New speakers vs new head unit

[BrazBenz]

I am in the very beginning of the process of improving my sound system.
Did a lot of browsing but still have some doubts...

My car has non-Bose stock speakers and a Pioneer DEH 515 W .
I definitely look for high quality sound (crystal clear, presence, etc etc) - not for loudness.
As of now it seems I don't need a subwoofer.

Questions:

1. Where do I start: changing the ten year old MB speakers or the head unit? Can I assume that stock & old speakers should be changed ?

2. Do I need an external amplifier or just a premium HU will provide enough muscle for my demands? (no loud hearing but VERY good sound, including low volume bass)

3. I see that the HUs have normally four channels. How are the 8 speakers distributed among them? (besides: is the frequency separation provided by the HU or amplifieR or do I need external crossovers to handle the 8 speakers frequency distribution/)

4. I would like to use the stock locations for the new speakers. Is it true that if I do so I should avoid component speakers?

If I decide to change the HU of course I will demand MP3 (MP4?) WMA etc.
Memory cards are highly desirable and bluetooth in the radio would be great.
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Jorge
PS: Going step by step is Ok. I normally buy all this stuff in the states and as I am buying some parts in the next trip I don't want to risk paying customs taxes by exceding my allowance for free purchases.

[shogun]

1. Start by changing your speakers as they make instant differnece in sound quality. Good HU with crappy speakers equals to crappy SQ.

2. If you're all about SQ, an external amplifier is a must. No HU has sufficient built-in amplifier to produce enough power to feed your new speakers. Also don't believe in 45W output HUs disclaim to have. Real power is at least 2 times less.

3. When looking for good SQ, there is no need to keep all 8 speakers. If you want new speakers to fit in the original places, I'd go with 2-way component system (3-way demands reconstruction of door panels). So a good 4 channel amp is needed.

When installed correctly, pure passive (no crossovers) 2-way system creates a sound picture that has absolutely no need for more speakers. They just don't add anything to SQ.

Subwoofer is something that can't be avoided.

And last but not least...I think you have never listened to a great SQ car audio system before, otherwise you'd know that no serious SQ maniac would want a MP3 player as MP3 is a low quality file format and does not complement your efforts towards SQ.

Read car-audio related forums on the internet to find out, what you really want (as there are many controvensial statements in your post) and how to put together a project accordingly (HU, amps, speakers, cables, installation)

[Benzon]

I upgraded to a Pioneer 7800 and it didn't seem to improve SQ of stock speakers much if at all. I just put in some MB Quart RVF 216 components in the stock locations (Tweeters in pods right above stock local.) And the SQ of these speakers is 50 times better (Tighter and cleaner). As for the 4 channel HU I hooked everything of mine t stock wiring so there must be some sort of crossover of some kind somewhere I think for the best SQ you'll need at least to do the speakers. I plan on amping and installing the MBQ crossovers when I amp them.

[BrazBenz]

Shogun and Benzon,
Many thanks for your advice.
I am more than persuaded that i shall start by the speakers.
Shogun, I may have conveyed (english is not my native language) the image that I want to get a S500 for the price of a C280... It is not the case.
I know perfection has a price and I don't even have musical sensibility to enjoy perfection.
I am looking for a good and pleasant SQ.
So, a few more questions:

1. If I don't replace the eight speakers which ones (position) should be left inactive?

2. Even if I like low volume level sound a subwoofer would be a must? If yes where could I place it in order to avoid trunk "invasion"?
Can I address the subwoofer theme with a low price unit given my needs ? (or would it add me nothing but wasted money ?)

3. Same as 2 - related to independent amplifier.

4. The MB outfit is composed of how many speakers ? How about the consideration that components are position sensitive and should be avoided in our stock positions ? Is that the reason for ponds above the stock tweeeters ?

In summary: I am looking for a good compromising among the parts. I am NOT stubbornly trying to do it via the cheap way. Owning a Mercedes and being cheap don't match...

[Benzon]

1. I would buy a nice set of 6.5in components to put in the stock local's. Those being Woofers in the front doors and tweeters around the stock local. For ABSOLUTE best quality the speakers should be set aimed and at a same distance..... For the SQ your talking about I would say a nice install in the stock local's will give your kind of SQ. (I did this and the sound out of nice components and a nice HU produce as much fill as all 8 previous stock speakers.

2. Well if your running components the crossover will kill all lower freq's so a sub would be a must to really enjoy the music, at least IMO and personal taste. Some subs dont need huge boxes to perform well. You could go with small subs abd small sealed boxes and only use a tiny bit of trunk space.I'm giving my subs only about a foot cubed each, the real problem is how to get the bass to transfer to the cabin, if you disable everyhting but the fronts you can pull out the rear deck's and let it flow through there, I would try to run both the decks and ported subs. There are excellent inexpensive subs so your not necessarily cheaping out as long as your buying good stuff, for cheap.

3. I would say you'll need to amp for the best quality most nice components are rated at 70-140 watts RMS, most HU's will push maybe 25. Distortion = Not SQ.

4. I just liked the way the pods looked mounted there and it did add a bit of direction, but the main reason for the pods is because MB stock Tweets are about 1/2 inch if that and my new ones were 3/4's and I didn't want to fab a bunch of stuff to mount under the grilles so I just mounted the pod.

Maybe Post up what your willing to put into this and you can get some recommendations.

[shogun]

Midbasses can be easily mounted into original places without any significant quality loss (for a normal ear at least). Tweeters are a bit trickier issue. The right way is to go with pods like Benzon said.

As for subwoofer, go for closed box for bass precision. If you're looking for fruitier bass, go with inverter box with bass element facing rear seats so you could lower your armrest to let bass straight into salon.

Give an idea of your budget so it'd be easier to give some suggestions.

PS! English is not my native language too:)

[audiophile]

well you need to start looking at what you want as far as components go (hu, speakers, amps,etc...) go to some places and start listening. people can recommend things all day long but it won't do you any good if you don't like it. our ears are like our taste buds, everybody likes different things. :D

[BrazBenz]

Thanks for all the advice. Now I am ready to go to phase II, as pointed out by Audiophile: listening and exercising my own perception.
I was planning to spend about 300.00 + HU.
From all I learned I'd say my budget has been increased to 500.00 + HU.
Have to review what is offered by the local speaker industry in Brazil. (they produce good stuff at good prices)
All the rest will probably be bought in the States.

[benzonline]

A guy I know with a 202 had his new speakers bolted onto the door frame and they fit, instead of using the plastic adaptors.

Is there a SQ difference bolting them to the door vs using the plastic speaker frame adaptors?

[BrazBenz]

Originally posted by benzonline
A guy I know with a 202 had his new speakers bolted onto the door frame and they fit, instead of using the plastic adaptors.

Is there a SQ difference bolting them to the door vs using the plastic speaker frame adaptors?

One possible way to benefit from this (being able to install larger speakers) would be combining bolting with Dynamat (see Crutchfield site)
That would possibly take us to the best of all worlds: larger speakers AND good acoustic environment.
BTW I am impressed with Dynamat and its competitors as a whole. Plenty of options both in audio acoustics and noise reduction.
Valuable resource!

[Benzon]

To use the stock mounts isnt that difficult especially if you buy speakers you know fit or if your really worried get shallow mount speakers. The best place to dynamat would be around the rim of the speaker to isolate the front from the back to give the best sq.

[BrazBenz]

Originally posted by Benzon
To use the stock mounts isnt that difficult especially if you buy speakers you know fit or if your really worried get shallow mount speakers. The best place to dynamat would be around the rim of the speaker to isolate the front from the back to give the best sq.

I understand that Dynamat is to be used as you describe.
I wonder if bolting+dynamat may not give you a little more depth possibly allowing larger speakers. (of course the increase will never be that expressive) (something like 1 inch or even half inch could be good)

[benzonline]

So what do you do? Cut a "ring" the size of the speaker, with a hole for the magnet/basket to go through and bolt thru the dynamat?

[Benzon]

If depth is a problem just get in there with a Dremel and cut out the back of the stock bracket and viola.

[BrazBenz]

Originally posted by benzonline
So what do you do? Cut a "ring" the size of the speaker, with a hole for the magnet/basket to go through and bolt thru the dynamat?

I was thinking that way. As per Benzon considerations it looks like I am wrong.
Will have to remove/open that place in order to fully understant the possibilities.
Jorge

[Benzon]

In my car there is a brack that the speaker is attached too and a smilar bracket attached somhow to the door if I took both brackets out I would have nothing to mount too, that's mine anyway.If you went lookng for metal you would screw right through your door (in mine anyway).

[BrazBenz]

Originally posted by Benzon


4. I just liked the way the pods looked mounted there and it did add a bit of direction, but the main reason for the pods is because MB stock Tweets are about 1/2 inch if that and my new ones were 3/4's and I didn't want to fab a bunch of stuff to mount under the grilles so I just mounted the pod.

Maybe Post up what your willing to put into this and you can get some recommendations.

Well, I moved on:

- Just bought a Pioneer 6300 F 4 channel amplifier
and
- A set of RVF 216 MB Quarts

Benzon: Need your support on where to find the tweeter ponds. I will install them in your way for the very same reasons.
As for the HU: almost done on a Pioner 8800BT w/ bluetooth inside. (this function is important to me)


Thanks in advance,