Engine oil cooler

[pisit]

does anyone know, if it's possible to install an oil cooler to a M111 motor?:ermm: Paul, any ideas? any plans to get a oil cooler on your motor? :)

i've hooked up a turbo to my motor and seem to have a load of problem with heat. here pic of the set;
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p50b2e54173f43ba1dcc4182416107e4d/ea9af230.jpg

and a pic of my ricey white rim
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p963bdf264e5bfc0fd6fd1fe0f4b09426/ea9af1ee.jpg

[Markland556]

Well why not run an oil cooler inline with the turbo, just use the tap off the block through an oil cooler then to the turbo, then back to whereever your return line is.

[97C28O]

Those rims look sick! not rice at all!

[pisit]

thanks for the replies!:D

Originally posted by Markland556
Well why not run an oil cooler inline with the turbo, just use the tap off the block through an oil cooler then to the turbo, then back to whereever your return line is.
thought about this before, but i'm not sure if the pressure from the feed/return line of the engine oil will be enough to push it through the cooler. and the mounting position would be a bit of a proble, sincewith the turbo and interool line in place it's kinda tight:confused:

[Pagz]

First up....love the colour!!....wheels look trick!!,whats with the drift styles lately:D....Great to see another turbo 202!!!....soooo how come we never got a heads up on this car??...or did i miss somthing??
i see its a right hand drive....so you inherit the troubles i have with clearance and heat!.


-You managed to fit the turbo back behind the valve cover recess,do you have any clearance issues when accelerating?

-is the turbo bearing housing water cooled?

-what ambiant air temperatures do you see over there?

-What system have you used to alter fuel/ignition?

-the manifold uses very long runners,do you get vibration between the turbo and head?...or is the header supported?...furthermore are the pipes thick or thin wall??

-I guess its seen a dyno...what power are you making?.


About the oil cooler...im not to sure where you would plumb that in on the M111...i know the pickup/return is taken from the oil filter mounting on most cars...So on ours you would need to tap a feed/return after the pump or around the filter somwhere...sounds very tricky!


pretty sure the oil pickup we use for the turbo will not work because an oil cooler system usually runs a series circuit with a bypass/thermostat in parallel.

it may be of interest that the diesel models do have oil coolers,later models had them attached to the rear of the filter housing,this was then connected to the engine coolant...being compatable may be a long shot however.


MORE PICS PLEASE:)

[pisit]

hey Paul, thanks for the comments and advices:D
i had this turbo set up for almost a year and had all the problems you've mentioned.

Currently the major problems are heat and vibration which needs to be fix asap.

- on hard acceletation, my header will start rocking with the chassis. so i was thinking of using a shorter length header and go with a bigger diameter pipe. however still considering whether i should go with stainless steel or not, since the current one i'm using is very thin and causing excessive noise and vibration.
i also have clearance issue with the steer-box. nothing much that can be done, but since i'm using internal waste so had less problem on that regard.

- my turbo is a journal bearing turbo (Garrett T28), with water housing which i haven't had the water lining in place yet. another point that is causing lots of heat.

- i'm using Unichip piggy-bag to alter the fuel and using additional fuel injector module of the same supplier. Idle is fine but having load of problem when accelerating and long hard run. I have change the fuel delivering system with a Bosch 5 bar fuel pump which doesn't seem to help that much. I still can't get the A/F ratio to be at 12:1 with this setting so i'm thinking of using Haltech with Accel Injector in the future.

- the ambiant air temp here is hot like hell, it's around 35C almost year round. just in the during the end of the year that it will be around 20C something with last only a month.

btw, love your car mannn. it's sure one of the best MB turbo set up out there!:D

[Nitrogenbalance]

A little info on the wheels would be cool????

Love the car man!!

[RemoLexi]

Ive also been thinking of an oil cooler for my turbo 230. all the kits ive seen relocate your oil filter, so what I was thinking is if you take out the stock filter- put the cap back on without an oil filter in there and then use an aftermarket oil filter/mount. I havnt really researched this idea much but its at the back of my head too. ;) project looks good and I love your rims im looking for a white set right now for my White C230. mind telling me the brand/model/ specs of those ?

[Pagz]

For almost a year!!!...you must have started around the time i did my first setup!.

-Does the header hit the suspension tower under hard acceleration?

I found the long thin wall header causes flexibility between the turbo and head,and at certain RPM the vibration is more pronounced as the two go in and out of frequency...
you could use a brace of the turbo,but its not recommended as there is alot of expansion and may cause a very short header life..
the other option is to re-make the header like you said...but use thick wall SS or mild steel...I went all the way and used cast weld els this time....they are super thick...so they take alittle charge heat out which should go through the turbo...but its much more compact and strong...so strong.
also if you use a bigger diameter pipe it will slow exhaust gas volocity into the turbo and may knock back responce alittle...most advise using smaller piping if a choice exists.
heres the comparison between my old and new...

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_291_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_142_full.jpg


Yep heat is #1 enemy!
Connecting the water jacket up has its advantages,it will aid in keeping the oil cool at the turbo...this effectively takes the extra heat on the oil system and places it on the coolant system...with 35 degrees temps you may want to look at a thicker radiator.
also add a ceramic coating to the header,turbine housing and any other hot parts...do no wrap the header!....do the down pipe if any....install a Stainless Steal heat shield around the turbine housing,this will cut back alot of radiating heat...which will reduce overall heat.

Sounds like a rough ride with the tuning,going with a stand alone sounds good!...im just hunting down wiring diagrams at the moment so we can get the Motec M400 wired in...not a small job!.

thanks man,i really want to re-paint mine in your colour!!

Paul

[Markland556]

if your looking for OEM wiring diag's send me i PM. I can help you beyond your belief.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by Markland556
if your looking for OEM wiring diag's send me i PM. I can help you beyond your belief.

Great!!!,ill be PM'ing you very shortly;)

[RemoLexi]

MarkLand u have ALLDATA on your computer ?

[Markland556]

I can access ALLdata at my highschool auto shop but i have access to StarTek info. Full wiring diagrams and much more.
A one year subscription to it is $3k

[RemoLexi]

ya I know .. I just got ALLDATA on my computer still tinkering with it trying to see what help it can give me. like 20 freaking cds!!

[pisit]

Originally posted by 23K
For almost a year!!!...you must have started around the time i did my first setup!.

-Does the header hit the suspension tower under hard acceleration?

I found the long thin wall header causes flexibility between the turbo and head,and at certain RPM the vibration is more pronounced as the two go in and out of frequency...
you could use a brace of the turbo,but its not recommended as there is alot of expansion and may cause a very short header life..
the other option is to re-make the header like you said...but use thick wall SS or mild steel...I went all the way and used cast weld els this time....they are super thick...so they take alittle charge heat out which should go through the turbo...but its much more compact and strong...so strong.
also if you use a bigger diameter pipe it will slow exhaust gas volocity into the turbo and may knock back responce alittle...most advise using smaller piping if a choice exists.
heres the comparison between my old and new...

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_291_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/3/web/735000-735999/735658_142_full.jpg


Yep heat is #1 enemy!
Connecting the water jacket up has its advantages,it will aid in keeping the oil cool at the turbo...this effectively takes the extra heat on the oil system and places it on the coolant system...with 35 degrees temps you may want to look at a thicker radiator.
also add a ceramic coating to the header,turbine housing and any other hot parts...do no wrap the header!....do the down pipe if any....install a Stainless Steal heat shield around the turbine housing,this will cut back alot of radiating heat...which will reduce overall heat.

Sounds like a rough ride with the tuning,going with a stand alone sounds good!...im just hunting down wiring diagrams at the moment so we can get the Motec M400 wired in...not a small job!.

thanks man,i really want to re-paint mine in your colour!!

Paul
Thank Paul,
I was thinking of getting the new header make next week, but will make sure this time that it's gonna come out the way i wanted. btw, do u have any formula to calculate the length and diameter of the pipe for the header? Last time the mechanic guy got it calculated for me so it's kinda too long, i'll if i can get it calculate to see if there's any trade-off between low and mid power range.

i would love to get my parts ceramic coated, but the dont have it here in Thailand! i've been doing research for such service here and all of them are for industry customer and now will to do small parts.

hey, a bit curious about the "no wrap for the header", what is the set back for that?

oh, the header is difinitely banging with the suspension tower, so i might need to use pretty the same design as ur new one:D no patent fee ay:p

yup, i'm looking into the wiring daigram for haltech standalone unit. trying to draw the wiring diagram and asking for some advice from the guy in Australia. hope he would make a trip here the same time i got my car done. Motec is the ultimate ECU that i would love to have, but due to the cost comparing to Haltech I'll need to go with the Haltech route.

[pisit]

Originally posted by Nitrogenbalance
A little info on the wheels would be cool????

Love the car man!!
thanks man
will post some more rim pics in suspension tuning

[Pagz]

Hey,
We didnt use any formula to calculate pipe size,there are so many variables in calculating actual exhaust volocity!
the fact is pipe size is usually dictated by two key things...port size and avaliable pipe size...it is more than likely that there will be one or if your lucky,two pipe sizes that will suit....if there is two sizes available than choosing the smaller to increase volocity is said to be the best route...the books i have say this,and so do my fabricators.
Im pretty sure i only had one option with the cast weld els.

you could make a basic assumption that the larger pipe will give you less bottom end responce for more top end HP...but how much diference is debatable...I would want optimum spool time for best drivability so would stick with the smaller pipe size if it exists.

-Whats the specs on the turbine housing?

Thats a pain you dont have ceramic coaters there!,i know of two locally who do all sorts of coats on heads,blocks,pistons,headers etc.
The reason i say dont wrap the header as it holds in too much heat which equats to alot of expansion...thus cracking and a short life...my SS header turned all sorts of rainbow colours!,where as ceramic coats dont hold as much heat but still help the situation.

hehehe ok no patent fee this time,ill let you off:D

[RemoLexi]

Yee i got ceramic coating! :D

[Pagz]

Also is that an equal length manifold??

it is pretty much impossible to make a top mount short equal length manifold on the M111,there just no room...and while the thought is nice,im not convinced it is anywhere near nessassary to make a powerful turbo setup...epecially after seeing a 1000hp turbo equiped M3 totally smoke a ferrari on the freeway(vid clip)....and it had a LOG STYLE manifold running from the left of the engine to the right side where the turbo was LOL.


Btw wheels look great in the thread you posted!!..can you get us a few more on a cloudy day too?:)


Yee i got ceramic coating!
nice!,have you had the manifold done?

[pisit]

Originally posted by 23K
Also is that an equal length manifold??

it is pretty much impossible to make a top mount short equal length manifold on the M111,there just no room...and while the thought is nice,im not convinced it is anywhere near nessassary to make a powerful turbo setup...epecially after seeing a 1000hp turbo equiped M3 totally smoke a ferrari on the freeway(vid clip)....and it had a LOG STYLE manifold running from the left of the engine to the right side where the turbo was LOL.


Btw wheels look great in the thread you posted!!..can you get us a few more on a cloudy day too?:)


nice!,have you had the manifold done?
i'm using a Garrett T2835 A/R 0.64 trim,
for the present manifold is a equal length manifold, so had lots of vibration problems, well definitely going with the cast weld soon!

anyways, brought my car to the garage today and got some bad news from my mechanic. seem there's engine oil leeking from the dipstick and header gasket. so gonna open it and have them polish at the same time and might increase the thickness of the gasket.

well i guess Paul will understand this more than anyone, BUT IT'S THIS MOST ADVENTUROUS THING THAT YOU CAN DO WITH YOUR CAR, TURBOCHARGING IT!!

[RemoLexi]

Originally posted by pisit
THIS MOST ADVENTUROUS THING THAT YOU CAN DO WITH YOUR CAR, TURBOCHARGING IT!!

Amen to that! :D lucky i dont have all those space issues ... shiet I shouldnt be talking right now .. and WORKING ON IT :o :p

[Pagz]

Originally posted by pisit
i'm using a Garrett T2835 A/R 0.64 trim,
for the present manifold is a equal length manifold, so had lots of vibration problems, well definitely going with the cast weld soon!

anyways, brought my car to the garage today and got some bad news from my mechanic. seem there's engine oil leeking from the dipstick and header gasket. so gonna open it and have them polish at the same time and might increase the thickness of the gasket.

well i guess Paul will understand this more than anyone, BUT IT'S THIS MOST ADVENTUROUS THING THAT YOU CAN DO WITH YOUR CAR, TURBOCHARGING IT!!

hmmm oil from the header gasket?!?...Either valve stem or turbo seals would be my guess....but you would notice these two from exhaust smoke colour etc...so maybe its coming from the head gasket?


Amen to that! lucky i dont have all those space issues ... shiet I shouldnt be talking right now .. and WORKING ON IT Dont worry,im positive your turn will come:D

[Pagz]

Iv been loosing sleep over this oil cooler system:D...So this morning when i made my 3244353546 trip to the fittings supplier(and my stoptech bbk supplier)...who just so happens to supply oil cooler systems as well....and just so happened to race heavily modified turbo diesel MB's etc back in the day...(think 37psi with parts flowing out the exhaust)...we came up with a possible solution and wouldnt you know....a possibility iv been talked into doing it myself lol.


The idea would be to remove the cartridge filter,then have an alloy cap and pipe machined(would look like a mushroom)... then afterwards add two -10 fittings on the top.
so you would wind the alloy cap on and the pipe(stem of the mushroom)would have an o-ring at the base which would seal over where the filter usually did,then you could simply tap the centre and outside of the cap for your feed and return,you would then use a high quality remote filter setup and oil cooler....easy done!;)...just need a nice drawing for your engineer!.

Im pretty keen on the idea,the oil cooler/filter mount and thermostat isnt that expensive....the lions share will be the billet cap/adapter.

Anyways just a thought...if you dont get the full picture i can draw it for you.


Best regards,
Paul

[pisit]

Originally posted by 23K
Iv been loosing sleep over this oil cooler system:D...So this morning when i made my 3244353546 trip to the fittings supplier(and my stoptech bbk supplier)...who just so happens to supply oil cooler systems as well....and just so happened to race heavily modified turbo diesel MB's etc back in the day...(think 37psi with parts flowing out the exhaust)...we came up with a possible solution and wouldnt you know....a possibility iv been talked into doing it myself lol.


The idea would be to remove the cartridge filter,then have an alloy cap and pipe machined(would look like a mushroom)... then afterwards add two -10 fittings on the top.
so you would wind the alloy cap on and the pipe(stem of the mushroom)would have an o-ring at the base which would seal over where the filter usually did,then you could simply tap the centre and outside of the cap for your feed and return,you would then use a high quality remote filter setup and oil cooler....easy done!;)...just need a nice drawing for your engineer!.

Im pretty keen on the idea,the oil cooler/filter mount and thermostat isnt that expensive....the lions share will be the billet cap/adapter.

Anyways just a thought...if you dont get the full picture i can draw it for you.


Best regards,
Paul

thanks Paul:D
i think i've seen some design pretty similiar to this, but it's in a magazine like 6 years ago. i'll try to go through my pile of magazine and see if i can find. if fortunate enough i will have them scan and post.
but from what i remember is just picture of the cap ready install with no digram explaining and i think it was provided by Kleemann if not mistaken.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by pisit
thanks Paul:D
i think i've seen some design pretty similiar to this, but it's in a magazine like 6 years ago. i'll try to go through my pile of magazine and see if i can find. if fortunate enough i will have them scan and post.
but from what i remember is just picture of the cap ready install with no digram explaining and i think it was provided by Kleemann if not mistaken.

Cool so it has been done!,well if you do find a pic let me know;)

cheers,
Paul

[pisit]

Originally posted by 23K
Cool so it has been done!,well if you do find a pic let me know;)

cheers,
Paul
got the pics in but not that clear. the magazine mentioned that it was Earl's oil cooling system.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p72f29dde4b3da19131ab9df6bdf80993/ea80c897.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p46835f9e53ddfc58331ede080df79356/ea80c846.jpg

[Pagz]

Most Excellent find man!!!
...that is EXACTLY what i was thinking of!!!

Is that a Kleemann badge i see!,so they ran an air/water IC back in the day!

I wonder if the adapter they have screwed into the filter housing is a one-off?...or they actually produced this part...might be worth asking kleemann,and hoping for a reply...lol.

[pisit]

Originally posted by 23K
Most Excellent find man!!!
...that is EXACTLY what i was thinking of!!!

Is that a Kleemann badge i see!,so they ran an air/water IC back in the day!

I wonder if the adapter they have screwed into the filter housing is a one-off?...or they actually produced this part...might be worth asking kleemann,and hoping for a reply...lol.
hey Paul, i think Earl's (http://www.earls.co.uk/) were the one who produced it, but i doubt it that the information is right on this.