C36 Manual conversion [Archive]

benzboy

11-15-2006, 11:18 PM

Hey All

I have got it into my head recently that it would be great to convert my C36 to a Manual 5 speed.

Looking at a Toyota W58 gearbox as they can handle a fair amount of abuse and are pretty cheap to pick up ($500NZD or so)

I would need a new pedal box, bell housing, flywheel?? and clutch, have I missed anything?

Am I completely insane?

Tips and opinions please

Cheers
Tom

broke driver

11-16-2006, 12:01 AM

Ah.. A Supra transmission..

If the price isn't that much more, i'd suggest going with the turbo supra's manual (R154).. Here's the specsheet..

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?Section=MT&Page=2

Can't give any comments or opinions on the idea of making it a manual, but just food for thought..

-J..

benzboy

11-16-2006, 12:27 AM

Thought about the R154, but they are $$$ and hard to find, the W58 is a pretty stong box.

c280nz

11-16-2006, 01:10 AM

did you get the idea after talking to me :D
um. some computer trickery so the ecu knows your moving etc mite be needed. i would imagine this part to be tricky

and you will need a custom flywheel but hey i now have a spare standard one you can buy off me or take to a machining shop to make a custom one. (they have a magnet in them for crank position sensor so its a bit of an ordeal)
custom drive shaft.
pedal box may be hard to find, the clutch master cylinder uses fluid off the brake master cylinder.
have a look at the post by turbobenz.com builder in boba lounge he may have a cheaper way to do it keeping it mercedes parts

Mercedes DIY

11-16-2006, 01:32 AM

nevermind

therock2689

11-16-2006, 02:54 AM

There are alot of ppl who want to do this, and rightly so. But it would be such an ordeal, i dont think it would be worth it. You would have to do so much crap to get it to work and somehow trick the ECU that its changing teh gears and not you. proly teh best thing to do it get a w203 that you can opt for manual and go from there. But if you got time, money, and alot or smart ppl who know what there doing, by all means, but probly one of the 1st US w202's that manual.

Rock

blind26

11-16-2006, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by therock2689
but probly one of the 1st US w202's that manual.

Rock

We built a W202 manual years ago, and I think there are a few others in the US. Also, the thread poster is not in the US, he is located in New Zealand :cool:

Polestar

11-16-2006, 06:15 AM

We built a W202 manual years ago

So, how did it work out? Was it worth the effort and how much effort was it?

blind26

11-16-2006, 07:17 AM

Totally worth it... We went with a 300E manual trans... But you have to take into consideration that when you swap your trans, you effectivly change your gear ratio, so an investment into a different differential would be highly recommended.

I think with the stock auto diff we were seeing rediculous gearing, like 140 in 4th gear :eek: :D

yvrbenz

11-16-2006, 07:34 AM

Have you given any thought to the Getrag out of a 2.3-16? It can definitely handle the load. Although on the downside it's a non-overdrive unit.

benzboy

11-16-2006, 10:52 AM

Thought about it, and still in the back of my mind (along with LSD if it could be found haha)

But a couple of things, they are not easy to find, esp in this country, and not the cheapest.

Also, if I happend to blow somthing in the Supra box parts are plentiful and not overly expensive

omeyhomey

11-16-2006, 12:16 PM

i did a 5speed swap on my E36 M3 and its actually not as hard as people think. cost $2000 in parts and $1000 in labor, so $3k total. I'd love to have a 5speed C36 b/c i feel that motor has huge potential waiting to be unlocked. You will need pedal box, new master & slave cylinder, reverse light wiring harness, nuetral switch, tranny, adapter for the bell housing, different length driveshaft, and a few other things here and there. more importantly you need to find a tranny with the proper ratios. a 5speed modded C36 would definitely be a force to recon with so i say go for it if you can do it for under $3k. hope that helps

benzboy

11-16-2006, 12:32 PM

What trans did you use for your BMW?

omeyhomey

11-16-2006, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by benzboy
What trans did you use for your BMW?

see for bmw is was much easier b/c there was already a manual transmission counterpart for the M3. you will have to go from scratch so it will cost more than $3k.

omeyhomey

11-16-2006, 04:40 PM

Honestly your best bet would probably be a 6speed manual from a W203. i wouldn't be suprised if all the bolt patterns on the bell housing were identical and if it fit perfectly. Also I bet driveshaft may even be the same length. A 6speed C transmission with the proper clutch/flywheel setup would be able to handle the power. as far as internals i bet they are probably strong enough for 400 crank HP so for C36 application they should be perfect. also all other W203 components should swap over very easily. that is your best bet. hope that helps

blind26

11-16-2006, 06:38 PM

At this point you'r almost talking apples and oranges when you move a 203 trans into the equastion... Depending on the 202 year, you are dealing with an I6 motor... I'm not sure a 203 trans would necessarily 'bolt up' without making a custom bellhousing or adapter...

Abuimad

11-16-2006, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Polestar
So, how did it work out? Was it worth the effort and how much effort was it?

wow its a dream for me to make my 202 a manual....let alone drive a manual c36....wow.....hope it works out,

omeyhomey

11-17-2006, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by blind26
At this point you'r almost talking apples and oranges when you move a 203 trans into the equastion... Depending on the 202 year, you are dealing with an I6 motor... I'm not sure a 203 trans would necessarily 'bolt up' without making a custom bellhousing or adapter...

No, comparing W202-W203 tranny is like comparing red apple to granny smith apple. Benz to Toyota tranny, THATS comparing apples and oranges. Benz hardware is much more likely to adapt well. Alot of times the bolt patterns on the housings are very similar on benzes so it would be much more likely to work than a toyota tranny, plus ... its real OEM benz parts, not a Toyota frankensteined benz, u know. Just my suggestion :)

RacerXofFL

11-17-2006, 05:59 AM

well im the 202 w/a 717.430 in it, and blind, its 130 in 3rd gear on stock 2.80 rear end... Ill roll race anything from 85mph... I have a 3.27LSD in the garage, just not time to install, I used to have a 3.27 open from an ordering misunderstanting. gearing was perfect. The 300e trans had blown the 3.27 diff to pices. I think it can take just about any ammount of abuse. That reminds me, I should take that atf outa there!

omeyhomey

11-17-2006, 01:30 PM

3.27 gears will definitely help but the problem is you'd have to reprogram ESP b/c it couldn't take that big of a difference, it would throw a check light and run in limp mode.

LiVn_It_UP

11-17-2006, 01:41 PM

i have a 89 190E with a 3.2 m104.992 and a 722.369 transmission and have a 3.27 LSD and have no problem's with the rear end (came stock)

as far as running 130 mph in 3rd gear?? i'd have to see it to believe it.. cause mine runs 80 mph at 4'gs in 4th (i have a auto and the 3.27) but i just dont see you making that

blind26

11-17-2006, 02:29 PM

We'll have to get video this weekend, remember, the 300E 5-speed trans is geared differently than an auto trans...

LiVn_It_UP

11-17-2006, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by blind26
We'll have to get video this weekend, remember, the 300E 5-speed trans is geared differently than an auto trans...

130 in 3rd would put you close to what 200mph in 5th?? love to see the video

RacerXofFL

11-17-2006, 05:28 PM

well over 200 if the car really has the tq to do it, I wouldnt even attempt over 150 at this moment with the aerodynamics problems in the car. I can tell you I've taken her to about 140 in 4th and got a wopper of a ticket to boot.... Ill take a video with my cellphone of 3rd this weekend, that is if I can find the room...

Ive done the math btw, if memory serves itll be 227 in 5th at redline.

c280nz

11-17-2006, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by LiVn_It_UP
i have a 89 190E with a 3.2 m104.992 and a 722.369 transmission and have a 3.27 LSD and have no problem's with the rear end (came stock)

as far as running 130 mph in 3rd gear?? i'd have to see it to believe it.. cause mine runs 80 mph at 4'gs in 4th (i have a auto and the 3.27) but i just dont see you making that

is that the same transmission as in a manual c280? m104?
can they handle some abuse can they?

RacerXofFL

11-17-2006, 06:27 PM

Ok heres a pic of 5th gear sub 1000rpm

http://racerx.turbobenz.com/engineswap/5th1K30mph.jpg

Wheelspin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjd56n0nPCI&eurl=]

Slow launch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mMYgwjkm9U&eurl=]

3,4,5 @ 60mph
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDHT3iiv2r4&eurl=

Ok so ppl wanted to see my fucked up gears, here ya go. Keep in mind these are very crowed streets and Im holding a cellphone and driving... no passanger to assist...

so if we loosely say 1000=32-35mph, and I can turn 6600 that would be between 211-231

LiVn_It_UP

11-17-2006, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by c280nz
is that the same transmission as in a manual c280? m104?
can they handle some abuse can they?

transmission come out of a 94 E320 along with the engine (transmission is an automatic)

RacerXofFL

11-17-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by LiVn_It_UP
130 in 3rd would put you close to what 200mph in 5th?? love to see the video

I ran out tonight w/dome light on and cell in hand for you! and you ignore the gearing...

c280nz

11-17-2006, 07:30 PM

i think he was talking about going that fast? which doesnt make sense either but meh.
must be good for fuel economy! how fast can you go in first?

RacerXofFL

11-17-2006, 07:53 PM

1st gear top is 42, but if i pop the clutch at the right second it makes it to 45 lol

oh, btw i loose mpg in 5th, koz its full oad and has no vaccum so it goes to full fuel pressure where as its full vaccum in 4th...

I have plenty of gauges i can take pics for you, I immagine 5th @ 100 would be better then 4th tho...

only tested mpg in the city w/new motor, 22mpg adv

c280nz

11-17-2006, 08:05 PM

yea theres quite a big bounce back on the rev limiter ant there :-) haha not that i know or anything. specially 3rd and 4th cutout
you needa get your ratios down tho, thats rediculus

RacerXofFL

11-17-2006, 08:07 PM

I have a 3.27LSD in the garage, just no lift time, I used to have a 3.27 open with the 2.8 motor, now that I have the 3.2 im afraid im gona be slower in the 1320 koz of all the wheelspin...

c280nz

11-17-2006, 08:28 PM

i woulda thought you woulda been faster because of the lsd?
ive been trying to track down one of those lsds with very little luck. but i am currently getting a flywheel made (was in the shop 2day helping my m8 out on the milling machine) the standard flyheel (dual mass) was 17kg, were aiming for 10kg or less<hopefully less. its gona be pritty on off clutch tho cos i dont have a sprung clutch plate
:D
thats my rant over

RacerXofFL

11-17-2006, 08:31 PM

http://racerx.4nracing.com/clutch/plus.jpg

that plus .050 off the pp mounting surface makes a light switch, I do not advise it.

I use a singelmass, like 45lbs, never weighed it.

c280nz

11-17-2006, 09:54 PM

i can imagine, alota grap with those little puck clutches

RacerXofFL

11-18-2006, 06:21 AM

yeah, rember how i said i HAD a 3.27 open, 4 days afterinstalling that clutch it blew up...

omeyhomey

11-18-2006, 11:24 AM

i would not recommend single mass flywheel. run a lighter dual mass from the newer stick benzes. I must say those M104s do sound fantastic at high rpms.

RacerXofFL

11-18-2006, 01:54 PM

I like the way it runs w/the single, I dont mind the weight, I has some idle problems, and a lighter flywheel wouldnt keep it idleing...

omeyhomey

11-18-2006, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
I like the way it runs w/the single, I dont mind the weight, I has some idle problems, and a lighter flywheel wouldnt keep it idleing...

yes thats b/c in order to maintain idle u have to get new software to bump up idle about 100-200 rpm. Dual mass is there for numerous reasons, idle being one of them along with gearbox chatter.

RacerXofFL

11-18-2006, 02:31 PM

fyi, my car has, and will soon again make more then double stock power numbers...

As soon as you start to increase the engine power over stock, or load the vehicle beyond design parameters, you run into problems. Dual mass flywheels are tuned systems and must be matched to the engine torque curve, engine resonant characteristics, vehicle load curves (including axle ratio/tire size calculations). They work by having a set of springs inserted between two rotating masses (thus dual mass). The springs are sized to soak up some of the resonant vibration from the diesel engine under load conditions. A dual mass fly wheel generally also contains an over torque friction release, so if it gets suddenly overloaded, rather than damage the springs, it slips. This works fine as a safety valve, but if it does it much it burns up. In short, overloaded they burn up and the springs get destroyed and they are worse than if it were a single mass FW.

omeyhomey

11-18-2006, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
fyi, my car has, and will soon again make more then double stock power numbers...

As soon as you start to increase the engine power over stock, or load the vehicle beyond design parameters, you run into problems. Dual mass flywheels are tuned systems and must be matched to the engine torque curve, engine resonant characteristics, vehicle load curves (including axle ratio/tire size calculations). They work by having a set of springs inserted between two rotating masses (thus dual mass). The springs are sized to soak up some of the resonant vibration from the diesel engine under load conditions. A dual mass fly wheel generally also contains an over torque friction release, so if it gets suddenly overloaded, rather than damage the springs, it slips. This works fine as a safety valve, but if it does it much it burns up. In short, overloaded they burn up and the springs get destroyed and they are worse than if it were a single mass FW.

Yes i know that (basic101 stuff) the problem is NOT the dual mass, its the clutch. The E36 M3 guys run stock flywheel up to 400HP nearly 160HP above stock with no problems whatsoever. Clutch is what matters not the springs.

c280nz

11-18-2006, 09:07 PM

i think your right there racerx with the additional hp you wish to make (and hopefully i will to at some stage) the standard dual mass wouldnt be up to it. and i dont have both the money or probebly the ability to track down a newer dual mass and then get it modified to fit my vehicle it would be to $$$

omeyhomey how heavy are the dual mass out of the newer benz?
i think that loosing weight off of my flywheel(hopefuly 5+ kg) should give a bit of a power increase and "free the reving up a bit" possibly let me accelerate faster in first and second gear.
you seem to know your stuff with your pulley making- any positive thoughts about it?

omeyhomey

11-18-2006, 10:29 PM

typcially manufacturers have been making their flywheels lighter and lighter. I wouldn't be suprised if newer ones were 5-6lbs lighter. 95 M3 flywheels were 30lbs, and in 96+ they change them to 23lb flywheels so they revved up much quicker. If you do single mass flywheel though you cannot do crank pulley. Crank pulley is where the real power is in all gears. Lightweight flywheel only really helps in first and second gear. hope that helps.

300EVO

04-18-2007, 07:48 AM

RacerXofFl, I have a 300E manual and was wondering what it took in the pedal box swap department? Did you use the W124/W201 pedals in the W202 or go full custom? If you used it, how close to bolt-in was it?
How about the manual shifter mounting, could you use the stock location & have the linkages line up?

RacerXofFL

04-18-2007, 07:52 AM

I am using w201 pedals, the 4 booster bolt holes lined up, but the top firewall support did not. I bent a pice of steel and used 2 sets of nuts and bolts to fasten it. I do not recomend not using this top bolt, without it depressing the brake moves the entire booster.

This is of course the fit in a w202. Blind mounted the 124 pedals in his w201 with no issue. I can go look, I think my w201 pedals have w124 part numbers. I would need ot go look to verify, but w124 and w201 parts interswap all over the palce in this.

Blind has a w124 4 gate shifter in his w201

I have a W201 3 gate :P

Don

blind26

04-18-2007, 12:15 PM

My pedals do in fact have a w124 part number and bolted straight to a 201... Like Racer was saying, you might just need to fab up a small bracket to make sure the assembly doesn't flex...

The shifter in the w202 lined up where the stock auto did, and if I remember correctly, w201 shift linkages were used...

300EVO

04-18-2007, 02:09 PM

Cool, thanks for all the info. I have a '88 300E that's running the drivetrain from a '95 E320.......then I picked up an '86 5-speed car to donate manual swap parts.
My wife is getting a new '07 C-class soon so her '96 C280 Sport will be available......just weighing out some possibilities......W202 with 3.2 M104 & 300E 5-speed.....hmmm?

Proven Guilty

04-18-2007, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by 300EVO
Cool, thanks for all the info. I have a '88 300E that's running the drivetrain from a '95 E320.......then I picked up an '86 5-speed car to donate manual swap parts.
My wife is getting a new '07 C-class soon so her '96 C280 Sport will be available......just weighing out some possibilities......W202 with 3.2 M104 & 300E 5-speed.....hmmm?
it's been done by a gentleman in miami, and he also used the LSD from the 300E.

turned out really nice, but you'll probably want to go stand alone fuel management, the ECU/TCU work is not plug and play as the fitment is..

300EVO

04-18-2007, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Proven Guilty
it's been done by a gentleman in miami, and he also used the LSD from the 300E.

turned out really nice, but you'll probably want to go stand alone fuel management, the ECU/TCU work is not plug and play as the fitment is..
Funny, my 300E 5-speed is from Miami.
Already been through the ECU swap when I put the M104 into the '88 but thanks for looking out!

Proven Guilty

04-18-2007, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by 300EVO
Funny, my 300E 5-speed is from Miami.
Already been through the ECU swap when I put the M104 into the '88 but thanks for looking out!

if you surf the classifieds, you can find his post in there as well as search for the information regarding his build. perhaps you'll be able to iron out, or avoid some of the bugs through his process.

best of luck!

300EVO

04-18-2007, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
The 300e trans had blown the 3.27 diff to pices.
Racer, just thought I'd mention, I used the diff out of the '95 E320 in my '88 300E. It is a much stouter piece- a good one inch wider than what I pulled out.....had to use the shorter 1/2 shafts with it. Not really sure what ratios were available or if it would be a straight swap into 202. I know as you said 201 to/from 124 seems to work out.
Also, my car is gutted and lightened like Blind's ( & maybe yours?) so a lot of the shock load from trying to get a heavy car moving is gone.

RacerXofFL

04-18-2007, 05:24 PM

Yeah, I would say the added weight of the w202 is not worth the hassle, sell it in autotrader and get another w201 shell, Blind got his for 500$ with heated seats and leather interior :P (no not mbtex)

The 16v LSD is a w124 part number, I know people running 400+ hp in them. Other then the rear closing cover (4 bolt to 2 bolt) its a direct swap.

Blind and I will both be going standalone soon. Mabby we should all meet up at fast-finn's show (1jz w201 in lauderdale)

Don

300EVO

04-18-2007, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by RacerXofFL

Blind and I will both be going standalone soon. Mabby we should all meet up at fast-finn's show (1jz w201 in lauderdale)

Don
That's a long way from SoCal! but I'll be watching for what you come up with on stand-alone & turbo parts. Thanks again for the info.

RacerXofFL

04-19-2007, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by 300EVO
Funny, my 300E 5-speed is from Miami.

Ah, shoulda read...

benzboy

04-19-2007, 01:31 PM

Update

Forgotten about using other manu gearboxes, trying to source out C280 components, people are hopeless are getting back to me with pricing and availibility though.....

Markland556

04-22-2007, 05:54 PM

I have a 300E with a 5 speed, the car got hit and i stole all the interior for an interior swap in my old 300.
The engine head and alot of stuff is gone, but everything for a swap is there. Hit me up if you are interested. Im in Bellevue, and the car is in Moses Lake (eastern washington).
No idea what its worth, but i do know how rare these cars are ;)

Also we have a 190E 2.3-16v that is about ready for sale.