there is a reason why they make lowering springs such as h&r, eibach, etc.

[c63amg]

do eibach sportline springs fit on the w202? is so how many inches does it drop? how much it cost? anyone have pics of your car with it, assuming u bought the springs, thankz

[K_Sport Driver]

last post on this: cutting your springs does not increase the spring rate. it is the same spring, it is the same spring rate. the rate is not dependent on the amount of spring, but the thickness of the spring itself. you can read a lot of things saying spring cutting is good on the internet, but people who believe everything they read on the web are simply retarded. i've said it's not bad if you don't slam the thing, but you're just simply safer doing lowering springs. performancewise, you do not benefit from spring cutting other than simply lowering your centre of gravity. there is no increased stiffness, there is no increased cornering. period. i'm not going to debate this, i know i'm right, i've consulted people who own shops who support my comments, but i'm not going to go tell all of them to register on here just to support me. I find that having to have other people back me up is a sign of insecurity. that's it.

[OCKlasse]

Originally posted by K_Sport Driver
last post on this: cutting your springs does not increase the spring rate. it is the same spring, it is the same spring rate. the rate is not dependent on the amount of spring, but the thickness of the spring itself. you can read a lot of things saying spring cutting is good on the internet, but people who believe everything they read on the web are simply retarded. i've said it's not bad if you don't slam the thing, but you're just simply safer doing lowering springs. performancewise, you do not benefit from spring cutting other than simply lowering your centre of gravity. there is no increased stiffness, there is no increased cornering. period. i'm not going to debate this, i know i'm right, i've consulted people who own shops who support my comments, but i'm not going to go tell all of them to register on here just to support me. I find that having to have other people back me up is a sign of insecurity. that's it.

If what you saying is correct...which I did believe it was until C55M80? clarified it for me (with mathematics), I like cutting the springs just for the sake of keeping that smooth stock ride, while still giving the car a lowered look. It is true that the car will ride "bouncier" if you do not cut your bumpstops, but with those cut, you do feel a very clean ride similar to stock. Its all about what you are after - "performance" or a smooth ride.

As far as the website saying cutting springs are bad, of course they would say that! They want to make money, if cutting your springs was "ok" they would be out of business ;)

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by K_Sport Driver
last post on this: cutting your springs does not increase the spring rate. it is the same spring, it is the same spring rate. the rate is not dependent on the amount of spring, but the thickness of the spring itself. Wow. Last post; first post -- wrong is wrong! Stop spreading dis-information. You only prove you don't understand the physics behind what make a spring, spring in the way it does. This board is a source for accurate information. Show me just ONE SOURCE in any book or online to support your statement. I can ONLY find sources that categorically disproves it.

- Are you saying if you put resistors in parallel you are not diminishing the resistance of the whole?

- Are you saying if you put capacitors in series you are not diminishing the capacitance of the whole?

- Coils of springs in series are the -same- concept. It is a mechanical system equivalent to the above two. You are spreading energy across multiple elements. The more elements the less each coil has to react to.

I shouldn't bother but I'll give one try. Here's the physics in lay-terms:

- Spring #1 has one coil. That spring has a length of two inches.

- Spring #2 has the exact same geometry with 10 coils... same geometry means the same diameter wire and same outer and inner diameter of each coil, made of the same material. That spring being made of the same material with 10 times the coils must be 10 time longer, 20 inches.

Let's say you compress coil #1 one inch. It took a certain amount of force. That amount of force it took is the rate. (i.e. lb/in)

Now, let's say you compress coil # 2 one inch. Remember coil # 2 is just 10 coil #1s stacked after one another. So thinking in terms of coil #1, how far did -=each=- and every one of the coils in spring #2 compress? The answer is of course, only 1/10th of an inch.

How much weight does it take to move coil #1 1/10th of one inch? Answer is it takes 1/10th of the weight.

So as that annoying kid in T2 said to the Terminator ... "are we learning yet"?

* Remember, spring rate is how much weight it takes to move something a set distance when acted upon by the force of gravity.

* Since you are only moving -=each=- of the same coils 1/10th of the distance in spring #2 then you are in spring #1, guess what ... the spring rate is 1/10th of that for the 20 inch 10 coil spring (#2) as it is for the 1 coil 2 inch spring (#1). All because spring #2 had 10x more coils.

If you did good in science like I did many decades ago, here's the formula in the mathematical terms that I described in lay-terms above, which you also should understand. (http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclipsetech/springrateinfo.htm) If you didn't do good in school, please stop being argumentative about things you don't understand! Keep thinking about the fact that spring #2 only needed -=each=- coil to compress 1/10th of the distance the very same type of coil in spring #1 had to compress, and you should understand why the spring rate in spring #1 is 10x larger then that of spring #2.

[c55m8o]

LoL. K_ ...And How Do You Explain This? (http://www.stockcarproducts.com/pstech7.htm)...

Enter the same number (say, 100) for each. That's like doubling the number of coils of the spring. Guess what. You get exactly 1/2 for the combined rate.

Why? because each of the springs only has to compress 1/2 the distance then it has to compress if used alone.

"...are we learning yet?"

( btw, the formula used in that page above is the classic "product over the sum" formula used to calculate the combined resistance of resistors in parallel or capacitors in series -- i.e. spreading energy across multiple elements in a system )

[alboogiee]

Originally posted by c63amg
hey im changing the brake pads on my w202 this week and painting the calipers, i was wondering how i can lower the car. i dunno how many inches is safest and how it should be done. do i have to buy new springs? how does one go about doing this? thanks in advanc

have you tried here? (http://www.club202.com/forums/vbevolutionimg/top_search.gif) if that doesnt work out for you try either of these: here (http://www.club202.com/forums/vbevolutionimg/top_search.gif) or here (http://www.club202.com/forums/vbevolutionimg/top_search.gif) <-- this one might be the best bet!

you can thank me later...

--alex

[K_Sport Driver]

haha you have completely lost me, c55. an in-depth explanation is not always better than a concise one, but i'll take your word for it. with my understanding of simple physics, i can't understand that cutting springs would make for higher performance, but i guess you know more than me. regardless, i somehow doubt that they would make lowering springs if they were less unreliable, safer, and offered more performance. either way, i'll never cut my springs, simply because i've heard more times than not that it's a bad thing. maybe DTM is just different from the JDM I've come to know the past 7 years.

to me, it's just a ghetto mod for people who can't afford actual lowering springs, and nothing will change my mind.

(and this is the last post, i swear. go ahead and run with this, Rman, and get your friends in on it too. I admit i'm wrong, but only because it took someone about 1500 words of gibberish to convince me. I don't want to make enemies here, so I'm sorry for being so harsh against you.)

p.s. no, we are not learning yet, at least not learning from rude sarcasm.

[Renn 208]

Sorry K-Sport, all other things being equal, cutting coils from a spring increases it's spring rate (stiffness in lay terms)


[and for people who like to read a bit more]
If we get to the root of your original post...the question is "Cutting coils? Is it okay?"

Typically, the answer is...cutting coils is perfectly fine if you know what you're doing...however, most folks on the internet say cutting springs is bad precisely because most folks don't know what they're doing when cutting springs.

That cutting coils from a spring increases its rate is precisely why it can be dangerous in the hands of the unknowing. Many unwitting people cut coils thinking that it will simply lower their car while retaining the original spring properties. Instead the stiffness of the spring increases as coils are cut. As mentioned earlier, if you have a spring with 10 coils at X rate, and you cut off 5 coils it will double the spring rate. Do the math, and a person cutting the spring can expect a proportionate increase in spring rate.

This becomes problematic when someone uses a spring with a progressive rather than linear rate. (progressive meaning that as the spring is compressed further, it takes more force to compress the same distance). With a progressive rate spring, it's a crapshoot in terms of understanding how it will affect the spring rate.

Another problem with cutting coils is that the end user may cut too many, and under load the spring may compress so that coils are touching...and bind. The spring stops acting as a spring at this point and temporarily increases the overall rate very suddenly...not a good thing.

Yet another problem faced by would-be cutters is if they happen to use a heat source to cut the springs, like a torch. Heat changes the properties of the spring metal and in an unpredictable way. Unpredictable bad

So, if you cut coils from a linear rate spring without heating up the spring, and it does not induce coil bind and your dampers can handle the reduced amount of travel, and you've decided that in increased spring rate is what you desire cutting can be perfectly fine.

For everyone else...just buy something off the shelf.

[c55m8o]

If you click my "SpeedyBenz Kit" link you'll see I wouldn't ever argue against lowering springs ... actually Jeff's kit you see comes with 2.5" racing springs made for coil-over configurations.

You'll note the Eibach springs in my kit should NEVER be cut because of how the ends are finished, and the flat surface the spring ends are finished with.

That doesn't however close my mind to alternative approaches. I learned on this board cutting the stock W202 springs really "ain't so bad". I know from my own car, the stock springs don't have finished, tapered, flatened ends; the spring pads take care of that. So cutting off any coils doesn't affect the seating of the coils in the spring perches. And the rate the springs increase by cutting off one or one and a half coil is still less then the rate of a lowering sport spring, giving the person the softer ride OCKlasse is talking about.

Hey, as long as the springs don't bind (coils hit each other) or pose any safety concerns, it's really OK, and each to his own.

I will also add, from personal experience this past year, where my car was riding real low then I had the adjustable spring perches changed to give me a 1 finger tire-to-fender gap this past Friday, that the suspension is "working right again"! The car did -not- handle well slammed -- if I even have a right to say mine was 'slammed' in light of OCKlasse's and other's cars -- compared to how it does now with a 1 finger gap; the sway bars did not function efficiently at all at that height either. The car's much stiffer, with quicker turn-in, and less prone to sway, with a 1 finger gap then when it was almost 2 inches lower.

Neither OCKlasse or I will argue with each other about what is "better" though, since they have differing goals. He's looking for looks and ride comfort. I'm looking for performance. THAT is what determines what's the best approach.

[OCKlasse]

Originally posted by c55m8o
If you click my "SpeedyBenz Kit" link you'll see I wouldn't ever argue against lowering springs ... actually Jeff's kit you see comes with 2.5" racing springs made for coil-over configurations.

You'll note the Eibach springs in my kit should NEVER be cut because of how the ends are finished, and the flat surface the spring ends are finished with.

That doesn't however close my mind to alternative approaches. I learned on this board cutting the stock W202 springs really "ain't so bad". I know from my own car, the stock springs don't have finished, tapered, flatened ends; the spring pads take care of that. So cutting off any coils doesn't affect the seating of the coils in the spring perches. And the rate the springs increase by cutting off one or one and a half coil is still less then the rate of a lowering sport spring, giving the person the softer ride OCKlasse is talking about.

Hey, as long as the springs don't bind (coils hit each other) or pose any safety concerns, it's really OK, and each to his own.

I will also add, from personal experience this past year, where my car was riding real low then I had the adjustable spring perches changed to give me a 1 finger tire-to-fender gap this past Friday, that the suspension is "working right again"! The car did -not- handle well slammed -- if I even have a right to say mine was 'slammed' in light of OCKlasse's and other's cars -- compared to how it does now with a 1 finger gap; the sway bars did not function efficiently at all at that height either. The car's much stiffer, with quicker turn-in, and less prone to sway, with a 1 finger gap then when it was almost 2 inches lower.

Neither OCKlasse or I will argue with each other about what is "better" though, since they have differing goals. He's looking for looks and ride comfort. I'm looking for performance. THAT is what determines what's the best approach.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I have half the cylinders and less than half the horsepower of c55 (essentially half the car of his lol). I am not trying to be something I am not...but helping in the looks department never hurts either :p

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by K_Sport Driver
p.s. no, we are not learning yet, at least not learning from rude sarcasm. Sorry, I got carried away with my wise cracks (you just gave some folks such a hard time in the past). This 2nd one was uncalled for tho. :p I just love that saying. :D

[rman]

ok ok, seems like we got things cleared up. K_Sport, I wasn't being insecure by inviting friends to prove a point, but you were being so opinionated on something wrong, and I really really wanted to prove a point.

Perhaps that is why I am so....horribly recieved on this site. That was one of my first posts and it raised such a ruckus. I was only trying to disprove an old myth, and stick up for mexicans (i'm not mexican tho).

I'm just glad that c55m8o was able to prove it with some concrete numbers and equations, so that we could all learn how exactly it works.

I just wish I had gotten a better start to this forum....cuz now it seems like i'm ignored. Hell, at least I didn't come here slandering races with german phrases!

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by OCKlasse
(essentially half the car of his lol) now, now, no need for self deprecation. Well, you've gotten more then your fair share of complements thrown your way on both the inside and outside of your car that I know you don't mean it anyway! ;) I wish AMGs (202s) didn't only come with black-based interiors. I love lighter interiors myself.

[Polestar]

......simply lowering your centre of gravity. there is no increased stiffness, there is no increased cornering.

Not sure if this was refuted-I didn't read the whole thread-but with just a basic understanding of physics I know this is wrong.
Lowering the center of gravity absolutly helps cornering ability.
Take a look at Formula I race cars. It's not just for areodynamics that they are so low to the ground.

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by Polestar
Not sure if this was refuted-I didn't read the whole thread-but with just a basic understanding of physics I know this is wrong.
Lowering the center of gravity absolutly helps cornering ability.
Take a look at Formula I race cars. It's not just for areodynamics that they are so low to the ground. Actually, we focused solely on the physics of how adding coils reduces/softens the spring rate of the whole; removing coils stiffens/increases the spring rate. ;) But good point too. However as you may have read in one of my posts, I was told by Jeff a long time ago, and proved it to myself through trial and error, the W202 suspension geometry has its limits to how low it likes to go to work efficiently & effectively.

[Renn 208]

Originally posted by c55m8o
the W202 suspension geometry has its limits to how low it likes to go to work efficiently & effectively.

This is a key point, and not just for w202s...As much as we'd like to believe, more is not always better.

[DB79]

Originally posted by c55m8o
the W202 suspension geometry has its limits to how low it likes to go to work efficiently & effectively.

Holds true for all street cars

[Polestar]

W202 suspension geometry has its limits to how low it likes to go

Sure, that makes sense, and I wasn't suggesting one could lower their car to the standards of a Formula 1. No way-just that lowering center of gravity is one of several factors that race cars use to corner better.
BTW, have you seen the size of tires they use today in F1?
They look the size of monster truck tires! ( I wonder if they'd fit on my W202?-I jest)

[davis449]

For the original poster:

Brotha, judging by they way you've modded your car and your display of utter ignorance when talking about your car (judging by your car domain site, cause I'm pretty sure the one referred to in Boba Lounge is yours), you have absolutely no business attempting to cut your springs yourself. In which case, the amount of money you'd spend to get someone to do it for you correctly would be better spent buying lowering springs from Eibach or H&R (yes there are Prokits and Sports to fit your car). You REALLY need to learn to use the Search button. Just make sure that you don't buy lowering springs that are specific to the AMG models, cause you don't have one.

[Renn 208]

the tw*t c**t hear you:p

[davis449]

Originally posted by Renn 208
the tw*t c**t hear you:p

LOL! What did you do to him, Renn?:D

[c55m8o]

An aggravating set of PM exchanges or something? Nothing public for us to see... ;)

[Renn 208]

I did nothing...he did it to himself