Who needs bricks...I DO PISTONS =)

[Pagz]

OMG here they are....and the F***** new wrist pins dont fit...they said they would fit F*** it...:dead:

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_256_full.jpg


They are a totally different design from the last two,where the skirts are much shorter width wise as well...i havent weighed them yet but they will be ligher for sure due to there being much less material...

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_253_full.jpg


Here you can see the differences between the three types...


http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_252_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_255_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_257_full.jpg



Secretly iv been planning to build a V12 202:D:D:D...

But if that fails i think im heading into the building industry...Egyption style yer 0o

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_254_full.jpg


SOOOO guess ill be waiting for new wrist pins after i email them tomorrow LOL.

[Proven Guilty]

hahahaha OH MY F*****G GOD

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[K_Sport Driver]

dude, you have no kind of f'ing luck whatsoever.

[benzboy]

How the hell can they get it wrong 3 times!!!!! Thats bs

[Pagz]

Its all good:)...when it finally goes it'll catch fire and burn to the ground....then when i finally push my four left over wheels home ill find my gurl has left a note on the table and the house smells like gas....

[jnolte]

JE is retardo!


wtf, mang that is sum crazy ass shit

knock on wood on that burning, jasons did burn!

[Abuimad]

man thats just total bull shit, its good that you seem to have some patience in you...

[Proven Guilty]

Do you have pics of the wrist pins? Are you using stockers since you're using the shot-peened stock rods? I commend their efforts to make you a satisfied customer, and your patience.. but some things just weren't meant to be!

[Mercedes DIY]

is your new HP goal like 500whp or something? dang

[kyo216]

a v12 202? that is just sick man. SIIICK.

[Proven Guilty]

He's just joking. Paul's turbo project has undergone a vast number of bumps in the road, mostly to attribute from poor engineering by his fabricators. He's now on his 3rd set of custom Pistons for his M111K block; hence the 12 pistons. lol

[blind26]

Sorry to hear about your strain of luck...

We were following your build pretty excensivly in the sense of the pistons you were getting, i think it's safe to say we should avoid your fabricator? :p

[Proven Guilty]

gotta admit though, the last set of pistons look f'ng SICK :D

any update on the wrist pins?

[Pagz]

I saw pics of that burnt out 202 a while back....scary

when i got the first set i had light wieght wrist pins sent with them...they were about 10g lighter than stock(same diameter but alittle longer to suit the forged piston)...
iv just rung US and JE is having the pins shipped out ASAP thankfully .....lol

yeh man found out the piston is a much more expensive FSR forged item(whatever that means) and was the only one they could use for the piston guided setup...iv wieghed them on a crap scale and the new ones wiegh between 50-60g lighter than stock....the other forged ones were around 30g lighter...plus the new pins will be alot lighter due to there smaller size we could see a wieght loose of around 70g a piston/pin setup,so around 280g or reciprocating mass....thats ALOOOOT!!!!.

will give you'll an update when they get here!...along with an exact weight.

On a good note at least the suppliers are seeing this through...its been a very expensive exercise for them...
Iv taken over a week off work in the last 6 months just to cart pistons around the city to re-builders/engineers/fabricator/race engine fabricators...not to mention that $60 bar of alloy we were going to use for spacers....but i can use that as a bat if need be.

[rollinrealbig]

thats a nice collection ya got there! hahaha pistons make good ash-trays :p

[Proven Guilty]

yeah, i'm impressed with their committment to making you a satisfied customer. most would just cut their losses by now, and refund your money upon return of the prototypes

[Ashkan's C280]

hey mang i was going to pm you see how things were going when i came across this, nice to hear things are still happening, right or wrong, all the best again with the project, you are the man!

[K_Sport Driver]

it is a nice pyramid though. who needs legos?

[SLAMMED_C]

well this is all kinds of gay!!.. I cant believe they got it wrong again!
well at least the pins will be shipped out soon.
so all hope is not lost.. just need alot of patience is all... like ALOT of patience.
at least things are still moving along.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by Ashkan's C280
hey mang i was going to pm you see how things were going when i came across this, nice to hear things are still happening, right or wrong, all the best again with the project, you are the man!


Thanks dude! =).



very impressed by there effort also!...

reminds me i used to have sh!t loads of lego technic =)

I have thought about given them all out to friends for as ash trays,just block those holes up with alittle resin =)

yer Ross,nothin new just wait until we do the fab an ecu work ill need my own personal bitch section

[mike mac]

how much did they run ya...i wanna do my C 280 and what about the CAM...did u replace that too ? and where can you get a Performance cam?

[rollinrealbig]

... those are some expensive ash-trays

[Pagz]

Yep! =)


Woke up at 2 this morning...the first thing i thought about was the engine builder telling me they took a thou out of the bore for the first set of pistons.....then i clicked...didnt get back to sleep till at least 4...heres why...

The first set JE accidently put there hard anodizing on(dark green)...this is .001" thick as i saw on there web site yesturday,hence why the builders took that from the bore.

The next two sets of pistons are smaller by 001" ....this may or may not see us a forth set....it will however not see a new block...as they cost $6500 ....already asked.

so will keep you'll posted on this outcome...worse case another 1800 out of pocket.

I should have gone to a race engine builder payed the huge cost and be done with it....let that be a lesson to those doing it through other means.


Paul

[Pagz]

for future reference here are the Piston weights...

OEM M111K - 392g
First and second set that didnt work - 360g
New FSR set - 341g

Wrist Pin wieghts...

OEM - 117g
Set that didnt work - 110
New Pins to suit FSR pistons - 90g

Total difference in stock pin/piston to new is 78g each and 312g total reciprocating wieght lost.


New bore size is 90.98mm,new FSR piston is 90.875mm...a tad smaller than i would have liked but it will be ok.


Paul

[Proven Guilty]

thats going to be a huge gain trimming that much fat off the rotating assembly!

*cough* 7500rpm redline *cough* :p

[c280nz]

fukn hell paul,
i dont know what to say to all these mistakes anymore??? its almost turned funny :(
can you get a new set of sleaves or get the bore coated with that same coating to fill the .001" gap?

edit: read next post
yea just chuck the thing 2gether already, i would but i am a bush mechanic

[Pagz]

Originally posted by Proven Guilty
thats going to be a huge gain trimming that much fat off the rotating assembly!

*cough* 7500rpm redline *cough* :p

hahaha yer umm...at this rate even 6 is a long shot :D

[Pagz]

Originally posted by c280nz
fukn hell paul,
i dont know what to say to all these mistakes anymore??? its almost turned funny :(
can you get a new set of sleaves or get the bore coated with that same coating to fill the .001" gap?

edit: read next post
yea just chuck the thing 2gether already, i would but i am a bush mechanic

I have to laugh about it...the luck and all =).
haha NZ bush mechanics not so many here in auckland ay...overflowing back up north:D(and obviously a few down south south =))
yip its officially going back together!,pins should be here this week,engine in the next all according to my master plan...0o

[speedybenz]

Hi Paul,

I was just looking through the data you posted and with a 0.004" clearance between the piston and cylinder you may run into quite a bit of piston slap, leading to additional rocking. Maybe there is another anti-friction coating that could reduce the clearance of the piston to the cylinder.

If it where my engine I would take this issue very seriuosly (sp).

A gap of around 0.0025" would be much better for both piston slap, piston rocking and sealing by the rings.

Good Luck!!

Jeff

[Proven Guilty]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Hi Paul,

I was just looking through the data you posted and with a 0.004" clearance between the piston and cylinder you may run into quite a bit of piston slap, leading to additional rocking. Maybe there is another anti-friction coating that could reduce the clearance of the piston to the cylinder.

If it where my engine I would take this issue very seriuosly (sp).

A gap of around 0.0025" would be much better for both piston slap, piston rocking and sealing by the rings.

Good Luck!!

Jeff

Agreed. I was very worried with the idea of the 2nd set of pistons using spacers for the rods, but come to think of it, the piston slap could be just as detrimental. on chevy rebuilds the clearance was ok, because we would go with a cheaper alternative to forged pistons called hyper-tectic (sp) for use in low budget nitrous small blocks. the gap was ok because the pistons would expand so much once the block warmed up, so you would hear piston slap until operating tempurature and everything was quiet.

offtopic:

Jeff, do you still have that C43 block and rebuild needed trans available?

[Pagz]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Hi Paul,

I was just looking through the data you posted and with a 0.004" clearance between the piston and cylinder you may run into quite a bit of piston slap, leading to additional rocking. Maybe there is another anti-friction coating that could reduce the clearance of the piston to the cylinder.

If it where my engine I would take this issue very seriuosly (sp).

A gap of around 0.0025" would be much better for both piston slap, piston rocking and sealing by the rings.

Good Luck!!

Jeff


Thanks for the concern Jeff/Proven guilty
....this is definalty a concern to say the least....JE directly qouted .003 - .0035 minimum!...im still not happy with .004...however this is my fault(or more so the engine builders)...so i will be wearing the bill next time.

I was told by the JE piston suppliers that the .004 would be fine...
but imo every application is different,it maybe a total abortion.

Its been a very expensive exercise already...and,iv learnt alot!
If things dont run right i wont heistate to pull those pistons out and try again...

Paul

[Pagz]

I just called one of the local race engine builders who use JE pistons...he compared the bore size with a turbo nissan and the result was .004..i then told him i have FSR pistons and he said they need more clearcane than the usual design...so .004 is fine!

PLEASE LET IT BE FINE

[speedybenz]

Paul,

Have you been able to reduce the piston to cylinder head clearance to around 0.030". And please try to get a multi-layer steel head gasket.

Is there anyone in NZ who can Nikasil your engine block. If so you can reset the piston clearance.

What about some thermal coatings on the valves, intake ports, piston top and combustion chamber?

Jeff

[Pagz]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Paul,

Have you been able to reduce the piston to cylinder head clearance to around 0.030". And please try to get a multi-layer steel head gasket.

Is there anyone in NZ who can Nikasil your engine block. If so you can reset the piston clearance.

What about some thermal coatings on the valves, intake ports, piston top and combustion chamber?

Jeff

We have not altered the piston-head clearances.
have not gotten a multi layer head gasket.

Nikasil?...similar to sleeving the bore?,or a coating?

The pistons tops have thermal coatings.
coatings on the combustion chamber roof,intake/exhaust ports and valves were left alone as i didnt think the extra costs were absolutely nessesary.

[germanbloodd]

when you finish with your battle on gettin the right piston/sleeve clearence can we order pistons form je for our m104? i would love a set of "corrected" pistons if they ever get to sending you the right set, good luck man

[Pagz]

If you would like to order pistons for your 104 you will need to send a sample...if the 104 is a piston locating rod setup than make sure you clearly state this...as it will need to be made from a suitable forging,if they have a suitable one!.
If your are planning to run FI setup,i would assume you will not keep the same C/R so you will need to give them all the dimensions they need to give you the compression ratio you desire for that setup...

Paul

[jnolte]

Nikasil is a trademarked electrodeposited oleophilic nickel matrix silicon carbide coating for engine components, mainly piston engine cylinder liners. It was introduced by Mahle 1967, initially developed to allow rotary engine pistons to work directly against the aluminum housing. This coating allowed aluminium cylinders and pistons to work directly against each other with low wear and friction. Unlike other methods, including cast iron cylinder liners, Nikasil allowed very large cylinder bores with tight tolerances and thus allowed existing engine designs to be expanded easily, the aluminium cylinders also gave a much better heat conductivity than cast iron liners which is an important factor for a high output engine.

Porsche started using this on the 1970 917 race car, and later on the 1973 911 RS. Porsche also used it on production cars, but for a short time switched to Alusil due to cost savings for their base 911. Nikasil cylinders were always used for the 911 turbo and RS models. Nikasil coated aluminum cylinders allowed Porsche to build air-cooled engines that had the highest specific output of any engine of their time. Nikasil is still used in today's 911s with great success.

Nikasil was very popular in the 1990s. It was used by companies such as BMW, Ferrari,Honda and Jaguar Cars in their new engine families. However, the sulfur found in much of the world's low quality gasoline caused the Nikasil cylinders used by BMW to break down over time, causing costly engine failures. Eventually, the product was abandoned after BMW was forced to replace a number of M60 V8 engines in the USA and the UK. Nikasil or similar coatings under other trademarks are still widely used in racing engines where low quality gasoline isn't a problem, this include F1, ChampCar and NASCAR engines.

SOURCE: WIKIPEDIA

[trymonlam]

paul,
what are u going to do with the pistons? if you have no use with them and would be willing to give them away, put me down on your list. they probably make very cool soap dish/ashtray.:D

[Pagz]

Originally posted by jnolte
Nikasil is a trademarked electrodeposited oleophilic nickel matrix silicon carbide coating for engine components, mainly piston engine cylinder liners. It was introduced by Mahle 1967, initially developed to allow rotary engine pistons to work directly against the aluminum housing. This coating allowed aluminium cylinders and pistons to work directly against each other with low wear and friction. Unlike other methods, including cast iron cylinder liners, Nikasil allowed very large cylinder bores with tight tolerances and thus allowed existing engine designs to be expanded easily, the aluminium cylinders also gave a much better heat conductivity than cast iron liners which is an important factor for a high output engine.

Porsche started using this on the 1970 917 race car, and later on the 1973 911 RS. Porsche also used it on production cars, but for a short time switched to Alusil due to cost savings for their base 911. Nikasil cylinders were always used for the 911 turbo and RS models. Nikasil coated aluminum cylinders allowed Porsche to build air-cooled engines that had the highest specific output of any engine of their time. Nikasil is still used in today's 911s with great success.

Nikasil was very popular in the 1990s. It was used by companies such as BMW, Ferrari,Honda and Jaguar Cars in their new engine families. However, the sulfur found in much of the world's low quality gasoline caused the Nikasil cylinders used by BMW to break down over time, causing costly engine failures. Eventually, the product was abandoned after BMW was forced to replace a number of M60 V8 engines in the USA and the UK. Nikasil or similar coatings under other trademarks are still widely used in racing engines where low quality gasoline isn't a problem, this include F1, ChampCar and NASCAR engines.

SOURCE: WIKIPEDIA

Thanks man,that Wikipedia site is a very helpful tool!!!

[Pagz]

Originally posted by trymonlam
paul,
what are u going to do with the pistons? if you have no use with them and would be willing to give them away, put me down on your list. they probably make very cool soap dish/ashtray.:D

hahaha i have thought about it and still am thinking about it...i may use them to build a small momento for the trouble iv been through in the last year!...however your on the list if i do give them away;)

[RemoLexi]

ive got a question ... .004 clearence is unusual to me .. if I was to do forged pistons id aim for .002 since well, my last project with a .001 starting clearence seized. (it wasnt my idea to start with such a low clearence)

but okay so let the clearnce be .004, does that mean that the maximum wear can exceed .007 without having to rebore/hone?

im assuming your maximum wear limit would be .009 then right ? and when you had it bored, how much did you have it bored to the max. of like .060 for thin-wall blocks or did you leave some room in there incase you needed a rebore in the future?

PS, intrested in the unused pistons you have there ... wanna talk about those ?? LoL

[Pagz]

Originally posted by RemoLexi
ive got a question ... .004 clearence is unusual to me .. if I was to do forged pistons id aim for .002 since well, my last project with a .001 starting clearence seized. (it wasnt my idea to start with such a low clearence)

but okay so let the clearnce be .004, does that mean that the maximum wear can exceed .007 without having to rebore/hone?

im assuming your maximum wear limit would be .009 then right ? and when you had it bored, how much did you have it bored to the max. of like .060 for thin-wall blocks or did you leave some room in there incase you needed a rebore in the future?

PS, intrested in the unused pistons you have there ... wanna talk about those ?? LoL

I believe theres a few factors to consider before you can gauge what clearance you will need...
clearance is affected by forging material used,piston diameter,engine operating conditions.

The engine was bored .02 to accomodate the first piston set,what we didnt know was the last set was slightly smaller because it doesnt have the green hard coating...hence why i have a large clearance...there is still room for bore enlargening.

I have no idea what the were limit is,no doubt we will find it,thats hope it doesnt happen to soon;)

heheh yeh,there not any good to you,unless you open your engine and find its a crank located rod setup;)

[RemoLexi]

so the pistons are just too small. :( thats sucks.

"heheh yeh,there not any good to you,unless you open your engine and find its a crank located rod setup"

I dont think I catch what your saying ...

[Pagz]

The Rods in our M111 engines(well mine anyway) are located by the piston,which means the small end of the rod fits snug into the centre of the piston,this keeps the rod central.

Most engines use crank located rods,which means the crank holds the rod central and is free inside the piston.

if you were to install either of my two sets of unused pistons,you would find the rod would shift off centre under operation and that doesnt help engine life;)

[trymonlam]

you can make something cool with all these unused pistons. check out this guy's coffee table
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2007/01/28/for-the-confirmed-bachelor-rover-v8-coffee-tables/

[RemoLexi]

Hmm ... so anyway to have the rods so they dont have play ?? washer ?!?! stupid idea .. :o but its a start.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by RemoLexi
Hmm ... so anyway to have the rods so they dont have play ?? washer ?!?! stupid idea .. :o but its a start.

Yep at one stage that was the plan,i had the pistons in at the engineers...they were to machine the inner sides of the wrist pin bose's...i also purchased a 1M bar of T3 6061 alloy to have the washers cut from....If i remember correctly the engineers got alittle shakey on the fact these where fully finished pistons with all the coatings...which ment one mistake and it was all over...so i questioned the piston suppliers and they decided maybe it wasnt such a good idea so they made the third set...

i think spacers would work,but how well and for how long im not sure.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by trymonlam
you can make something cool with all these unused pistons. check out this guy's coffee table
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2007/01/28/for-the-confirmed-bachelor-rover-v8-coffee-tables/

Pretty damn cool!