lightened flywheel c280 m104

[c280nz]

here are a few pictures for you guys of what i just got my friend to build for me.
My new flywheel> machined down from billit, weighs about 8-9kg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2512000-2512999/2512660_3_full.jpg

this is a picture of the old dual mass flywheel which weighed 17kg and was basically stuffed (heaps of play and slop in the dampeners) and quite worn out face
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2512000-2512999/2512660_4_full.jpg

here is a picture of my gearbox out and semi cleaned up about to go back into the car (im also going to fix up some floppy shift linkages http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2512000-2512999/2512660_2_full.jpg

and here is a pic of my car up on my dodge bush axle-stands (old rims :D )
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2512000-2512999/2512660_1_full.jpg

also while my car was apart i replaced my rear main crank seal and gearbox input shaft seal as they were both leaking.

i havent fully put it back together yet i hope to do so in the next few days and i will fill you in on how it goes.

[kyo216]

are you going to get a new pressure plate?

[c280nz]

i also have a new clutch and pressure plate

[Pagz]

NICE!,
results will be interesting!:)....dyno?

[benzaddict]

That looks sweet!! I would love o see more pics and get a few more details. Did you remember the magnet for the crank sensor? Would your friend be interested in making a second one? I'd love one for my 190e-3.6 project.

[blind26]

Thats a hot flywheel...

Definantly a weight improvement...

[omeyhomey]

Be careful, removing the stock dual mass flywheel is not recommended, its there for a reason. You will now be putting much more strain on the crankshaft by removing the elaborate system of springs to help adbsorb all the engine pulses.

[RacerXofFL]

omeyhomey: aren't u the guy who owned the "s32" with that bobo exhaust setup?

you keep talking about trannys what makes you an authority?

c280nz: Im very impressed, I have been kicking around doing this myself. Can it be someone else is using my tranny!!! Finally!!!

Which model do you have 717.430?

I just put new rear end in lastnight, youll need one too...

Don

[c280nz]

thanks for all the good coments
im etching to put it back together


Originally posted by benzaddict
That looks sweet!! I would love o see more pics and get a few more details. Did you remember the magnet for the crank sensor? Would your friend be interested in making a second one? I'd love one for my 190e-3.6 project.
yea mounted crank position sensor
hmm i could ask him, but im guessing by the time it got built and shiped half way around the world it mite be easier to get one made locally and then have input all the way through the build :confused: alot of mates rates labour.

omeyhomey i understand were you are coming from with the removal of the dual mass. i think it should be ok though
i dont intend on doing any excess ive launches ;)

[c280nz]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
omeyhomey: aren't u the guy who owned the "s32" with that bobo exhaust setup?

you keep talking about trannys what makes you an authority?

c280nz: Im very impressed, I have been kicking around doing this myself. Can it be someone else is using my tranny!!! Finally!!!

Which model do you have 717.430?

I just put new rear end in lastnight, youll need one too...

Don
im not sure what model gearbox i have? ill check the number.
yea 8+kg less spinning should make an improvement.
ill run the standard diff until i need to replace it - damn no lsd's in New Zealand out of the 190e at the moment. i wana lsd
:(

[c280nz]

few more pictures where i got most of the weight reduction from
back of new flywheel
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2512000-2512999/2512660_5_full.jpg

back of standard flywheel
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2512000-2512999/2512660_6_full.jpg

[RacerXofFL]

Well if you find someone who wont shipp it to you, Ill relay it to you if you need... I also may have an extra soon. I've had my flywheel out 3x since I converted, my biggest lesson learned: DO NOT USE A PUCK CLUTCH! between that and a single mass I destroyed the drive train, and the car was nearly un-streetable...

[RacerXofFL]

Originally posted by c280nz
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2512000-2512999/2512660_5_full.jpg


UGH!!!

just noticed, cut your segments, or the car will not run.

[c280nz]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
Well if you find someone who wont shipp it to you, Ill relay it to you if you need... I also may have an extra soon. I've had my flywheel out 3x since I converted, my biggest lesson learned: DO NOT USE A PUCK CLUTCH! between that and a single mass I destroyed the drive train, and the car was nearly un-streetable...
thankyou, i may have to take you up on that offer.
i have gone for a standard clutch

segments-
we had a large debate about if that was necessary or not.
and decided well leave it whole and once we had it bolted onto crank we would try.
but thanks for saving us the time
i havent put it in yet, will get the three segments done over the next week :(

racerx what do the segments do?

[benzaddict]

racerx what do the segments do? [/B]

They are segments for cylinder/ignition timing for the crank sensor.

[RacerXofFL]

one of the 190rev guys built his conversion w/segments, but no magnet, so my guess is it fires #1 cyl every segment till it discovers the true #1, so it takes him 30+ seconds of cranking to start. So to recap, no magnet, it will run, no segments, never tried! But I know they are needed.

other thing, get it balanced, ive had my flywheel attached to 3 new rear mains and all of them have leaked, the only thing i can come up with its outta balance, I will balace the whole rotating assemby in jan when I go back on boost.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by omeyhomey
Be careful, removing the stock dual mass flywheel is not recommended, its there for a reason. You will now be putting much more strain on the crankshaft by removing the elaborate system of springs to help adbsorb all the engine pulses.


I woudnt ignore this,my Engine balancer(and many others) were hard against changing out the dual mass setup.

Also definalty a must to get it balanced,and somhow setup the sensor pickups again.

You oem flywheel is totally different to mine!.

[c280nz]

ive got the magnet but no segments, soon i will have both.
and had it balanced.
the m104 came with and without a dual mass flywheel from factory :confused:

[omeyhomey]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
omeyhomey: aren't u the guy who owned the "s32" with that bobo exhaust setup?

you keep talking about trannys what makes you an authority?


Don


THe fact that I had one of the fastest if not the fastest NA 3.0L E36 M3s in the country. I multiple tranny swaps on the car and did it all myself. The fact that I have been modding cars for close to a decade. The fact that I actually know a thing about engine theory. THe S32 was an inside joke between my friends and I, thats why i did it. My real car is an E55 AMG.

I know you have alot of enthusiasm but you need your knowledge to catch up to that enthusiasm or you are going to do alot of damage to your car.

[RacerXofFL]

This is true, people need to STOP fighting the single mass, I HAVE the mb tq spec book listing the SINGLE MASS on a M104 if someone questions me 1 more time I'm scanning it and telling you all to stfu... MY SINGLE MASS is a 300E OEM single mass...... It is 100% un modified, I have talked to Irish mikes in orlando and they want me to lighten it with them, BUT this is my DD and I cant do 2 weeks down time.

SO Im on the market for a new DD and allready have plans to leave the car a few places to have all the details done that I cant do. I have an unbalanced? flywheel, driveshaft, mis adjusted linkages, and many other details that need machinery I dont have access to. My dad works for a dealer, not a machine shop.

[omeyhomey]

Originally posted by 23K
I woudnt ignore this,my Engine balancer(and many others) were hard against changing out the dual mass setup.

Also definalty a must to get it balanced,and somhow setup the sensor pickups again.

You oem flywheel is totally different to mine!.

yup, LTW single mass flywheel is one of the most dangerous mods you can do to the engine. Yet for some reason the industry supports it so much. It directly puts straight from the entire drivetrain onto the crankshaft with no absorbtion of vibrations of any kind. Running a lightweight Flywheel with a sprung hub clutch is NOT the same thing either. Dual mass is there for a reason.

[RacerXofFL]

Originally posted by omeyhomey
THe fact that I had one of the fastest if not the fastest NA 3.0L E36 M3s in the country. I multiple tranny swaps on the car and did it all myself. The fact that I have been modding cars for close to a decade. The fact that I actually know a thing about engine theory. THe S32 was an inside joke between my friends and I, thats why i did it. My real car is an E55 AMG.

I know you have alot of enthusiasm but you need your knowledge to catch up to that enthusiasm or you are going to do alot of damage to your car.


Dude, I know your an idiot by that comment right there. First rule of modding cars. Theres always someone faster, anyone claiming to be the fastest is prob the slowest. I ran 17psi on my 104 motor years ago, yeah I blow stuff up, thats my motto! ask my friends, I ENJOY breaking things, bc then I get to do them the way I want them.

[omeyhomey]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
This is true, people need to STOP fighting the single mass, I HAVE the mb tq spec book listing the SINGLE MASS on a M104 if someone questions me 1 more time I'm scanning it and telling you all to stfu... MY SINGLE MASS is a 300E OEM single mass...... It is 100% un modified, I have talked to Irish mikes in orlando and they want me to lighten it with them, BUT this is my DD and I cant do 2 weeks down time.

SO Im on the market for a new DD and allready have plans to leave the car a few places to have all the details done that I cant do. I have an unbalanced? flywheel, driveshaft, mis adjusted linkages, and many other details that need machinery I dont have access to. My dad works for a dealer, not a machine shop.

Manfacturers all moved away from single mass flywheels a long time ago, just b/c it came stock like that does not make it acceptible. E30 bmws also have single masses but BMW realize in the late 80s that it was not safe enough so all bmws since have had dual mass. same with mercedes, mercedes just lagged in time to make the change over. You'd be hard pressed to find a stick car today that comes iwth a single mass, b/c it doesn't happen.

[RacerXofFL]

Originally posted by omeyhomey
yup, LTW single mass flywheel is one of the most dangerous mods you can do to the engine. Yet for some reason the industry supports it so much. It directly puts straight from the entire drivetrain onto the crankshaft with no absorbtion of vibrations of any kind. Running a lightweight Flywheel with a sprung hub clutch is NOT the same thing either. Dual mass is there for a reason.

oh and what of the WORST feature of a benz driveline 100x more effective then dual mass. You all know what Im talking about we have all blown them....


FLEXDISC's

they are stupid rubberbands and u have 2 of them... you have upto 1" or more of rubbet to compress to reduce driveline shock.

[omeyhomey]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
Dude, I know your an idiot by that comment right there. First rule of modding cars. Theres always someone faster, anyone claiming to be the fastest is prob the slowest. I ran 17psi on my 104 motor years ago, yeah I blow stuff up, thats my motto! ask my friends, I ENJOY breaking things, bc then I get to do them the way I want them.

hehe, so I'm the idiot b/c you keep blowing your shit up haha. The hipocrisy does not end.

[RacerXofFL]

I dont mind if you have an opinion we all do. I do not want a flame war in this guys thread. Hes doing the right thing. Your envy is clouding progress...

[omeyhomey]

my envy?! heheh. talk about denial. its not a matter of envy. I am just warning him of the huge dangers, whether he wants to take that risk is up to him but I was doing him a service and providing him with a fair warning that it could result in disaster. thats all

[RacerXofFL]

I do not want to speak on his behalf, but we all know the risks of modding a car, if your logic is sound a tq converter is a much better device, and it would prevent mis shifts that could redline and blow the motor. I am telling you I have been on a single mass for 2 years, no knock sensor warnings or anything, I pulled my tired old 155K 2.8L and put in a sub 80K 3.2 to freshen things up. Also the old 2.8 is being used in the devlopment of a new equial length mani.

Please, 1 warning is enough. You do not seem to have a strong benz backround. I was raised by a 10+ year mercedes master tech, many many times within 10 places of the free trip to germany. He has been teaching apprentices for 20 years.

We were running propane on his 300cd 10 years ago! with over 20psi of boost. I have well over 100 years of experience of techs like uncles to me. I was raised in a dealership, water fights in the dispatch office. Shooting vaccum caps with blow off guns, all the fun that could be had in a dealership.


NONE of my MERCEDES MASTER TECH "uncles" told me to put a dual mass in.

Please stay outa this guys build.

[Pagz]

man things got away fast here lol:D...

I beleive it would have had a sinlge mass back in early 90's...i would also guess it to have been a similar wieght!...

....wieght is the bigger issue here.

Wieght is used to absorb various harmonic vibrations...you remove it...you alter the frequency at which the flywheel does this job.

Harmonic vibration causes reduced engine/Transmission life...however if this is of no concern than this wont be a problem.

other issues with removing to much mass is idle quality,streetabitly and noise/vibration.

I myself have never lightened a flywheel,i have tried and been talked out of it...so i cant comment first hand....however,
I believe the words of local race engine builders and balancers...

Good luck with the flywheel logan i hope it runs smooth!

Paul

[RacerXofFL]

Originally posted by 23K
other issues with removing to much mass is idle quality,streetabitly and noise/vibration.

Paul

Like I said, my car stalls after 30 sec EVERY start, no codes nuthing, replaced overload relay and a few other things, IF I lighten the flywheel it will never survive the attempted stall, whatever causes it...

I am buying a new DD and going standalone, lightened, balanced, and weight reductions.

Its gona be my weekend/toy car...

Ill keep ya posted. But Irish Mike will have it as soon as I get a new car, All the parts I want in the car are there (3.2 5spd LSD) just need the loose ends ironed out.

[c280nz]

ohhh well....
i have now spent the money and alot of my friends time to make my new lighter flywheel.
i did not have any of this warning before the build, maby i should have posted a question, i dont claim to be an expert, heck i dont know much at all.
im just going to put it in my car and drive it, i drive my cars reasonably hard but dont like launching as that is excessivly hard on the driveline.
i feel it will free up the reving in first second and third a bit and thus when crusing along i will be able to just give it some gas and itl pick up alot quicker.

if it is hard to drive or brakes anything i will probebly just put my standard flywheel back in.

-some people have warned me, and some people have told me it should be alright :confused:
anything can be broken in standard form, or modified, i feel it is just how you drive it.
il let you guys know how it goes.

[omeyhomey]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL

Please, 1 warning is enough. You do not seem to have a strong benz backround.

Please stay outa this guys build.


Actually my family has owned over 8 mercedes ranging from the w123 all the way to the w220 and the new R171. I have more than enough experiences around benzes, infact the M3 was the first non benz in my entire family, but i soon made the switch back w/ my E55 AMG.

and just b/c one is a master tech does not make them a genius on dealing with aftermarket modifications. I have seen numerous BMW master techs who are completely clueless about aftermarket modifications. One of my buddies had a BMW master tech install a set of cams and the motor blew up. Master tech doesn't mean crap these days.

[c280nz]

i understand and thankyou for your warnings omeyhomey.
from your concern and advice i know that i will need to be more careful than i first thought with this modification.
and can you guys stop arguing over who knows the most.
you both know your stuff more than the guy your helping (me)

i appreciate and respect everyones advice on this mod so far.
:)

[c280nz]

-twice- opps

[omeyhomey]

no problem, just trying to be helpful thats all. A light weight duall mass flywheeld would not be a bad idea. Alot of the M3 guys replace the older dual mass flywheels with a newer duall mass flywheels b/c they are as much as 7 pounds lighter but still have all the neceesary internal springs and etc to ensure the engines safety. thats your best bet (perhaps a newer W203 dual mass will weigh much less. u never know.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by omeyhomey
and just b/c one is a master tech does not make them a genius on dealing with aftermarket modifications. I have seen numerous BMW master techs who are completely clueless about aftermarket modifications. One of my buddies had a BMW master tech install a set of cams and the motor blew up. Master tech doesn't mean crap these days.

Hmmm exact words i deleted before i hit "submit reply" last time...lol

It will be a good test on the engine logan!...as you say I guess if it doesnt go right you can always stick the OEM back in!...fingers crossed it works out man!:)

[omeyhomey]

remember if you swap flywheels you also have to swap clutch discs. as long as you match clutch & flywheels together and they fit in the housing with no fitment issues it should work just fine. hope that helps.

[c280nz]

my car is now back together with the new flywheel in
and i think it is way better
for those of you who know what im talking about it has changed the sloppy delayed power of these engine gearbox setups.
the power is right there and it finally feels like the engine is connected to the ground instead of through a slush ass dual mass. <> It feels like a normal manual car now

example: like when i go round a corner in second at about 60-70kmph i can just boot it and the power is right there and it lights up for nice powerslides which it didnt do before :cool:

to be honest, any damage i do to the engine trans or the car is worth the gain! the hole car can burn down in a big raining mess because of the new flywheel....
and i dont care aslong as i get to drive it a few times before it does im happy :D
haha bad attitude about it i know!

[c280nz]

but on a more clinical level about the whole project

PRO's
-makes the car rev alot more freely
-noticable improvement in acceleration in first and second (and a little bit in third forth and fifth)
-the power now seems to be right there, quicker on for overtaking etc
-it will light the tires under acceleration now and it didnt before(first gear) , and even more so during cornering in second
-more responsive engine braking
-if i take someone in the car they wouldnt notice the mod if i didnt tell them (meaning to the passanger the car feels similar)
-relatively easy to install, as far as gearbox removals goes.


CON's
-complicated to build
-could be $$$ expensive to build
-will put more strain on the driveline/engine
-is now a bit more rough if i labour the engine (eg in a high gear with the revs down between 1000-2000rpm) but this is bad on an engine anyway
-can be a bit grabby when slowly leaving the lights but just takes a little more clutch care to be smooth.

in my view the pros outweigh the cons

thankyou for your views and help through the topic, without some help my car would have never gone (the segments)

[RacerXofFL]

Originally posted by c280nz
to be honest, any damage i do to the engine trans or the car is worth the gain! the hole car can burn down in a big raining mess because of the new flywheel....
and i dont care aslong as i get to drive it a few times before it does im happy :D
haha bad attitude about it i know!

Now you know how I feel, and when something else breaks, you get to make something better, and get better gains, wonder y you cant power over in 1&2, what gears do you have outback, its stamped on the bottom right corner from the back end. You must have a 2.80 set, i can light my tires up in 3rd now that i have the 3.27LSD back in...

[Proven Guilty]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
Now you know how I feel, and when something else breaks, you get to make something better, and get better gains, wonder y you cant power over in 1&2, what gears do you have outback, its stamped on the bottom right corner from the back end. You must have a 2.80 set, i can light my tires up in 3rd now that i have the 3.27LSD back in...

Did you guys do the 5-speed tranny and LSD swap from a 300E? There's speculation that they are direct fit plug 'n play.

edit: *into a W202 C280

[c280nz]

Originally posted by Proven Guilty
Did you guys do the 5-speed tranny and LSD swap from a 300E? There's speculation that they are direct fit plug 'n play.

edit: *into a W202 C280
my car is a c280 manual from factory
and i think racerx uses the lsd out of 190e 16v?
which i want but dont have yet :)

[RacerXofFL]

Originally posted by c280nz
my car is a c280 manual from factory


WTF!?!?!?!?!

Now I know you looked at what tranny model you had before you put it all together!?

Your the only car Ive EVER heard of w/a104 and a 5 speed other then the sl300/320's

what was the country of origin, and can I have your vin #, you can email it to me at: racerxoffl@gmail.com

Do you have manual seates, right or left had drive!!! Im sooo curious.

I can look up your parts only with your vin, I cant browse other countrys parts w/o a vin#

[RacerXofFL]

Originally posted by c280nz
and i think racerx uses the lsd out of 190e 16v?


Yes my Tranny comes from a 300e, it is nearly a direct swap other then the lack of the magnet.

The Diff is from a US 2.3-16v

[Pagz]

Originally posted by c280nz
my car is now back together with the new flywheel in
and i think it is way better
for those of you who know what im talking about it has changed the sloppy delayed power of these engine gearbox setups.
the power is right there and it finally feels like the engine is connected to the ground instead of through a slush ass dual mass. <> It feels like a normal manual car now

example: like when i go round a corner in second at about 60-70kmph i can just boot it and the power is right there and it lights up for nice powerslides which it didnt do before :cool:

to be honest, any damage i do to the engine trans or the car is worth the gain! the hole car can burn down in a big raining mess because of the new flywheel....
and i dont care aslong as i get to drive it a few times before it does im happy :D
haha bad attitude about it i know!


Good to hear its all in and working man!,it must make a big difference removing all that mass...thats for sure!!....
any chance of see'n a dyno at some stage?

Paul

[c280nz]

may get to see a dyno after christmas im not sure :-s
id rather spend the $$$ on the next mod im gona force on the car ;)

[Pagz]

Originally posted by c280nz
may get to see a dyno after christmas im not sure :-s
id rather spend the $$$ on the next mod im gona force on the car ;)


Forced induction:p

[RacerXofFL]

When your ready, I'll have a nice 104 single kit, no need to gather 3 bad sets of pistons :p

edit: srry 23K you asked for it.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by RacerXofFL
When your ready, I'll have a nice 104 single kit, no need to gather 3 bad sets of pistons :p

edit: srry 23K you asked for it.

wheres that 202K kit when i needed it:D

[RacerXofFL]

No replacement for ??? i dont play in 4 bangers anymore.

[c280nz]

my chassis code is: wdb2020282f068665

i live in New Zealand the car was new here
and our country is right hand drive.
they make the same cars as this for the european market, and NZ of course :D

what is manual seates??? u ask about racerx??

i just put my car up in the gallery for anyone interested

[RacerXofFL]

manual, aka not power... I have found the Right had side seat frame (our passangers in old c220's were non power seats) but Ive never found a Left seatframe that was mechanical...

[c280nz]

oh im with ya now :p
both my front seats are manual adjustment

[RacerXofFL]

oh the parts guys are gona hate me tommorow!!! Time to order a set of CF seats like Blinds... I havnt bought them koz I want to take all the 27 way power seats out... Yes, Im retiring my 202 from daily driving, and starting gutting it, soon as I find a w203 c32, so the new question will be which do you wana run the old tired w202 c280 (c32 turbo gutted) or the c32 amg :p

Im so excited!