Oil Sludge Sludging

[xvvvz]

This is a continuation of the following thread that concerned oil changes:

http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=114409#post114409

>>If it was not a big problem. Then NB would not have extended the warranty's of 98-01 vehicles to 10 years-150K miles...JUST for oil sludging.<<

Do you have any website links for this so that we can all bookmark it? I have seen references to a warranty extension but if I remember right they referenced 8 years. 10 years would be great news.

>>My car was serviced regularly & with Mobil1.<<

Yeah, mine too. That is what has me worried. They just changed it again recently since they had to fix an oil leak under warranty and it still used Mobil 1 synthetic. Not sure of the weight though. I just always hoped the dealer would know what is best to use.

>>Cleaner/flush is good IF you are going to rip into your eninge. BUT if you rip into your engine, you wont need the flush...get it <<

You inspired me to read up on this today and it seems the most recommended thing if you are not tearing down the engine is to just do lots of oil changes (one reference said at 500 mile intervals for a while). Like you said, it sounds like engine cleaners that cause a bunch of gunk to be released into the oil stream in a short period of time can cause more harm then good.

>>For the most part, sludging can be determined by over consumption of oil If you have to add oil to the engine. Yet, it doesnt burn any & not leaking any you have a problem.<<

I am not quite sure that I fully understand. Could you please rephrase?

If your engine oil doesn’t go real dark after say, 2000 miles from an oil change, and you don’t have very little oil consumption/loss after 5k miles (1/2 to ¼ quart for arguments sake), would you say that sludging probably isn’t an issue?

>> About the same time, the piston slap started<<

Here is a great article on piston slap for those like me who are reading this and need refresher on piston slap:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/020320.htm

When you mentioned piston slap, it made me think of the following thread where a bunch of us discussed a similar sounding noise that seems common with MB engines.

http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6666

It is so hard to know if it is just “normal” or if there is a real problem such as piston slap.

>>It is fairly easy to clean a sludger. Rip off the head & timing gear, oil pan.<<

For some people… that would be those of you with knowledge, tools and a well equipped garage!

[Denlasoul]

For clarification, it was my understanding that the MB-oil lawsuit was due to Dealerships that serviced 98-00 cars with FSS with regular oil instead of Mobile 1 synthetic during 10K mile intervals.

I'll try and find the links.

[renerodz]

Denlasoul,

Your statement is correct.

Rene

[Espresso]

Good idea on splitting up the thread.

For the sludge warranty info. You should call the dealer & ask. Dont just talk with anyone. Talk with the Svc dept manager, or the district rep. Do not expect MB to contact you regarding the warranty, because they only give it to people who have had their car serviced at proper intervals, ect.. so if yo udo not go to teh dealership, then you wont know. If you do, then you do( this doesnt apply to Panama though..that that is a big f***ing suprise) ofcourse my car is not covered even though it has had religous service at the dealer, not is anyone elses..especially those S500 owners.
Here is the google.com search I did, because there are WAY to many sites that talk about it.
Here is a link to a bit of detailed info
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=981&scid=149

Here is the google for more info & sites..
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Mercedes+sludge+warranty&spell=1

Here is a link to benzworld about someone who foud out about the waranty.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w163-m-class/1235031-just-picked-up-my-1999-ml430.html

About the warranty issue. Apparently what happened is that MB in their haste to spout about a 10,000 oil change, they FORGOT to mention that is with SYN oil only.
So they extended all vehicles affected from IIRC 1998-2001 to the 10 year warranty, because of the amount of people filing class action for sludge issues.

The dealer will know what is most EXPENSIVE to use, not always what is best. Because the guy that gets paid by the hour & not flat rate wont have a clue what he is puttign into your engine except what comes out of the pump.Ofcourse they will use Mobil 1, but if you give them another oil as long as it meets your cars standards then you will be fine.


Lots of oil changes...YUP. Cleaners & flushes SUCK & should NEVER be used. The ATF & kerosene do work a little because they actually MELT the sludge. I have used ATF many times, but nothing is as proper as a tear down & clean. Kerosene yeah it does, but like everyone knows..what happens when fuel gets in your oil? Can you be sure you got ALL of it out? Will you change the oil 5 times in as many days? Doubtful. So whats left? A tear down.
But like I said before, if you are unsure about wheter your car is effected. Either take off the valve cover or have someone do it for ya. Also that crud you see in the oil fill hole...IS NOT NORMAL, as some say it is. If you dont have it, more than likely you are fine.

As for the consumption of oil. If you find yourself constantly topping off the oil, yet you burn none(no tailpipe smoke) & you are not leaking any. YOU NEED TO WORRY. What is happening is the oil is caking up everywhere in the valve cover area, crevices & corners of the block, ect & sludging, it accumulates & makes your oil level lower, without actually burning any of it off or leaking it anywhere. In bad/extreme cases it causes hot spots with can lead to detionation, misfires & this is what causes the DEL to come on throwing a misfire code.

If you oil stays clean & you dont burn much over the course of 5,000miles you havg nothing to worry about.

As for the piston slap. abotu eth best way to check(unlike what that site said, but it could work) is to take out the sparkplugs except the one you are checking. When all valves ar eclosed on the compression stroke & you feel the resistance. Back off the crank & then go forward, just moving the crank back & forth. If you hear a metallic wrapping sound. THAT is piston slap. I have it in the #1, 3, 5 & 6 cyls. Only really noticeable durning startup..not just cold, but WHENEVER I start the car & whenever it kicks down a gear while driving. No it isnt the flywheel either. I checked that also.

As for being fairly easy. Yes, I was refering to those whom to like to work on their cars. But ALOT of the sludge can be taken care of by just removing the valve covers, oil pan ect. Then giving the engine & parts a good clean. If teh oil has no mor esludge to attach its self to then it cant build up & cause problems. Almost anyone with a decent set of tools can clean the sludge...well tools & ALOT( & I mean ALOT) of Brake-Kleen. If you have time you can drop off the VC's( Or VC depending on your engine) & oilpan intake ect.. to a radiator cleaner & they can hot tank the stuff for ya. It's normally about $30 a piece.

The kicker is to get the sludge before it gets you. If you can get it all cleaned out, before you start getting CELs' then you'll be fine. But one you get that mis-fire CEL, it's pretty much alreay too late. But like I said if you take off teh VC(s) & it's clean, you are good to go. All it will cost ya is a set of gaskets.

[renerodz]

Hey Espresso,

Thanks for the detailed information. You brought some interesting things that may help explain some issues I have.

My '00 C280 is on Mobil1 0W-40 since day 1, now at 80K miles uses not a drop of oil in 10K miles changes.

Now, my '99 ML320 is a different story. This engine, which is virtually the same as the '00 C280, had it's first 2 changes at 13K miles intervals per FSS using dino oil by the dealer. This is shown from the records when I bough it at 30K miles. At 30K miles I immediately changed the oil to Mobil1 15W-50 at 10K miles intervals to as of today with 106K miles. The truck uses 1 qt. every 5K miles since I have it. No smoke and no leaks. By MB standards this is normal, for them to consider an oil consumption test it must be way under 1 qt over under 1K miles, or to be exact every 600 miles. Although I've been told many times that this is normal consuption, to me 1qt. of oil is alot oil and it must be going into a wrong place. I know it could be a mild ring, sleeve, valve, evaporation, etc. problem.

I was told that if any sludge I had at the beginning because of the use of dino oil, it should be gone by now by using the Mobil1 for over 70K miles. I noticed on my last change though, a little bit of very soft sludge on the oil filler cap (I always take a good look at this cap when changing oil, maybe an old fart habit). I cleaned and I am looking at it again when I change the oil again. Also my oil consumption went down on the last change to about 1 qt. every 3.5K miles.

I need to change the drivers side valve cover gasket in the next couple of weeks and will take a good look at what I see in there, I will take pictures to post. If I knew before that by looking under this cover will show signs of sludge i would've done it when I learned about the issue, I though the sludge will accumulate only on oil passages and the inside of the block or so. Also I noticed that MB used to show the Mobil1 15W-50 in the approved oil list for these FSS engines, but it was removed and they only kept the Mobil1 0W-40, still I continue to use the 15W-50 which I guess is what my engine is used to.

About the cold start tapping: Both of my cars do this tapping for 1 to 3 seconds in cold starts, sounds fine afterwards. The ML does is louder though. Both of my engines run excellent.

Both of my cars are driven one week on the city and the other week in the highway (I switch cars with my wife every week).

Rene

[renerodz]

Forgot to mention:

I plan to keep these 2 cars until the wheels fall off, or badly wrecked.

Rene

[Espresso]

renerodz, your ML is definitly covered under the new warranty. That type of consumption IS NOT normal, AT ALL. What you need to do is call & document( record if you can) the svc manager at 3-4 different shops & the district manager. I can garantee they will all give you different awnsers. There really is "no standard" for oil consumption. If you have lost that much, it is obviously going somewhere & the ML's are the worst for sludging.
For 30K it was with the Dino oil..that did it all right there. It's documented as being from the dealership correct? If so THEY HAVE TO extend your warranty.
If they give you any shit, which I am positive they will, file a lawsuit. Given their track record & your records. You WILL come out on top. I would recommend you do this ASAP. I would not even aste time on repalcing your VC gaskets unless they ar ethat bad. Even then I would pay MB to do it, so they can see the sludge first hand.

Edit.. I just reread your post more carefully. You do know what the oil consumption test is right? They keep your car & drive the balls off of it for about 1000 miles. Sludge is sludge. AN oil consumption test will not really prove sludging, as it can vary greatly from time of day driving, road conditions & traffic..something just 1000 really wont prove unless its an extreme case, in which it will already be to late. This is something you need to get into the engine & see first hand. SO when they do the gaskets it will be obvious. So demand to see the engine when they get the VC off. If it is clean, be weary that they may have cleaned it up. I have seen many dealers do this to avoid having to do any real work.

[renerodz]

I am aware as well as my dealer that my ML is covered by this extended warranty, but I read the documents and it states the criteria for the dealer to do the test which was less than 1qt. per 1,000 miles to be considered by MB excessive oil consumption. I was told that the test would consist (if I don't remember wrong) of 1) reading the data on the FSS which shows oil change intervals and I think it also show re-fills because the FSS changes the miles left for oil change when re-fill is done, 2) they will change the oil, somehow mark or special tape the oil filter cap, drain plug and dipstick hole and ask me to come back in about 1,000 miles.

Then if the excessive oil consumption is confirmed, they will open the engine and "find out" if the cause is related to sludge, if it is, then you are covered. But if they determine that the cause is not related to sludge, with the head wide open at their court, they will tell you with a smile that it is not covered.

In other words, they have you by the balls anyways. It is not so that easy to have them cover on the lawsuit. They have their way out.

For now, I still have another 50K miles on this warranty and I have an eye on the issue. Again, I agree with you that 1qt. every 4-5K miles is excessive, but after talking to some experts in another forum I kind of accept this to be "normal", considering their expertise and also cosidering that if I change the oil every 3K miles like in the old days, I would probably not notice any oil consumption at all. I am not getting too worry about it until it start going way down. Some of the people reporting the problem had happen suddenly, like using some normal amount of oil, then suddenly goes to 1qt. per 500 miles.

Rene