hps sc install- plus tech help please read

[expo5.0]

i'll update this thread as i go through the preparation for and the install of the hps gen I kit on my car.

first off, background-

car has 99k on the clock and is basically caught up on maintanence- however, i'm going to do some basic things right now in order to get things prepared. I'll list what i'm thinking but please feel free to suggest anything else which you'd do prior to supercharger install-

spark plugs
transmission flush
fuel filter
cabin air filter
diff. fluid? (should i- if so how?)


so- who knows how much fluid and can recommend a place to buy the parts for the transmission flush/has a link to directions? i've done a bit of reading on this car and poked around under there and it looks simple enough.

who knows about the diff. fluid? should i do it? should i just be swapping to a better diff? i'm sure i can gain a lot of traction if the right parts are available...

lastly (for now), how can i fully defeat cruise control? can i remove the fuses for the system and not trigger some kind of a "limp" mode or anything like that? maybe a better diff would solve this enough that the "off" mode would be good enough as well.

thoughts and input on what to order please

-drew



btw, for those who missed my other threads. the plan is hps gen I kit right now and to get it running properly with that. then i will store it for the winter with the intention of adding crank pulley and meth injection in the spring.

[omeyhomey]

Hello Drew,

from experience don't go with platinum in these older motors, the best plugs are Bosch super coppers. you will need more powerful spark so I would recommend getting some 8.5mm core (or larger) magnacore wires, they really help smoothen out spark and make it more powerful, under boost applications the spark can actually be blown out if boost pressures are high enough.

i HIGHLY recommend upgrading your entire driveline to Royal Purple fluids, it will totally transform the car. For diff you will want to run 75w-90 "MaxGear", for the tranny you will want "MAXATF" (it meets all the highest cerfitication levels and is superior to redline). For the engine I would run a thicker weight oil since it will be under quite a bit of stress and its less suceptible, RP 20w-50 is all the protection you'd ever need. Also you can get new stock tranny filter at AZ autohaus.

yes now would be a good time for new fuel filter as well. I highly doubt you will need new fuel pump however, how would also be a good time to upgrade injectors b/c stock ones will probably not suffice. typically you want to go up roughly 4-6lbs in fuel rate at least when going to light boost FI applications. Remember its ALWAYS better to run too rich on FI than too lean.

Now would be a good time to address exhaust while you are at it too. just curious which model car is this again?

[expo5.0]

yeah, i just need to find a dealer for all the fluids. I'm impartial as far as the premium companies go, but if you say royal purple- why not?

it massively sucks searching for things like the wires and the plugs-

do i want one heat range colder with the plugs?

who carries the plugs and wires AND is smart enough to help me figure out what part numbers i need?

the kit is coming with a new fuel pump, but i'm thinking my stock pump is likely just as good if not better at this point. I think the one it comes with may be bosch. I'll likely just sell that.

my exhaust is still stock C43 with the resonator removed (y pipe in it's place). I can't afford to pick up any of the headers (nor do i actually know where to get them anyways right now). I don't know if it's worth doing much to it at this point other than waiting until i can afford headers? what's your opinion?

does anyone know how much fluid i need for the diff and the tranny?

-drew

[Denlasoul]

For tranny service, there is a DIY on mercedesshop.com's DIY's section. You will need 8 litres of fluid.

If you need Magnecore wires, I got a pretty good deal. PM me for information, got them for $155.50 shipped.

[expo5.0]

same as these?

http://www.ultrarev.com/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=30

that would be a good deal!

i'm not familiar with that forum, but i'll go take a look.

Are there other things i should be addressing so far as "routine" maintainence/

[Denlasoul]

Yes 8.5mm wires. I did not see them on the site, but based on some of the other prices, they are comparable.

edit: check your motor mounts, lower control arm bushings, flex discs.

[expo5.0]

my motor mounts are "fine"

the price on that link was $175

do they only come in red with the 8.5mm?

[Denlasoul]

Originally posted by expo5.0
my motor mounts are "fine"

the price on that link was $175

do they only come in red with the 8.5mm?
AFAIK

[expo5.0]

so where do i order them from?

i want to get those here now-

I will do the plugs and wires along with the install of the sc initially

most other things which aren't necessary for the car to run (tranny, diff, etc. etc.) i will wait until i take it out of storage in the spring.

i'm sure by spring i'll have a LONG list of little projects- hopefully including brakes too...

[Nitrogenbalance]

I would go the copper plug route as well. I did. It is good thing with the increase in cylinder temps etc..The bosche plugs and the NGK's in copper are good. I went the NGK route as I couldn't find the right bosche part # for the coppers. Single tip is fine also. I also went the magancore route and I am very happy with this product as well. You must change these during isntall becuase from here on you will have to remove the SC to acess the coils and such. The wires are very short and close so one thing I would have liked to do is get a set of those DEI wire sleaves and throw them over the wires after install for protection as they have none.

For fluids I have to agree that royal purple stuff has grown on me and I honestly think my motor is more quiet with the RP than the thin mobil 1. I changed my diff fluid last year and it was a one arm job. Very easy, there should be a DIY on mbworld somewhere. You need a cheap hand pump $6.99 for the bottle and thats about it. The old fluid will look like crap at 99K so its worth a change. I recall it taking just under 2 quarts I think. remember to level the car off when draining the fluid to get it all out.

The tranny I had flushed at a shop with a Winn machine. Its really the best way to go as it doesn't simply drain the tranny but flushes it's fluid 1 for 1. Looks like a crappy DIY anyway. No fun.

Fuel filter and cabin are a quick easy fix as well. The fuel filter is easy to get to right behind the P side rear tire under a skid plate. Do this when the car is on the jack draining the diff fluild.

As far as fully disabling the the ESP(you said cruise control but I think you ment traction). You can simply disconnect the esp block thing in the engine bay. Cuts all ESP. I wouldn't do this though because your stability, braking, and everything will be off so its very dangerous should you get into trouble entering a corner or stoping quick. I would stick with the dash off option that allows a little wheel spin.

The best thing for the above issue is an LSD. You really can't switch the rear diff on this car without changing the tranny, TCU, and a few other things upstream of the rear end. It would be a headache and very $$$. The only LSD option for this pumpkin would be kleemann at $2200.00 I will go this route as it is the only damn option. Quaiffe doesn't work on this car. I've spent months figuring this out even discussing at length with Cory from Kleemann. Its honeslty the only option right now for the C43.

I read above about blowing the spark plugs out of the block. at 4-6pis with this system I wouldn't worry bout' it.


The green bosche injectors should be fine for the power we are trying to make. I've been assured by many that these are more than sufficient. One opportunity you have before install though is to have them cleaned, flow tested, and matched/blueprinted whatever they call it. I know a place that has a good turnaround for this and mails you back all the data along with the injectors when they are done.

The stock fuel pump worked out fine for me. A better pump will always help but it may not be something that equates to an HP increase it might just work easier supplying the needed pressure. GregC from mbworld has alot of interesting posts about the bosche pumps and what not. I'd search his posts.

I think that sums up most of your quesitons. If your like me you'll have many more to come.

[expo5.0]

thanks man-

the only thing i REALLY want right now is the complete parts list and installation instructions for the kit...

also, any pictures you have of places you strayed from those instructions (or details about it)

thanks

-drew

[expo5.0]

have full instructions- am missing some parts though, but nothing major.


new question-

has anyone used split second's products to tune the fuel curve based off the maf's readings?

[c280nz]

haha i was just reading about greddy e-manage, and apexi neo.
i better check out split second aswel
look at those two i mentioned also

[expo5.0]

will do-

i've been researching and talking to guys from the bimmer forums trying to gather data etc.- split second seems like the cheapest, best, option- but what do i know

[expo5.0]

i'm getting into the psc1-001 from split second as it is very cheap relatively and it may do all i need. I will post if that is the case or not-- my "tuner" and i agreed it will be best to start there and move onto possibly the greddy product (adds more control) or a complete standalone if this proves to be insufficient. however, if the psc1-001 is enough i'll have saved a lot of money and effort etc.



does anyone know the stock fuel injector and fuel pump specs?

I thought that would be common knowledge i could quickly find with a search, guess not...

[99C280Sport]

Sorry this is off topic but, Drew your PM box is full!

I texted you earlier today but I was in a bad service area so I am not completely sure it went through.

Just wanted to let you know I got the shifter trim piece out on Thursday so it should be to you very soon.

Also, just wondering if/when you got the ashtray and cupholder piece sent out so I can know when to expect it - you can reply via PM or text me if you'd like.

Thanks, and sorry for the hi-jack!

[c280nz]

my guess with the c43 your injectors would be around the
225-250cc mark x8

[expo5.0]

sorry- ya, it all went out. I didn't get to the place to ship until thursday afternoon though. Last week got crazy busy for me (and ya, 90% of my posts on here are from work... lol)

expect it thursday?

[99C280Sport]

Originally posted by expo5.0
sorry- ya, it all went out. I didn't get to the place to ship until thursday afternoon though. Last week got crazy busy for me (and ya, 90% of my posts on here are from work... lol)

expect it thursday?

No reason to be sorry, same happened to me last week too with school coming to and end. I'll make sure someone is here Thursday - did you do DHL again?


Thanks for everything so far, the wood looks great. I hope you are happy with the carbon fiber

[expo5.0]

i'm liking the carbon fiber, thanks

the fuel pump part numbers recommended for aftermarket suppliers match with my car, the 99 sl600, and the 99 e55. this seems like good news- if there was any headroom left with that pump with the sl600 then there should be enough for my fuel needs. I'll find out soon enough either way.

i'm still looking for injector specs though

[expo5.0]

so we used none of the HPS instructions

the install thus far has been VERY simple.

Changing the plugs and wires was much harder than the SC side of things.

It's ridiculous how stupid the HPS instructions are compared to what needs to be done- they make the easy stuff look awful hard and the harder stuff isn't included in them...

here are a couple pics-

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/1112.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/1111.jpg

and the wheels i'll actually be running- with HUGE tires on them that are way too tall (which makes them look not as good). Also, i will be refinishing them in graphite

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/113.jpg

I also added HID fogs-

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/114.jpg

[Nitrogenbalance]

Brother!!!

Looks good. See what I meant about the directions?? I used all types of wobble extensions and such to replace the plugs, it was a long job, still better than the HPS install for me though. I have an amsoil cone filter that you should buy too. I'll dig up the part number. They are very high quality and they make the perfect size that you can wedge down there. You do know that the MAF unit goes where you have the filter now right? The angle is strange so I had to use a 45 degree silicon elbow also to aim the filter down and not straight into the headlamp. I had to cut a little sheet metal to do this.

Looks great so far!! You go with the copper plugs and magnacores??

I can't wait for you to get this thing on the road. I just took mine off the road for the winter and destroyed my renntech front wheel on a pothole, I've been ignoring it for a week or so like it didn't happen...fender got destroyed also. Didn't even see it comming.



Originally posted by expo5.0
so we used none of the HPS instructions

the install thus far has been VERY simple.

Changing the plugs and wires was much harder than the SC side of things.

It's ridiculous how stupid the HPS instructions are compared to what needs to be done- they make the easy stuff look awful hard and the harder stuff isn't included in them...

here are a couple pics-

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/1112.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/1111.jpg

and the wheels i'll actually be running- with HUGE tires on them that are way too tall (which makes them look not as good). Also, i will be refinishing them in graphite

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/113.jpg

I also added HID fogs-

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/114.jpg :( :(

[expo5.0]

we're planning on cutting to piping to still fit the filter where it is now- i will probably upgrade the filter from that (checker pos) one after everything fits.

I have two of every piece of piping the kit comes with

thanks man

-drew

btw- can you draw the belt routing? i think i have the wrong length belt, but before we figure out the correct length custom i want to double check.

[expo5.0]

also, yes i have copper plugs and the magnecors on the car

i'd say the plugs wires took 3 hrs, but we were drinking pretty heavily too, lol.

one more thing too- what did you do at the back of the motor?

What piece is supposed to fit there? I have two copies of a metal piece that looks like it would almost fit (but they won't clear my firewall) OR it will fit if i use the stock plastic 90 degree elbow turned 45 degrees or so to the side- in order to do that i'll need a 4"-3.5" silicon reducer hose.

also, does the hps coolant reservoir have the temperature sensor probe or whatever it is in the bottom of it still? Can you snap some pics of it and/or try to let me know if it has a mercedes part number on it? I wasn't provided one and would really love to be able to find one.

thanks again

[Nitrogenbalance]

I've got the belt route drawn at home and I'll post it. The fender wreckage and bent wheel really have me ignoring my car right now.

Not sure what you mean about the back of the motor. The supplied HPS pipes had a 90degree elbow that bolts directly to the back of the intake manifol where the TB is. The TB(throttle body) mounts in front of the blower now.

[expo5.0]

ah!

i'm missing a piece- i have already fixed the problem then

-drew

[Section 8]

expo how is the sc working out for you on the 43

[expo5.0]

well so far so good? it looks nice sitting in there half installed... so far it's gone very smoothly putting it in though, other than the missing parts, but those haven't been too hard to work around.

[Nitrogenbalance]

Here is a picture of some of the parts. The elbow you need that bolts up to the original TB location is second in from the top left.

http://www.geocities.com/gregcclk55/HPSInstall.htm?200710

Here is the original filter location. The HPS parts included an odd silicon bend with a tiny filter behind the headlamp area. Area is tight and everything rubs when the motor moves. I worked but it wasn't right.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k198/nitrogenbalance/KristaDoodleHopinDimer211.jpg

In this picture(kinda useless) you can see a blue 45degree elbow following the TB location next to the blower. The elbow conects to the MAF housing below which ends with the filter. I got longer and less wide filter and it sits almost behind the fog light. One thing that might help when you get parts is that the MAF housing is 3.5in and the TB is 3in. I still haven't gotten a camera so I'll try to get better pics of this.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k198/nitrogenbalance/HPSC43-1.jpg

Here is the belt diagram the top left would be the SC pulley the directly to the right would be the idler pulley. Its not my best MS paint work.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k198/nitrogenbalance/BeltPath98HPSC43.jpg[URL=http://]

[expo5.0]

shoot!

well, i see how it is supposed to work etc.

however, i'm missing too many of those pieces for it to work exactly the same way as that with my car!

that piece for the back of the motor is straight up gone!

i think i can make it work though without having to spend any more $$$

i did call hps in regards to getting a new coolant tank- big mistake lol. Adam didn't even call back he just send a bitchy email.

[Nitrogenbalance]

What exactly was the email??

The throttle body should be installed where you currently have the filter. Connect that to the MAF housing and then the filter. You'll need to extend the MAF/TB wiring to reach the front of the motor.

Where your filter currently sits? is there a flange on the end of that pipe that is square with 4 holes to accept the TB? If so you could just make a copy of that same flange. This would mount up to the rear of the intake manifold allowing you to just bend some 3in pipe for the rear of the motor.

[expo5.0]

i have a piece that looks like it is supposed to fit the back of the motor as your saying- however, it doesn't clear the firewall...

I was already planning on fabricating a piece (already 1/2 done) to make it work- but i'd love a picture of the piece that you have- as i'm curious if the piece i got in the kit was the right one or not.

-drew

[expo5.0]

nitrogenbalance- where'd you get the engne covers your using now/

[Nitrogenbalance]

Originally posted by expo5.0
i have a piece that looks like it is supposed to fit the back of the motor as your saying- however, it doesn't clear the firewall...

I was already planning on fabricating a piece (already 1/2 done) to make it work- but i'd love a picture of the piece that you have- as i'm curious if the piece i got in the kit was the right one or not.

-drew

It should clear the firewall? Did you remove the TB from the back of the intake manifold yet? You need to remove the TB also, that would free up a few inches. If not than I agree that the part may be different. I'll try and get part # and pic of that area soon.

[Nitrogenbalance]

Originally posted by expo5.0
nitrogenbalance- where'd you get the engne covers your using now/

The engine cover is from an ML55 trimed slightly to fit.

[expo5.0]

i'm an idiot-

i've been reading this the whole time thinking maf and not tb

where does the tb end up moving to?

do both the tb and the maf move way up front?

i'll check your pictures etc. too in a second, but yeah, wow.

[c280nz]

haha ive also been reading this hole time also thinking i wonder if he knows the difference between a maf and tb :D

[Nitrogenbalance]

The TB has four bolts and square flat mounting area, ya know with the butterfly, you know what a TB is, your just confused from reading HPS literature. They can confuse an apple with an orange. Remove the TB from the back of the intake mani and that elbow pipe should mount up. Check the bolt length and flange thinckness of the new piece to double check as I'm not sure if you use the OEM mounting bolts? You may have to source some hardware as you'll need 4 for the pipe and 4 more for mounting the TB up front.

Anyways the TB mounts up to the intake pipe mounted to the supercharger. The pipe mounted to the SC's intake should have a 4 bolt flange on the end to accept the TB. From the TB you will need a 3in to 3.5in 45 degree elbow. You need to get one that goes from 3in to 3.5 because the MAF housing mounts in front of the TB but it is a 3.5in tube where the TB is 3in. You also need to trim the elbow slightly for fit. Connect the open 3.5in end of the elbow to the MAF housing and then the air filter to the MAF housing.

I really have to get you some pictures. I had someone with previous experience helping me from across the country also....

I forgot to ask, how was tapping the heads for longer mounting bolts?? It was very scary on my half as the aluminum heads aren't cheap. I was shaking while doing it....ha ha.

[Nitrogenbalance]

More MS paint work, truley an artist at heart. I hope this helps a bit.

Also, did you get the splitsecond MAF voltage clamp. I've got a brand new extra one if needed.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k198/nitrogenbalance/DrewsHelp.jpg

[expo5.0]

wow- thanks so much! I'd be stuck right now without help, for sure.

Tapping the heads went very well actually- I didn't have the special tool and straight free-handed it, lol.

I did not get the voltage clamp with my kit- instead i ended up ordering psc1-001 from split second... same thing plus a little more adjustability. The guy i bought the kit from paid for it too!

It seems now that my biggest current challenge is figuring out how to run a coolant expansion tank that allows me to keep my stock windshield washer tank... i've got a couple on order that may do the trick.

-drew

[Nitrogenbalance]

Would you like the part # from the expansion tank I used. It is an audi part and was relativly cheap around $40 or so. Fits perfect. Let me know about that, and also the filter part # if you want to go that route also.

You must have the split second unit that allows you to pull timing. This will be usefull especially if you want to increase boost. However, during hot summer days the the ECU will pull timing under boost as this kit is heavily handicapped by heat. As a safe guard you could dyno in the heat and pull timing just before the knock sensors pick it up as a safeguard.

In the end it will be worth it..I was frustrated installing mine.

[Nitrogenbalance]

Here is a pic I found showing the expansion tank.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k198/nitrogenbalance/OilCoolerPics001.jpg

Here is a dyno of what you might expect if things go well. This dyno was done around early day in the most perfect of conditions. Muliple runs I have seen the car drop 40hp due to heat soak and super high IAT's.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k198/nitrogenbalance/HPSC43.jpg

Here is a video of what the car used to sound like. It souds much meaner now that I've done the exhaust work. This should give you a good idea of what the blower sounds like on a stock C43.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZzB4OBKsfI&feature=related

[expo5.0]

what about the temperature probe in the bottom of the expansion tank?

otherwise- definitely send me that part #!

my unit doesn't allow me to pull timing- it just allows me to change the way the "clamp" changes the voltage. I can upgrade beyond that down the road, but for now went with the cheapest option.

if i'd known you had the voltage clamp i'd have gone that way. This unit was only $100 though anyways.

thanks again for all the help- i'll check out the video when i'm not at work.

[c280nz]

be careful not to lean it out to much expo,
nitrobalance afr is pritty good, u should either get a wideband o2 sensor or put it on a dyno to make sure the a/f ratio is not to lean

[expo5.0]

wideband isn't all that accurate imo- unless calibrated on a dyno.

no real point in just adding one to a car.

My car will be going straight to the dyno after we get it running as well as after every subsequent modification. I'm very anal about not driving stuff until my tuner has done what he can with it.

I'd be worried about doing too many modifications with just the voltage clamp on the car and not having the "right" compensations. Of course what i have is barely a step better, but it will at least allow me something.

i'll likely be running fuel pressure, boost and voltage. With my stereo i need to be a bit careful about potential lean situations due to low voltage (and weak fuel pump output). I don't really feel that a/f or wideband will tell me anything that fuel pressure won't (once they do it's pretty much too late) and boost is fun plus helps find leaks/problems (and it's cheap)

all i'm running on the subaru right now is boost- but that will be changing to boost and fuel pressure as well.

now if i had a way to take full advantage of a wide band (tuning wise) then i'd definitely go that route and get one i coudl calibrate using the equipment on the dyno.

-drew

[c280nz]

i was meaning to use one to dial in your a/f ratio,
and they are reasonably accurate
but if you are taking it to a dyno that is what they will do,
you will have a bit of room for adjustment through fuel pressure, the voltage clamp, and bigger injectors if you choose that route.

[expo5.0]

anyone have hps directions for hte install of the voltage clamp?

or the wire colors for my maf signal and tach signal? and locations.

also, nitrogenbalance- where did you take power from for the voltage clamp? does hps directions say to use the existing power on it's way to the maf?

[expo5.0]

maybe you have the directions for the fmu installation too? haven't yet gotten to that and i know we don't have directions hopefully they might provide some insight.

[Nitrogenbalance]

Gonna throw the HPS install CD in the PC tonight. I'll see what I can dig up for this stuff. There is a fuse box that you plug the star diagnostic into, I powered the voltage clamp using power from there. I'll get back on this.....

[expo5.0]

thanks a lot man- i'm hoping to finish up installation tomorrow.

[expo5.0]

update-

remaining questions-

tach wire color and location?

fmu install instructions?

manifold breather thingy routing instructions from hps don't make sense (the front of the motor thing that attaches to vacuum sensor) how is this supposed to be?

thanks!

everything else is worked out- we ended up doing some cutting and getting my air filter pretty low where it should get some good cool air etc. etc. and everything else is sorted.

i should have completed pics next weekend?

[expo5.0]

Finally got everything installed on the car and got it on the dyno to see where i stand with things prior to putting the car back in storage. I wanted it done now so that i could get a feel for what parts i would need to order etc. before spring so that i'd know what i'd need/have a budget and plan to have to ready to go come May.

current relevent mods-

hps gen I kit
split second psc1-003 in place of the voltage clamp

Car runs very well in some parts of power band, but "breaks" up and hits some kind of an electronic fuel cut or something in others. Any rpm's over 5k or so are likely to trigger this (most likely due to pegging the maf), also often this happens if you aggressively get into it in the mid range (pegging the maf possibly?).

Additionally, it runs lean throughout the entire rpm range (for my taste). It seems that it is likely the ratio which the 02s are trying to regulate it to. Split second makes a scaler which will allow me to adjust this if i want to (now that i know i'll always be in closed loop) and i may want to go that route.

All that said- the car made very respectable power given the issues and i can definitely see some crazy numbers just around the corner...

my plan (please give me feedback)-

add fuel pressure gauge so i can determine if it is truly the 02s limiting my fuel rather than pump or injectors

buy a new maf sensor (i can get jus the sensor right? part #?) and test it with that installed to see if that fixes the driveability. Also, custom build a larger maf housing such that i'm not pegging the meter quite so easily... Another option here might be to buy a larger meter from an w211 e55 or something (do they share the same sensor plug?) as with the scaler i would be able to adjust that to "fit" what the stock ecu expects to see if necessary.

consider adding split seconds lambda scaler- hopefully, based on the results of more dyno time with the maf issue resolved and the fuel pressure gauge installed.

thanks for any help/advice

[c280nz]

opps double post*

congrats on getting it all installed tho

more questions below

[c280nz]

im a bit confused about a few of your interpretations of whats hapening with your car.
- first off your car wont stay in closed loop thru the rev range under load ( eg 100% throttle) it will switch to open loop and go off pre- determined- ecu fuel maps.
factory 02 sensors read between 14-15:1 for closed loop low throttle situations for fuel economy emisions etc, but this is too lean for wide open throttle with load, you should be aiming for down around 12.5:1 which is approx .85 lambda for good safe power wide open. ( if anything even richer than that especially with a heat producer such as a roots style supercharger)
the more fuel you get it the cooler it will keep your engine and more importantly prevent the onset of engine knock.

what did your a/f map on the dyno look like? can you post up some maps, and your dyno chart etc.

in my oppinion you wont be getting your car enough fuel and should address this with larger injectors and possibbly a adjustable fuel pressure regulator,

i think you are maxing out your maf signal to your ecu because you are trying to send a too higher signal to get enough fuel in, with larger injectors you could reduce the signal at low revs and increase it at higher, instead of only increasing it and running out of voltage

do you follow what i am trying to say?

"quote"
"add fuel pressure gauge so i can determine if it is truly the 02s limiting my fuel rather than pump or injectors"
-i dont understand this comment at all??? have you made a typo or what?

is the split second adjustable?

[Section 8]

expo im dieing to know the gains on

hp
touque

got any ruff ideas

[expo5.0]

the car does not switch to open loop- MANY late model cars never do even under wot...


if i put in larger injectors it will still strive for the same 14.5 that it is now, same with a larger fuel pump (so long as it stays in closed loop like it is)

what i meant by that one comment was that my 02 sensors/ecu was "limiting" my fuel/keeping the ration oat 14.5 --- which makes it hard to tell how my fuel pump and injectors are behaving.

my a/f sticks right at 14.5 basically no matter what under wot

currently, i peg the meter at 4800 rpms and 280 hp on dyno dynamics

-drew

[c280nz]

well theres your problem, yor power is going to be limited by your a/f ratio if you cant get it to change below 14.5,

it sounds like quite a struggle to get you car tuned then, with the stock computer not having a bar of it-



so is this split second lambda scaler to trick the computer that it is at 14.7 when really it is richer?

[expo5.0]

yeah, i'll be able to shift the readings of the o2 sensors such that it thinks it's running at like 17 (or whatever is necessary to get the ratio i want) That is assuming it will work with our stock 02 sensors- but i see no reason why not. We have 5 wires going to our o2s right... i'm not with my car right now?

That will take care of the top end issues to a great degree (as that can be adjusted as a function of rpm) and will allow me to get the maf readings back in check on the top end.

regardless, i STILL likely need to do something about the maf size/get a new sensor in order to fix the issues completely.

sound like i'm making sense?


-drew

[c280nz]

im not sure if you will be maxing out your maf, more likely maxing out the signal to your ecu after going thru the split second,
can you put a volt meter/ oscolascope on the signal going to the ecu to see if your maxing out at 5v, and also put it on the maf side of your piggyback to see if you max that out, if you get me

edit- i still cant imagine that your standard injectors have enough capacity to also provide the engine + boost, especially with out even higher fuel pressure,
i think you are asking to much fuel from your ecu+ injectors after your split second,

the best idea is large injectors and reduce the maf signal at low revs, and increase the signal at high revs, to keep it in the 14:1 range to keep your computer happy being the goal

[expo5.0]

i've heard from many people that the injectors are enough- of course i'll be happy to upgrade them as soon as i can actually determine that is necessary.

I have a rising rate fpr/fmu at i believe 4:1 ration on the car already

i have datalogged the maf voltage during a few partial runs- it is totally pegging itself on the INPUT side of the split second stuff. I realized i didn't make that clear in the first post.

There is definitely some possibility that my stock maf is not working properly and that a new sensor in the stock housing would solve MANY of these issues- in fact, currently that is my first planned move.

Unless other people really have better ideas- i plan on throwing a new maf on and seeing if that fixes the stuttering or whatever you would call it (i tihnk it may). I will then do some datalogs and see if i need to go larger housing. I will also then do a few runs and try to see if it goes into open loop at wot after those issues are worked out- if not, then i know i need to go with the split second lambda "scaler" or something similar.

-drew

[expo5.0]

the injectors are absolutely enough- that's certain, i did some more research.

i'm going to upgrade the fuel pump regardless and soon due to the miles on mine

i have maf options on the way





what temperature range will my intake air be in between the blower and the motor?

[Lordkoo]

Originally posted by expo5.0
the injectors are absolutely enough- that's certain, i did some more research.

i'm going to upgrade the fuel pump regardless and soon due to the miles on mine

i have maf options on the way





what temperature range will my intake air be in between the blower and the motor?

I seriously doubt your MAF is at its limit here. I would consider fuel guage/ regulator and high flow fuel pump. Several of my friends who upgraded to turbo in their B18C had the same problem like yours. Issue was that the engine was not getting enough fuel/ pressure to reach the higher rpm. New fuel pump, regulator/ guage solved the issue.

[expo5.0]

lordkoo- the voltage output by my maf went out of the range which the ecu can use... an issue which most definitely needs to be fixed. This was determined through a lot of research and empirical data recorded on a dyno.

i also already know for a fact that my stock fuel pump should be good for the fueling needed for the 4 psi i'm currently running (since the hps kit doesn't specify a larger pump).

I will be upgrading my pump here in the near future since i want to go beyond the 4 psi the kit was designed for and want to do so as safely as possible.

thank you for your input- and i really do appreciate it. However, i'm not going to get anywhere with this if i don't respond honestly and fully. Hopefully you will read what i wrote above and tell me why i'm wrong, and it will solve some problem i'm having (or someone else will). At the same time though- this isn't a turbo b18 and the fuel pump they were using stock vs. my stock pump etc. is basically impossible to compare.

[c280nz]

put you maf into a bigger housing or us a similar style larger unit.
and the reason i am for larger injectors is
they will flow more instead of raising fuel pressure which in my veiw is a bit of a cheap fix which is also hard on the pump.
the lower the working pressure of the fuel pump the more it will flow.
injectors have massively varing range of hp dependant on pressure, i find it hard to beleive that your standard ones are built with such a small pulse width in mind, thus leaving you with heaps of room to "open them up" to say.
so yes your stock injectors may have the capacity to flow enough under systems fully tunable for whatever pulse width you want, but what will be limiting you is that the stock computer and stock map will have a built in limit in the map for maximum pulse width/duty cycle of the injectors, thus limiting power.
the stock maps wont be designed for fueling up into the range you want for the power you want out of them,
with larger injectors just as a direct swap the computer will operate relatively normally(using your split-s) but be dumping in more fuel up top.

but as you say to get it running at 4psi they may be ok and just look at the larger maf option first.

as with temperature, run a air temp sensor to find out, alot of systems vary and im not sure how much heat soak your supercharger will have over its rev range (this will vary) also it depends on how cool the air your cai receives

[expo5.0]

thanks!

that was all valuable information which will help guide my next steps...

i will have a new maf sensor and a couple of housing options here this week- but it may be too cold to test them out.

-drew

[expo5.0]

we absolutely do not have a fuel pump in-tank correct? we only have the external pump?

I'm going to go ahead and order/upgrade my fuel pump soon preemptively since my stock one has so many miles on it.

I've been talking to aeromotive and know which pump i will use depending on whether or not we do have an intake pump- i have found nothing anywhere suggesting that we do have one, but don't have any experience with late model cars which don't...


also, our cars have a true return style fuel system- right? I know i have a return line in the rear, but i can't figure out where it leaves the front...

-drew

[c280nz]

are you wanting more advice but from me? i tell you all i can an im pritty sure im right but just dont know exact statistics about the c43,
well so on that note, if its the same as my c280 which it most probebly is as i dont imagine thed change the chassis fuel tank layout then it only has an external fuel pump which hangs under the car and if you are under the car it is under a plastic cover infront of the rear suspension, this is also where the fuel filter is mounted, the fuel return is always off of the fuel pressure regulator and this is where you need to look, and yes it is a return to the tank,

[expo5.0]

yeah, exactly the same as C43

it's just very odd that any new car doesn't have an in-tank pump

-drew

[c280nz]

there a stupid idea and very hard/ + a little bit dangerous to change in alot of cases.

have a look on that russian parts website for a break down of your car

[expo5.0]

in-tank pumps are stupid?

[c280nz]

ok not stupid but a pain in the ass to change/upgrade

[expo5.0]

they can be- it IS actually really nice that we don't have one. It does make this really quite easy. I"m just shocked since i've never owned a car that didn't have one, nor worked on one.

I guess no reason to complain (or keep asking about) a good thing.

I'm on to trying to figure out how to add air-water intercooler.

[c280nz]

yea thats a good idea! they probebly work the best with relation to pratical reasons.
you could also try a front mount intercooler, but you may struggle for bumper space for the size one you would need to run,
or you could run water injection for charge air cooling < by far the most effective but only downside is the water you will use and carrying space for it

[expo5.0]

i am not confident in relying on meth alone with as much heat as this kit will make etc.- it's too much meth too much of the time etc.

I hope the air-water will cool it to the point where i can choose to run meth or nitrous at wot only.

air-air would be prohibitively difficult to plumb

[expo5.0]

these are in regards to my 1999 C43 mercedes running 5 psi of boost from an eaton for which there is no tuning software or standalone applications. thus i'm resigned to tuning by changing injectors, fuel pressure (through fmu and pump or otherwise), and mass air scaling- i have the basic split second scaler.



I have ngk afx wideband and cyberdyne fuel pressure, vacuum/boost, and voltage gauges currently installed (i intend to add a iat gauge down the road to monitor the success of my upcoming air-water intercooler set-up)



for some reason right now (i just finished install and plan to call summit tomorrow unless i figure this out tonight) the fuel pressure gauge isn't reading- it just scrolls "low". I have it installed on the return line just "upstream" of my fmu and i checked it's signal output at idle and get about 5v- if you can help with a solution for this let me know.







NOW ON TO THE QUESTIONS-



I understand the basics of tuning but have no knowledge of part throttle or "tip-in" type tuning etc. My car sits at about 13.0-13.5 afr under wot and the afr actually goes down toward the high end of my power band (which pleases me greatly as i was worried i didn't have a good enough fuel system yet). However, at mid-low rpms and around 0 vacuum/boost it drops all the way down to the 9.0-10.0 range.



what do i want the afr to do as i begin to get on it but do not floor it? do i ever want it to dip down like that? is my goal 12.0, 13.0, 14.5 or whatever throughout mild tip-in/hard part throttle accleration? What is my main goal in setting things up part throttle wise?



how do you guys feel about my 13.0-13.5 afr under wot with my car? I will have to get my fuel pressure gauge working and determine what is up with that before i can determine what i might need to do in order to get it any lower (i already have my scaler set up to add as much fuel as possible under wot)

[c280nz]

quote:
for some reason right now (i just finished install and plan to call summit tomorrow unless i figure this out tonight) the fuel pressure gauge isn't reading- it just scrolls "low". I have it installed on the return line just "upstream" of my fmu and i checked it's signal output at idle and get about 5v- if you can help with a solution for this let me know.

+++++++++++++++
what is a fmu? u want to connect the fuel pressure guage to the fuel rail so it "sees" the same fuel pressure as the injectors
++++++++++++++


I understand the basics of tuning but have no knowledge of part throttle or "tip-in" type tuning etc. My car sits at about 13.0-13.5 afr under wot and the afr actually goes down toward the high end of my power band (which pleases me greatly as i was worried i didn't have a good enough fuel system yet). However, at mid-low rpms and around 0 vacuum/boost it drops all the way down to the 9.0-10.0 range.

++++++++++++++++
tuning
6.0:1 Rich run limit
9.0:1 Low power, black smoke
11.5:1 Rich best torque at WOT
12.5:1 Safe best power at WOT -aim here
13.2:1 Lean best torque at WOT
14.7:1 Chemically ideal - what the standard o2 sensor aims for at low-mid throttle
15.5:1 Lean light load, part throttle
16.2:1 Best economy, part throttle
18-22:1 Lean run limit

what do i want the afr to do as i begin to get on it but do not floor it? do i ever want it to dip down like that? is my goal 12.0, 13.0, 14.5 or whatever throughout mild tip-in/hard part throttle accleration? What is my main goal in setting things up part throttle wise?
+++++++++++++
part throttle between 12.5:1 to 14.5:1 would be fine around the 14 at lower revs heading towards 12.5 as the revs get higher or the load increases


how do you guys feel about my 13.0-13.5 afr under wot with my car? I will have to get my fuel pressure gauge working and determine what is up with that before i can determine what i might need to do in order to get it any lower (i already have my scaler set up to add as much fuel as possible under wot)
that would be acceptable but slightly richer would be nice like maby dipping into the high 12s
but at the 5psi u have 13:1 would be acceptable.

i prefer a bit richer with our more advanced n/a ignition timing,
-u dont want detonation, so any extra fuel you add is used purely for cooling, eg going from 13.5:1 to 12.5:1 you are adding roughly 10% more fuel for cooling / safety

[expo5.0]

I would have preferred to install the fuel pressure sender right on the fuel rail- but i would have to modify the supercharger bracket in order to make that work and i'm not sure that's a good idea. I'm not sure where it would be smarter to do it.

the fmu is basically a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. so what i'm saying is i isntalled the pressure sender in the rear of the car by teh fuel pump on the return line. seriously though i don't know where better to install it on the car without having to modify something i dont want to get into.

i didn't make my question about the "tip-in" clear enough i see- but i already basically got it answered elsewhere. I will be attempting to tune the car so that any time i'm "in" the throttle under load i'll be right around 11.8-12.0 (at least until i add some sort of timing adjustment to the car)

so- how much larger injectors will i need to go from 13.5 to 12.0 or so with all else the same? Also, will the car idle and run well out of boost with those injectors installed and as much adjustment as i can make with the maf scaler...

thanks man

-drew

[c280nz]

it should idle alright if u use ur maf scaler to reduce the signal at lower revs/idle.

u need to know what ur fuel pressure is before you can decide what size injectors you are going to need,
the fuel pressure sender needs to be on the other side of the regulator, the return line isnt under pressure as it is just a open into the tank return,
can you plum it into the fuel line between the pump and fuel rail?

[expo5.0]

yes, and yes-- that was my problem and was pretty dumb of me (but that's nothing new... heh)

Unless it snows all day tomorrow i will have some data about fuel pressure vs. afr vs. boost etc. etc.

if it snows all day i will just have worked on my stereo and changed some fluids (i'm doing royal purple in everything)

[c280nz]

my guess is that ul need injectors between 30-50% bigger than you have now, as to pick ur fuel ratio up to 12.5:1 from 13.5:1 is about 10-15% more, and also you want some reserve capacity so you can turn ur scaler back so its not pegged at max,
have fun with the oil changes

[expo5.0]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/1.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/2.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/3.jpg

[expo5.0]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/ic3.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/ic4.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/ic2.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/teamsilence1/ic1.jpg

Sorry for cell phone pics

no hard data yet- other than that the core was at 24 celsius today after some hard driving when the sc outlet was at 38 (ambient was 18) according to my laser thermometer. iat gauge is backordered.

parts-

2004 cobra heat exchanger
rule 401c pump from frozenboost
3/4" hose kit from frozenboost
core from frozenboost
assorted other things
some cutting!

and of course- custom output for supercharger... look at the pics closer if you didn't notice



also, swapped to xxx xxx 982 pump and did some tweaking etc.=11.5 afr under wot. going to go out and try to do some finer tuning this weekend for part throttle "smoothing"

-drew

[c280nz]

awsome! love the custom supercharger to ic pipe woulda been a bit of fancy custom fab!
at least you can get the a/r ratio back to that low! thats good news.
im goin to be hookin a fuel pressure guage up in the next few days but i think my pump mit be to small hint hint u wana sell you ol one haha

[expo5.0]

yeah, you can have mine for $100?

i think they are almost $300 new right?