Car pulls to the left and right

[blackc230]

Hi guys

I have been having this problem for quite a while. I have tried balancing and alligning the wheels and no abnormalities have been found.

I have a set of 19" Carlsson wheels, H&R springs (I bought 'em brand new and uncut), and #2 pads all around. I have also replaced most of the bushings at the front, which I think consist of arm bushings, tie rod, wheel bearings, and steering shocks.

The car does not behave (pulling to the left and right) all the time. But only in certain cases. Can anyone shed some lights on this issue?

thanks guys

[Denlasoul]

I am guessing that your 19's are wider in wheel size and tire width compared to stock. Are you aware that the wider track will make your car more susceptible to variations in the road? Alot of roads have tracks worn into them even though you may not see them. By going with a wider stance your car may be going in and out of those worn tracks and thus giveing you the feeling of a wobble.

Seeing that you have changed almost every component, it could be very possible that your wheels are causing the wobble. I would double check the suspension components and see if everything is correctly installed and that nothing is worn or needs replacing.

Lastly, I'd try driving on a freshly paved road or parking lot. I would think you would not feel the wobble. Also, try and find a smooth lot with noone around (mainly at night) and get up to a higher speed (~50-60mph). See if you feel the wobble.

[c55m8o]

I can echo Denlasoul's statement. blackc230, Does your car pull one way if you are to the right of the center within a lane, then pull the other way if you are left of center within the same lane, on a well travelled (grooved) road? Mine does.

[C280/////AMG]

I know exactly what your problem is, i have the same and there's nothing you can do about it...

Because your car is lowered further than the factory spec height (factory allows for 15mm drop, and guessing from your springs you've got about a 30-35mm drop. This has now caused your camber on all your wheels to be more negative than spec. Along with a negative WHEEL camber comes an increased sensitivity to ROAD camber (the slope of the road). So if the road slopes so that the left side is higher than the right, your car will pull to the right, and vica versa.

I noticed this as soon as i put in the sport springs (both Koni and Eibach had the same effect)

I also noticed after the drop that when i'm in a parking lot doing tight manoevers, when i turn my steering more than one revolution it does not correct itself anymore, whereas before it used to. Try it out and let me know if it's the same with you!!

Many wheel alignment places try ans correct this by fiddling with the castor settings...LEAVE THEM ALONE!! Try as best as you can to make the camber less negative.

The only way to correct this fully is to go back to stock springs, or OEM Sport springs.

The pulling gets a bit annoying, but it does no harm

I'm running on a 33mm drop and i'm using #4 pads and my camber is still roughly -2 degrees, 36 minutes on either side (about 30 minutes over spec)

[kyo216]

the exact same thing happened when i put on my staggered work vs rims. they are 18 x 8.5 and 18x 9.5. whenever i hit uneven road it pulls to the right hard. at first it scared the shit out of me. but then i realized it only occurs on certain roads. everywhere else is fine. on a even road i even let go of my steering wheel and it stays perfectly straight so i know its not my alignment. i guess its the down side to wider rims.

[blackc230]

wow thanks for the extremely informative replies.

c55m8o & Denlasoul, yes my Carlsson wheels are much wider and larger in size compare to stock wheels and tyres. Even the rear is wider than the front (10" in wide and 8.5" at the front). How many types of suspension bushings are there in a 202?
On a well-grooved road, my car is a nightmare to drive. I was driving on a newly paved road one night and the car behaved just fine. But when I get to the older section of the road it became wobbly. At that time I was doing +- 60mph. I had to correct the car all the time. It was pretty scary.

C280/////AMG & kyo216, too bad knowing that nothing we can do abt it. I'm gonna have my suspension check again 2morrow just to make sure nothing magnifies the problem. And yes..my steering does not correct itself.

thanks heaps guys

[OzC36]

Many thanks to C280////AMG and kyo216 for your very informative posts.

This sort of experience and information sharing is what makes sites like this worthwhile!

Cheers,
OzC36

[c55m8o]

Using speedbenz (and now other ones) rear camber arms, and the KMAC front camber kit should set it straight (no pun intended but I'll take it ;) ). I have the former and plan on buying the latter soon:
http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12697

[C280/////AMG]

Sure thing!

[trymonlam]

finally someone shares my pain driving in summer setup and now is speaking about it.
i got the exact same problem. with 225 in the front. it is very sensitive to the texture of the road, the grooves on it, etc. it does make the car pull left and right and i almost run into the wall because of this. however, when i swap into my winter 16 inch wheels, everything seem normal again.
given the above conclusion from our more experienced members, would a pair of adjustable camber arm solve the problem?

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by trymonlam
would a pair of adjustable camber arm solve the problem? It hasnt' for me, though I run a little high for corner handling. I'd say reducing the front camber is what'll do it....referred to above with an active thread in the suspension forum.

[kyo216]

Originally posted by c55m8o
Using speedbenz (and now other ones) rear camber arms, and the KMAC front camber kit should set it straight (no pun intended but I'll take it ;) ). I have the former and plan on buying the latter soon:
http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12697

hmm how does the camber arm and camber kit solve the problem?

[c55m8o]

did you read the previous posts? [!] C280/////AMG was most descriptive 9 posts back. bunch'a posts before it and after it that 'splain it w/o getting too technical w/physics.

Just visualize what you have with a wider track both in and out (assuming wider rims & tires), along with a higher camber; the most pressure hitting the road (contact patch) is further in from the wheel center-line then it is stock, and much less to hardly any pressure on the outside of the tires (except for when you're in hard turns, where it works to your advantage). Couple that contact patch unbalance with a touch of toe all cars need for stability, and it nets increased sensitivity to road irregularities.

edit: I guess I should add what I assumed to be an intuitive conclusion but maybe it's not ... put camber back to where it aught'a be w/a camber kit after lowering, and you reduce the sensitivity to road irregularities [twitchiness].

[kyo216]

Originally posted by c55m8o
did you read the previous posts? [!] C280/////AMG was most descriptive 9 posts back. bunch'a posts before it and after it that 'splain it w/o getting too technical w/physics.

Just visualize what you have with a wider track both in and out (assuming wider rims & tires), along with a higher camber; the most pressure hitting the road (contact patch) is further in from the wheel center-line then it is stock, and much less to hardly any pressure on the outside of the tires (except for when you're in hard turns, where it works to your advantage). Couple that contact patch unbalance with a touch of toe all cars need for stability, and it nets increased sensitivity to road irregularities.

edit: I guess I should add what I assumed to be an intuitive conclusion but maybe it's not ... put camber back to where it aught'a be w/a camber kit after lowering, and you reduce the sensitivity to road irregularities [twitchiness].


....i read his post and especially his first sentence where he said. "I know the problem and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it..."

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by kyo216
....i read his post and especially his first sentence where he said. "I know the problem and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it..." ie, my mention of the all important camber kit for the front.

[kyo216]

well my car has always been lowered. with my oem rims this pull never happened. i put on my work rims a month ago and immediately noticed it. so youre saying a front camber kit will completely fix this problem? how are you sure? personal experience?

while im not doubting that lowered cars have negative camber. im sure the wider rims have more effect and a camber kit will not solve the problem. seeing that i was perfectly fine before the wider rims with the exact same negative camber.

[OzC36]

kyo216,

There are many factors affecting steering stability and control. What is or becomes the most dominant factor in any setup or situation is almost infinitely variable.

Some of the posters have offered solutions that have helped them but may or may not be applicable to your particular case.

Road effects include road camber, rutting, smoothness, coefficient of friction etc that may cause more or less pronounced "tramlining" effect with wide wheels.

Car effects include steering alignment (toe-in/toe-out), caster, camber, damping, wheel offset, wheel width, tyre width, tyre construction, tyre pressures, shock and spring settings, etc.

There are many references from which one can learn more about the subject including Wikipedia etc, if that is what you seek.

I found the following site useful to help my understanding of the problem:

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

Cheers,
OzC36

[kyo216]

haha thank you OZ. i already know there are many variables that are causing this problem besides camber kits and wider rims. alot of other variables are affecting this. i was just annoyed that one person is basically saying that camber kits and camber arms will fix the problem when it might or might not help. especially since a front camber kit cost around 280 and installation is like 500 bux.

[trymonlam]

well,
probably one way or the other people on large wide wheels should get a set of front camber kit. i am on 18x8.5 with 225 and i've got bad adnormal wear on front tires. and the unecessary premature replacement adds up real fast.

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by kyo216
haha thank you OZ. i already know there are many variables that are causing this problem besides camber kits and wider rims. alot of other variables are affecting this. i was just annoyed that one person is basically saying that camber kits and camber arms will fix the problem when it might or might not help. especially since a front camber kit cost around 280 and installation is like 500 bux. Perhaps it's my fault if I'm being vague but don't realize it, or assume people read the words I write and comprehend it as that, and not what they think or want it to mean.

I never said WILL! I said it SHOULD, and that that is what I was going to do! And I NEVER said 'eliminate'. I intended the reader to surmise it is the one thing I know of that you -can- do to address it and reduce it! Not eliminate. Why? Because the tire's contact patch rotation and sweep are also affected with wider rims and camber ain't gunna do nuth'n for that.

Just because C280 comprehensively articulated the behavior in a way that everyone can learn from doesn't make his statements of "and there's nothing you can do about it" categorically correct! Something can be done about it. You point me to my statement where I said "it would be eliminated with it".

I've had countless [costly] alignments by a true racing shop to either their specs, my specs that I wanted to try, and to speedybenz's specs, giving me setups no stealership or repair shop would every let you leave their premises with? And did that with various rims and tire widths, and all with differing track widths with and without spacers ... And I learned a great deal about behavior and handling of the 202 from every one of the trials.

....I'm confident enough in all that to know my money spent on the front camber kit will be money well spent. If you want the condition discussed here eliminated, put your 15" rims with 205mm wide tires back on you car; but let the people who want to tweek to make things better do so.

I'm out.

[speedybenz]

I always run lots of front camber, usually 2 degrees or slightly more. What seems to cause the car to dart around in the front is the combination of camber and toe. If the toe on the front goes to zero toe out or more the car will become very darty feeling and follow the road elevation or ruts like it was glued to it, sometimes causing a great deal of concern. Try setting up the car with more toe in to reduce the darting action and restore control.

Jeff

[c55m8o]

That is very useful to learn. (I had the effect of toe with high camber backwards)

The best Taso could get my car was 2.something (.3 or .6?) degrees up front at the height I'm at (a tight finger), with camber bolts on both sides and his best effort. You mentioned the upper spring perch helping the situation in the K-MAC thread. Can't wait. :D Though I think that's implying running the suspension a few 1/8ths higher.

But I really am looking for a flatter setup (less camber), since I'm not tracking as much as you (I hope to fit even just one in this summer) and on a more day to day basis I never have turns the radius of your canyon roads that make up your proving ground. ;) We have some really weather beaten roads around here with some deep ruts; most notably the main highway, the LIE. I've had that sensitivity to road grade from a fresh setup with the toe setting that gives great balance. The higher toe would be ok for others I imagine. But I definitely don't want to go with higher toe then the optimal spec you passed on to me; once Taso got the numbers mixed up and gave me double the tow front and rear, and the steering responsiveness felt completely 'dead' in my hands. I was very unhappy. (neither of us had any idea. I only knew it was "bland" feeling and didn't know why. But after getting it on the machine he discovered it was double, and that completely explained how dead it felt, since I knew by then how it 'could' feel.)

Let me ask you this as you may know, just for my edification. When the suspension compresses on the 202 does that change toe, and does it go in or out to negative toe? Simply visualizing the motion of the suspension around the pivots in 3D, if there is some toe to begin with I would say that increases it from the base toe it was at. Wondering if you can confirm or correct?

I'll talk to you later.

[C280/////AMG]

When i say there's absolutely nothing you can do, i'm assuming that you don't want to spend a fortune on camber kits and the rest.

I agree, i used the word "absolutely" a bit loosely...my intention was to express to Black230 that i've spent loads of time at wheel alignment specialists on this topic and have found the problem, but no 'plug and play' solution

I've got the camber bolts and the castor bolts, basically every OEM suspension adjustment aid you can get, and i can do nothing about my negative camber. If you want to start playing with aftermarket parts which are probably not TUV approved, be my guest...

While we're on the topic, our cars have a multi-link rear suspension (as you guys know), which is considerably complex very specifically designed for thrust forces and the rest...now i've found that my camber on the right rear is considerably more negative than the left rear (about 30 seconds difference). What's the story here? My primary concern is excessive tyre wear. is there anything can do about it? haha

Btw, thanks Oz36 for that fantastic article!

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by C280/////AMG
i've found that my camber on the right rear is considerably more negative than the left rear (about 30 seconds difference). What's the story here? My primary concern is excessive tyre wear. is there anything can do about it? haha lol ... ya, I'm weary of replying... :p You'll find many many of the people with a lowered car on here run Jeff's [ speedybenz ] adjustable camber arms. There's some people in New Zeland or Australia (I forget) who made them too; dunno if they sell them. Jeff can be reached at speedyafm2@aol.com . He's got a website primarily for describing them http://www.speedybnz.com/ . While I doubt TUV approved (what does the acronym stand for if I may ask), they have hundreds of thousands of miles of real-world trial/testing accumulated across the many many customers he's provided them to.

haha, talk about not 'TUV approved'.... have you looked @ the suspension Jeff created that I run? lol... Ya, lack of certification certainly doesn't scare me away. :cool:

[OzC36]

A whole 30" difference!

Ha de ha ha!

[C280/////AMG]

Originally posted by OzC36
A whole 30" difference!

Ha de ha ha!

OOPS! :eek: I meant 30 minutes... (i.e. half a degree)

Thanks c55. You know, i was also thinking about older rear wheel drive cars. They don't have camber adj at the rear either, but after a few years, they tend to run a negative camber (at the rear). Apparently this happens to cars which have roughly 180hp or more, as one of the arms in the multi-link suspension actually stretches due to the power applied to the wheels. would you guys know anything about this? Which arm stretches?

Btw, TUV is a german approval given to products which pass extreme quality tests. they also test the products on the exact vehicle or application it's designed for and if it doesn't pass TUV or if it has any adverse effects on safety and overall durability, then the product actually isn't allowed on the Autobahn wrt vehicles (and all roads, i'm sure)

[OzC36]

These guys also offer camber/castor kits for front and rear:

http://search.stores.ebay.com/IMPORT-AUTO-PERFORMANCE_mercedes_W0QQfciZ6QQfclZ4QQfsnZIMPORTQ 20AUTOQ20PERFORMANCEQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsubZ2QQsase lZ15585606QQsofpZ0

[C280/////AMG]

Interesting..but the rear kit looks the same as the front kit! can't be...

[c55m8o]

Originally posted by C280/////AMG
Interesting..but the rear kit looks the same as the front kit! can't be... ...but then "you [do] want to spend a fortune on camber kits and the rest"... :suprise: :D

Bigger Pix of the same thing on eBay:
http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11617