Eaton Supercharger, Pontiac GTP

[Proven Guilty]

Here is a question for the tech guru's invovled with forced induction engine building; Based loosely on 23k's turbo project and rebuilding his car, I feel it would be pretty safe to run up to 13lbs of boost on stock internals of a c230 Kompressor.

With that in mind, and the OEM SC being built by Eaton... This company also makes the superchargers used in the Pontiac GTPs. I've found inexpensive pulley kits that give as much as +6 pounds of boost over stock pulleys on the 3.4L V-6 engines (pretty damn impressive!) and they seem to hold up very well to the added boost.

What do you think would be involved in a swap from the OEM eaton to the GTP's OEM eaton?

-Anyone know the eaton model number of the stock mercedes 230k supercharger?
-Anyone know the eaton model number of the stock Pontiac GTP's supercharger?

The reason I'm interested, is that I'm considering a forced induction project that uses supercharger with high boost at low RPM, and Turbo from the 3k+ range (to completely eliminate turbo lag, and still pull ponies out of a small "4-banger", just for the wow factor!)

With how readily available these GTP S.C.'s are available, it's really got me thinkin!

edit: Daddy Likey Ebay! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1996-2003-GM-3800-Hi-Perf-Supercharger-Grand-Prix-GTP_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ008QQitem Z180004135150QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V)

[Proven Guilty]

The more I look at the pics, hot damn does it look like the stock Mercedes S.C.!

[jnenad16]

mercedes uses eaton M45 SC for their 1.8L and 2.3L four bangers, and GM uses eaton M62(if I remember correctly) for their 3.4L and 3.8L V6. the M62 is quite bigger than the M45, and I would imagine it has higher cfm's and possibly higher volumetric efficiency than the M45. I had actually had an idea of putting in a M62 in my BMW 328is, but I soon found out that roots SC have a fixed volume delivery(which, if pushed over the engine's capacity, is dangerous), and the only variable volume SC is centrifugal, which is what I opted for and put in my car.

here is the visual comparison in size between the M45 and M62
http://www.theoldone.com/sc/zc-prototypes.html

nenad

[therock2689]

You do know that quite compicated. Even thoguh there is a VW(concept i do believe) that uses that system. I believe it uses an eletromagnetic clutch on the SC and then a valve that opens to let teh TC take over. the only snag i see here is when that TC starts to spinn before xxxxrpm change over pt, where would all that extra air go. the only thing i could think of is a BOV/bypass vaule that can be open when the SC is on and the bypass is closed, and then close when teh TC takes over.
CHeck out that creative plan i have drawn out, isnt it preeety.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j275/therock2689/untitled.jpg

[Proven Guilty]

you're pretty much spot on with the logic rock. the stock supercharger uses an electric bypass valve, and a clutch that turns the supercharger on and off. using that same logic, turning off the supercharger at a certain RPM may be as simple as programming a custom chip. i don't think it would be too difficult to put a spring controlled BOV before the mechanical one to purge if there was ever a surge of preassure from the turbo kicking in while the SC was disengaging.

@jnenad - the more i looked into it, the GTP supercharger is an M90. seems significantly more powerful. if i went this route with the pulley kit, the turbo would almost be pointless!

couple that with a trust IC, and a loooooot of homework, i think we might be onto something here. :D

[therock2689]

either route, you will get a good kick. but, either route, it will be an equal bitch. Personal, i like SC because i like torque, lively motors, even though, TC are getting faster and faster spool up times. But SC tend to lack up top and are alot more limited then a TC. You TC can grow with you engine much easyer then a SC. On a SC, you have to change the pully everytime you want to crank some more boost, on a TC, just click teh boost controler up and instant boost. The ways its looking though, on may next car, i may do a TC mod, or maybe even a TT mod.

[rman]

i think the old s/c for t-birds used eaton m90s

[Brando457]

how about mounting this supercharger on a V6 benz :) hehe

[alphanumeric]

what about the open side on that GTP supercharger.. that supercharger is meant to sit ontop of a V6 and force air right into the intake manifold.. right?

[rman]

you can always just fab up a custom centrifugal s/c setup.

or what some people do, is take a roots blower like the eaton m90, fab up box for the open side, that also mounts it, and mount it like a centrifugal....so it's not ontop of the intake plenum.

[Proven Guilty]

Originally posted by Brando457
how about mounting this supercharger on a V6 benz :) hehe

I like where you're going with this! I'm curious to see what type of kompressor is used on the C32. I'm still doing my "homework" so-to-speak, because I've got this evil grin I can't wipe off my face with a sick project I'd like to start.

Granted, the difficulty of it will feel about as good as leaning into a punch, but hey; who said performance modding was easy? :D

[Proven Guilty]

Originally posted by alphanumeric
what about the open side on that GTP supercharger.. that supercharger is meant to sit ontop of a V6 and force air right into the intake manifold.. right?
this is very true... :(


Originally posted by rman
you can always just fab up a custom centrifugal s/c setup.

or what some people do, is take a roots blower like the eaton m90, fab up box for the open side, that also mounts it, and mount it like a centrifugal....so it's not ontop of the intake plenum.
this is also very true!... :)

[Proven Guilty]

After doing more homework, the M90 does seem a bit out of reach for what I had in mind. However, there does exist the possibility of using this type of blower on a N/A v6 or v8 engine, since the centrifugal (sp) superchargers are much less efficient at lower RPMs and boost is fully optimized at higher RPM (where compression efficiency inside the cylinder themselves are low) which would make it a pretty safe alternative for the "bolt on" applications where you didn't want to rebuild the internals for lower compression. this is the route i would go if i wanted to supercharge a c280 with 5lbs of boost for example :D

However, there appears to be a lot of things you can do to improve the eaton M45 roots blower used on our cars (port and polishing etc) and other modifications as can be found with that ebay link.

Also, the physical dimensions of the Eaton M62 (width and height) are identical to the M45, and is only slightly longer in size. This may be a closer match for a more plug-n-play upgrade for the c230K engines.

Picture of the physical dimensions (M62) with compairison to the other superchargers that eaton offers:
http://www.automotive.eaton.com/images/products/M62M112.gif

I've emailed a technical consultant at Eaton for more information since it also uses a VDO bypass system (i've got my fingers crossed that it can be integrated with the stock magnetic clutch and stock bypass in the current 230k).

The main difference with the M62 over the M45 is the fact that has a 1.0L displacement (.25L gain) and has a much stronger looking power curve (on average 8-10hp gain at 5lbs of boost, and 10-12hp gain at 10lbs of boost). These are very conservative numbers when taken into consideration.

The horsepower of the C230 N/A and the C230K is much greater than 22hp as suggested on the eaton website for 5lbs of boost (stock on the c230K).

With the right chip, pulley, and exhaust i would expect to see close to 250whp using the M62 on a C230k with little to no internal modifications. Conservative estimation of the M62's potential output is around 36hp @ 14,000 RPM

[Proven Guilty]

If he M-112 is also a centrifugal supercharger, it could be a very possible option for those W202 C55 conversion guys that are looking for the real "more go than show" that didn't want to drop $11k on a Kleemann, but it wouldn't be an easy task by any means, either!

[Nitrogenbalance]

I looked into replacing my MP90 magnesun with the MP112 but it just doesn't fit. Unless I wanted to cut out my hood and have the discharge plate exposed like an ole' skool shaker hood setup:D .

The MP112 is a good sized blower which has been making awesome power in engines as big as 6.5L

The MP90 may be overkill for a 2.3L. Not sure, maybe just use the pulley diameter to adjust boost level so things don't explode.