hard starts prob

[vinnie201]

i have been having hard cold starts ever since october. i used to get hard starts before the summer, then it disappeared with the warm weather and now its back. i bought a brand new maf and that didnt help the starts but hopefully it will improve my fuel consumption. anyways it literally takes me twenty turns of the key to keep my car running. each turn it will run and then stop. run a little more then stop. when the engine is warm however she starts right up, but when she sits for a while she gets pissy.
i searched and found some info. i changed the fuel pump relay fuse. nuthin. so i ordered a fuel filter (it hasnt been changed in 3 or so years) but i dunno if that would help in my situation, but i figured it needed to be changed anyways.
what are the odds that its the water temp sensor? or perhaps the dam engine harness? i dont have any issues when the car is running and no CEL. please help me save 20 minutes of extra sleep.

[1995c280]

did you change the actual fuel pump relay in the trunk or just the fuse that is attached to it. i would try that. another thing to try is to hook up a gauge and check fuel pressure with the key on after the car sits to make sure you don't have a leaking injector or something. def sounds like fuel though by your symtoms. hope this helps.

[xvvvz]

Another thing you might want to check is the fuel pressure regulator to make sure you don't have the common problem with the diaphragm going bad.

[vinnie201]

i checked the regulator. pulled the line and no gas came out. i smelled the line and it did smell of gasoline tho. i practically had the line in my nose so i dont know if i was trying too hard. how hard is it to change the regulator?

[OzC36]

If you pull the inlet line on the fuel pressure regulator, I would expect fuel to piss out all over the place when the ignition was turn on and engine cranked.

If it is not doing that, then I would seriously worry about the fuel pump or the electrical circuit powering the fuel pump.

The fuel pressure regulator ensures a constant fuel pressure is available to the fuel injectors. But if there is no fuel pressure coming from the pump for the regulator to regulate...well then you need to go back upstream and check the source.

[vinnie201]

would a gas cap affect the situation or perhaps the pressure in the fuel line? i was told by emissions to buy a new gas cap this past summer and i bought a temp universal cap but maybe i shud try the oe cap from the dealer?

[OzC36]

would a gas cap affect the situation or perhaps the pressure in the fuel line?

Gee, I don't know...
...but, for less than twenty bucks, you can eliminate that as a potential source of the problem.

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=cw5oglfqvfpkjt45iiu3xd55&makeid=800016@Mercedes&modelid=1195488@C280&year=1996&cid=22@Fuel%20%26%20Air%20System&gid=5900@Fuel/Gas%20Cap

[vinnie201]

ok i have been searching other forums as well and discovered that it mite also be an ignition coil. so im gonna replace the cap and filter, which probly wont do a dam thing, and then check out my coils and those spark plug connectors to see if there are any problem areas.

[OzC36]

vinnie,

I had exactly the same problem as you described. But I couldn't tie my problem to hot or cold weather. Yes, possibly humid or wet weather was worse.

I tried everything and I mean everything.

The final fix was, I bought a new ignition coil. I tried it in all three positions and finally the last coil position magically cured the whole problem.

The dud coil passes every test that I can easily perform. So I don't know how to determine a dud coil except by replacement.

[vinnie201]

with that said, i will probably buy the coil for 60 bucks (hoping that it is one coil that is giving me problems) and plug it in and test. worst case is i have a new coil and i eat 60 bucks. but if it mite solve the problem then so be it. thanks for the input oz ill post the results as soon as i test...

[c280nz]

look at it this way, the fact you are on this forum and finding parts and doing it yourself is saving you sooooo much money compared to taking it to the stealership,
you could probebly buy 3 new coils a new engine and transmission and four new tires for the price it would cost for the stealership to only half diagnose your problem and probebly not even fix it!

once i had a problem with my car that was a common problem with a easy fix well documented on here, and i took it into the stealership to ask them to fix the problem and they didnt beleive me that that was the problem, and wanted to do something else which he was convinced was the cause,
i asked for the part, and a 10% discount since i was paying in cash and left :D

*god i never stay on topic i just rant
:p

but i hope the coil fixes the problem

[OzC36]

once i had a problem with my car that was a common problem with a easy fix well documented on here, and i took it into the stealership to ask them to fix the problem and they didnt beleive me that that was the problem, and wanted to do something else which he was convinced was the cause,

At MB, so very true...because in the main, you are dealing with people-persons...ie., SALESMEN who are selling you a service.

You are NOT talking to scientific-persons...ie., TECHNICIANS or MECHANICS!

[c280nz]

Originally posted by OzC36
At MB, so very true...because in the main, you are dealing with people-persons...ie., SALESMEN who are selling you a service.

You are NOT talking to scientific-persons...ie., TECHNICIANS or MECHANICS!

yea sometimes the techs dont even know, i only talk to the techs when i go in, the parts guys and then go out the back and talk to the mechanics/techs every time i go in for parts and advice,
(actually not normaly for advice as i was refering to, just for diagram printoffs :) )

so i guess im not the normal customer, or normal case,
but my dealership is quite small so i guess that would also have an effect on the amount of trouble they see in the w202,

i cannot comment on larger stores, -my admitance

[OzC36]

i only talk to the techs when i go in, the parts guys and then go out the back and talk to the mechanics/techs every time i go in for parts and advice, (actually not normaly for advice as i was refering to, just for diagram printoffs )

Wow, with that relationship, you could get a moonlighter to come and work on your car on the weekend for the correct price!

[vinnie201]

you crossed the gun line into the mechanics bay?! i look like a bum when i go to the dealership so naturally salesman stay far away..

[vinnie201]

ignition coils are a no go, i still have the fuel filter to install but after that i have no idea. i mite try a coolant temp sensor, it has something to do with fuel air mixture and its about $20. im probly going to have a brand new car before i find the root of this bastard.

[vinnie201]

ok so i go to change the fuel filter today, i take the plastic cover off and my fuel pumps (i have 2 apparently) and filter are hanging on by threads. two of the rubber mounts have shredded so my fuel pump/filter is hanging on like a bracelet on a fat girl. i didnt even bother changing the filter until i order the rubber mounts. i didnt even want to touch the dam thing cuz it looked like it was gonna fall rite off. i really think this fuel filter hasnt been changed or even saw the light of day in a long long time.

[c280nz]

another thing it could be is the crank angle position sensor,
search for it and the starting problems it causes on this forum,
"hard starting" "crank position" "hot start problem"

have a look using those, altho it isnt exactly the same problem it may be the same cause

[vinnie201]

fuel filter was a real bastard to change, everything was rusted in. had to buy two new screws for the filter and pump carriage. no change in situation tho.

[junklar]

How were you able to take out the rusted screw? I was trying to take the screw out from mine, but wasn't able to.

[OzC36]

I suspect we are focused on the fuel supply here as the disease rather than a mere symptom of the disease.

The engine management system has an emergency mode that shuts down the fuel supply to the engine whenever it detects a certain number misfires or zero fires in the cylinders.

For this reason, an electrical or electronic malfunction always causes to fuel to shut off and appears to the driver as a lack of fuel supply. hence he goes chasing the wrong thing, ie fuel starvation instead of electrical malfunction.

Misfires or zero fires are ultimately caused by the be lack of spark. Lack of spark in turn can be due to bad spark plug, spark plug connector, spark plug wires, ignition coil, electrical signal to the ignition coil due to connectors or wires FROM the ECU (engine wiring harness). Poor or intermittent signals TO the ECU can be a result of bad crank angle sensor, camshaft sensor and MAS. To a lesser extent the signal TO the ECU are the intake air temperature, coolant temperature, knock sensors, and O2 sensor(s) will affect smooth operation but unlikely to cause the ECU to shut off the fuel supply. The big culprit is the engine wiring harness insulation degrading and crumbling away. This can fry the expensive electronic boxes I am told.

Detection of whether there is spark voltage in the ignition harness can be determined while you try to start your engine, by using a timing strobe light that has a suitable spark detection sensor.

[vinnie201]

Originally posted by junklar
How were you able to take out the rusted screw? I was trying to take the screw out from mine, but wasn't able to.


I used a pair of vice grips to turn the screws and only one came out. The othe screw just kept turning so i had enough room to twist the head off with the vice grips. after i took the broken screw out i noticed that the nut had came off and was spinning with the screw. so i went to home depot and got some new screws and nuts. mine were size M5-.8

[vinnie201]

Originally posted by OzC36

Misfires or zero fires are ultimately caused by the be lack of spark. Lack of spark in turn can be due to bad spark plug, spark plug connector, spark plug wires, ignition coil, electrical signal to the ignition coil due to connectors or wires FROM the ECU (engine wiring harness). Poor or intermittent signals TO the ECU can be a result of bad crank angle sensor, camshaft sensor and MAS. To a lesser extent the signal TO the ECU are the intake air temperature, coolant temperature, knock sensors, and O2 sensor(s) will affect smooth operation but unlikely to cause the ECU to shut off the fuel supply. The big culprit is the engine wiring harness insulation degrading and crumbling away. This can fry the expensive electronic boxes I am told.


The thing is, I thought with the wiring harness problem most people experience performance issues as well as starting issues. I just have starting issues. And it is only when the engine is cold. If i try and hit the gas when my car is struggling to run during the starting period, the car will shut off. If i turn my headlights on while the car is struggling, the car will die. I find it easier to start if my radio is off (power antenna motor not running). even when the vacuum pump for the climate control goes off it causes my car to die during the initial starting period. In fact the only way for my car to stay running is too turn the key indefinitely until on one of the turns causes the car to idle high (about 800). Then she will drop to about 600, where, depending on how she feels that particular day, she dies or she runs long enough for the idle to kick back up.

[OzC36]

Hmmm, I am only guessing now but it does sound like lean mixture. Fuel system malfunction...low fuel pressure (fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator), fuel injectors leaking or restricted flow through fuel injectors? The following may be of some help:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/us60324.htm

http://www.autohausaz.com/mercedes-auto-parts/mercedes-fuel-pumps.html

[vinnie201]

i dont know what happened but problem solved. after i had changed the filter i never really drove the car becuz of snow( she sat on jack stands for three days). then for some reason she wouldnt even crank. i look under the hood tuck some ignition wires around the pressure regulator, and fiddle with some vacuum hoses leading into the throttle intake. and now she starts up fine. I dont know if it was the filter or fiddling with the wires or hoses that restored some lost connection, but everything seems to work fine now.

[vinnie201]

hard starts are back and with a vengeance! I just dumped two bottles of dry gas in ( i shud have tried this initially) hoping to get wutever water in the lines out, maybe my lines are freezing? after that tank finishes i will run some seafoam, ill post if any changes...

[timmyj51]

More problems from that damned six-banger! I think three-
quarters of the complaints on this board are with the
C280! Thank my stars I have the C220. Have never
had any problems with it.

[SLAMMED_C]

a few ideas for you..
-have you tried connecting a battery charger or a booster pack while cranking?
-have you checked to see if you have a good spark.. removed a spark plug wire and grounded out the electrode on the wire to see how good the spark is?
-have you tried connecting a fuel pressure gauge to the shradder valve on the fuel rail to check fuel pressure while cranking?
-have you check the overvoltage protection relay, or replaced it? (someone with an older M104 please chime in, I cant remember if the early C280's had one)?

hopefully one of these ideas will help you out.
let us know any other info you can offer about the issue.

[vinnie201]

i just changed coolant temp sensor and no change. i went to walmart and bought a battery tester. tested the battery right after trip and my voltage read 12.2. from what i read this is somewhat low. i then tested the alternator (charging system) and the charging is fine. I didnt have anything else running (lights, radio, etc). im going to let the car sit for a few hours and then check again, since that is when i normally encounter hard starting. I am interested to see if i really jus have a weak battery. would this cause my hard starts? theoretically the car may start better after i drive (when hot) becuase its fresh from being charged via the alternator, and that once the cold air has a chance to affect it (after sitting for a few hours) the voltage drops. does this make sense? again i will test in a few and in the meantime anybody know of any good batteries? , i wud appreciate any chiming in....

[junklar]

Maybe one or more of your fuel injectors are bad. Someone on the forum had resolved their hard-start issue by changing the fuel injectors.

The hard starts on my car happen only on cold starts. If I turn the car off and back on again, it will start right up. I don't find it a big problem. I'm pretty sure one of my injectors is bad.

[vinnie201]

that is a possibilty but is ther anyway to check to kno for certain what the hell is wrong? so far i have changed: maf sensor; coolant temp sensor, ignition wires, all 3 ignition coils,dry water treatment, seafoam treatment, fuel filter, battery test (battery is good). i guess my next direction is to test fuel pressure. i will check in sooner or later with an update.

[vinnie201]

i tested fuel pressure today. fuel pressure is good. i tested it both cold and warm and the pressure was good a little over 50 psi. the quest continues.....

[vinnie201]

anybody have facebook here? i posted a video on my account displaying my starting woes, dont kno how to post videos here. pm for name and ill add ya

[OzC36]

Originally posted by OzC36
Hmmm, I am only guessing now but it does sound like lean mixture. Fuel system malfunction...low fuel pressure (fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator), fuel injectors leaking or restricted flow through fuel injectors? The following may be of some help:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/us60324.htm

http://www.autohausaz.com/mercedes-auto-parts/mercedes-fuel-pumps.html

Dirty/leaking Fuel Injectors giving restricted or poor spray pattern?

[vinnie201]

retricted flow would at least show up on the pressure gauge no? pressure was normal wen i tested it. just changed plugs and repositioned air meter boot(it olooked a bit cocked before). but still no change. i think engine temp sensor is next (the one that plugs into the intake boot) cuz the one in there was all oiled up and gunky. i am exhausting all my options here lol.

[junklar]

you would have to remove the injectors from the fuel rail, and see if the injectors are leaking any fuel by turning the key in the ignition to position 2.

[OzC36]

Troubleshooting Fuel Injectors:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us80414.htm

[vinnie201]

im really hating this car now. had the brakes flushed and alignment done, tech said i need 4 eccentric bolts for the front end becuz my camber is out of whack. they also said i was missing a bolt for my right rear control arm. why i do not know. they put a bolt on and then telll me that soomething on the right rear is bent becuz my toe tracks out. they dont think it is the control arm but say that they have to start measuring stuff and that its going to be expensive. it was already at 710 for the flush/ alignment with bolts. i told them to jus skip the front end bolts now. i want to kill myself (figuratively speaking). i have sunk way too much into this old piece of shit. i want to drive it back into the hell it came from.

[OzC36]

A complete set of rear suspension arms is very cheap on Ebay ($161):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Mercedes-Control-Arms-190E-190D-C220-C230-C280-C36-C43_W0QQitemZ350135845146QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20Acces soriesQQadiZ2865QQddiZ2811QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ 20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMoto rs_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3501358451 46&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

[OzC36]

Eccentric bolts are only $10 each:

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=4uefaa452dw5fd55lfz24g45&makeid=800016@Mercedes&modelid=1195466@C280&year=1994&cid=27@Suspension%20System&gid=7485@Suspension%20System%20Nuts,%20Bolts,%20Sc rews,%20Washers

[vinnie201]

oz that is semi good news, they also called me back saying it looks like the rear control arm is bent. so i would need a rear control arm too. 190 for the control arm installed 480 for the 4 bolts and alignment. im figuring buying the bolts as you say and paying an indy to install and align them. i told him not to do shit. hes charging me for an alignment and flush and a bolt for the bent rear control arm 300 bucks. i haave to be honest also and say that i might just get rid of the car. not including what i have paid for the car, i have put nearly 10 thousand in parts, rieger kit, exhuast, and paint. and most of the labor for parts was done by me. the worst part is i can probly only get between 3-4k for it, if that. i dont know what to do. im just really pissed and tired at this point.

[vinnie201]

ok finally some good news. hard starts are gone (for now). i think it was either the ovp relay, or the fuel pump relay. i was in the trunk rewiring my amp to make things neater. while in there i wigled the fuel relay for the hell of it. i had also been playing around with the ovp tapping it and such. but now she starts on a dime, even after sitting overnight. i ordered the ovp just to be safe (even tho the fuse on mine is not blown maybe internal cmponents are shot). as for the suspension, i went under the car to check and the arm that needs changing is the lower thrust control arm, which looks to be an easy fix (25 bucks for the arm on autohaus). i also bought the eccentric bolts in hopes that i can get somebody to install them and get my tires perfect. so all said and done im hoping to get out of this by spending 200 bucks (under 300 i hope). all i will have to pay for is the installation of eccentric bolts and an alignment. then i can breathe easy again.