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Denlasoul
09-26-2003, 10:03 PM
Hi all:

I was wondering if anyone knew or can tell me how to find information about my stock camshafts? Supposedly, AMG ran "hotter" cams for the C43. I wanted to see if there was something out there that could replace my OEM's, but I need the onfo to compare.

Also, where could I find information facts? A Tech Manual?

Thanks,

DLS

speedybenz
09-30-2003, 09:14 AM
DLS,

I have been looking for the same info. I think the best way to get this is to lease a complete C43 head from German Potomac Auto. Then we can get the cam measured up look at the cam rocker arms and see what the ratio is and also look at the ports and valves and combustion chamber.

What do you think?

Jeff

speedybenz
09-30-2003, 09:31 AM
DLS,

Potomac German Auto says they will send out the heads, but we would have to pay for them. To get the money back wee would have to resend them back and incurr a 20 percent restock fee which is about $300.

So if we want to know all there is to know about a c43 cylinder head we have a way to do it. Total cost would be about $400 give or take a little.

I do not have the resources to fund this out of my pocket, but would be willing to put up my fair share and do the measuring and flow testing(maybe) etc.

I think its a great idea worth a hard look. It's very possible that with some porting and new cam the motor could make some 30-80 extra Hp.

Jeff

Denlasoul
09-30-2003, 10:59 AM
Speedy:

I agree with you. I think there could be some valuable information that can be obtained from your plan. I will continue on my search, but at least we have an option.

Resource wise, I am in the same boat as you. I am willing to split for the cost b/c I think it could be very valuable to both of us (and anyone with a M113 engine). So, correct me if I am wrong, we have to buy the heads. Measure for specs, and return them. In the process we eat about $400. What is the cost fo the heads? Do I even want to know? LOL :)

Let's see what we can possibly come up with. Would we be able to obtain the information form something like ALLDATA?

DLS

edit: I also stumbled upon this site www.pro-flow.com They are for performance MAS. If you get a chance, maybe look it over and see if there is potential?

edit2: just figured out that cost is about 2K. Kinda slow today...my mind thinks its Monday.

CKlasse
09-30-2003, 05:55 PM
ALLDATA has all the info. Do you need these numbers also?!!!! lol I can look it up tomorrow.. again!

BTW Den, I am too lazy to look for your thread on the MAS. Here is the info.

I assume you dont have a DSO, so you prolly just wanna see if the MAF/P is still within factory specs. Use voltmeter and read the GRD and Output signal to your ECM.

If you look at your MAS/F connection, there are 5 pins. From left to right....

Pin 1 - Intake air temperature signal
Pin 2 - Circuit 87
Pin 3 - GND
Pin 4 - 5v
Pin 5 - Air mass signal

So you would want to connect the multimeter to the Pin 5(out put signal) and Pin 3(ground). If you do have DSO, you can actually see the graph at 500ms/div. Well anyhow...

Set your multimeter at 1v. Hook the pos and grd as stated above, and play around with the TPS. watch for the following voltage ranges....

IDLE = 2.15-2.25 V
Slow Accel = from 2.15-4.5 V
Full Decel = Sudden drop to 1.75V
Snap Accel or WOT = 4.5V

If you notice out of range signal, or sudden or large changes, it is time to replace your MAS. If your WOT signal is below spec, it is time to clean/replace it also.

Have fun! :D :)

CKlasse
09-30-2003, 05:58 PM
C43 Head is $2000?! ouch. :( I am purchasing a used C220 head for me to rebuild for $300 and I thought it was pricey. A whole engine block+head is $850. Both quote include shipping charges.

Try Valley Motor! :) You never know.

Denlasoul
09-30-2003, 07:40 PM
CKlasse:

Awesome! That data will help me out when I get to check my MAS. My neighbor said he has the tool for it, and I know he is not referring to a voltmeter.

If you can get us that other info, that would be great too. I really really really appreciate the effort you are doing for me.

Thanks a bunch,
DLS

speedybenz
09-30-2003, 08:28 PM
CKlasse,

So are the MAS voltages controlling the fuel in the closed loop function as well as the O2 sensors?

Also what is to stop you from putting a voltage pot on the air temp pin and then changing the output voltage to change the fuel from rich to lean by fooling the ECU?

And yes please post the ALLDATA numbers again.

Jeff

CKlasse
10-01-2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by speedybenz

Also what is to stop you from putting a voltage pot on the air temp pin and then changing the output voltage to change the fuel from rich to lean by fooling the ECU?


Nothing! And yes MAS, TPS, and your 1st bank O2 sensor output dictate the ECM. I remember someone in the shop worked on bypassing a 78 280zx's MAS before. He simply put 4.5V output into the ECM - constant openloop mode. But again he doesnt have O2 sensor, so I am not quite sure how it works on modern car.

I was thinking of doing the same when 'the turbo project' was still going on. Some piggy back/ EPROM chip upgrade actually plays around with the same idea. Instead of changing the voltage output, they changed the output perimeter. Same difference. :)

The ECM will try to keep 12:1 AFR no matter what. In theory, you can simply put the right HZ output from the O2 signal (always running 12:1) and simply play around with the MAS to adjust how rich/lean you want to be. And in this case, I would stay within 2.5-4.5V MAS out put range to create "a false lean condition" in order to avoid one. Better rich and lean right?

Given that we can map out a detail voltage to RPM range for the MAS (100ms range on DSO?) -- Next, you'll have to know your Injector specs (C220 is 58ml), and how much air flow your throttle body allow at WOT so you can calculate whatever AFR range you need to be.

There are so much things you can do simply by playing these output signals. But again, easier said than done!

PS.. There will be pages after pages of info on the C43 head specs alone. I ll see if I can email them directly to you.

speedybenz
10-01-2003, 09:10 AM
CKlasse,

Have you gone to a web site called Autospeed.com they are a DIY site and go into much detail on how to make voltage regulator systems or pots?, with nice exploded view drawings. He also explains how to use them.

JEff

CKlasse
10-01-2003, 03:02 PM
Subcription required? :(

speedybenz
10-01-2003, 03:43 PM
CKlasse,

Yes there is a subscription to pay but very much worth it. It is the best Auto Performance DIY site I have seen.

Jeff

CKlasse
10-01-2003, 03:50 PM
Yeah, I have been browsing the topics.. I wish they would give us a lil more hints. GRRR... I ll just have to get the annual subscription.

CKlasse
10-02-2003, 07:24 PM
Bad news...
ALLDATA doesn't have C43 head cylinder specs :( It's weird. I have never had any prob. finding these specs before. Maybe AMG just doesn't like to release their secrets!

speedybenz
10-02-2003, 07:39 PM
CKlasse,

Does ALLDATA have the specs for a current or 1999 on E430 or CLK430. The engine should be basically the same and the head very close with maybe some minor diff's in valve sizes and cam timing. But the info would still be good to have. Maybe even the crankshaft data. The rod journal diameter is what I am after.

Jeff

CKlasse
10-10-2003, 12:34 AM
unfortunately, I couldn't find any info on the 4.3L. :(

Sorry guys!

speedybenz
10-10-2003, 08:44 AM
What type of engines does alldata have info for? A 3.2 liter 1998 or newer is still the same engine architecture.

There must be some way to get some of this data.

Jeff