Finally Re-maped the ecu...

[Pagz]

Its been nearly 2 years!...geez


Initial problems with the setup were lack of boost control,surge and poor bed in with the JE pistons/rings,stock clutch slipped....this time we had much better boost control,no surge....no blue smoke,the new clutch is doing its job too!.

It didnt go off with out a hitch though,there is still a mysterious misfire at certain loads and RPM...altering dwell in a weird way helped...so did finding incorrect polarity on one coil and trying various spark gaps...however its still present...last test will be to replace the coils with something more beefy...as this looks to be the most likely cause due to possible lack of energy at high chamber pressure areas.

Turns out the intake advance was never turned on when we initially tuned,so was a little bit exciting the first time it was switched as there was some fear i may have incorrectly installed the intake cam which could result in piston to valve bondage...so we tryed it and the engine died...............and then after turning it off wouldnt start....wont forget that feeling for a while.
turns out all was ok though somehow the ecu didnt retard it back for starting(or couldnt due to lack of oil pressure)

The guys chucked in a rough tune with the cam advanced gave an instant 20kw@w gain through almost the whole rpm.

The 550cc injecters are now at 90%,with boost around the 14 - 14.5psi mark we are making a smooth 204 - 206kW@w and very good torque,we did make 219kW@w on the old tune however that was with 15.5psi.
...I think the stock fuel pump would also be at limit.

The turbo was proven capable of producing 18psi at 2000rpm,thats alot!...it points towards the turbo being alittle to small...so a possible future upgrade would be to bolt on the larger turbo in the same family.the lower end of the power curve has been detuned to curb the wierd misfire issue.

good results can be seen on the graph....torque and power were greatly improved throughout the RPM range,a big increase in torque and over 50kW@w more makes for a much more exciting drive.

With an estimated 18% drivtrain loss where at about 330hp at the engine,not as high as i would like to be but the power curve is good so im happy and very poor for now.


Results:
notice ambiant Air temp on the day was against us 27 vs 18 last time!.
rpm limit is now 6300.


http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3161/7356580453_large.jpg


Cheers,
Paul

[Pagz]

hmmm....the blue lines are not quite alighned correctly,they should end at 6000rpm...this makes for around 70kw gain on the new tune at one point!.

[koepfsm]

so did you have to reprogram your ECU and if yes what program where you useing

[Pagz]

hey,
I Run a Motec M400 for the engine which we have just remapped,the stock bosch ecu now only runs the instrument cluster!.

Paul

[illusionaryline]

Originally posted by 23K
hey,
I Run a Motec M400 for the engine which we have just remapped,the stock bosch ecu now only runs the instrument cluster!.

Paul

was this difficult to get set up???

[Pagz]

Its fairly straight forward Just rewired the engine to the motec ECU with new temp,TPS,and MAP sensors...because the car runs a CAN bus system both ECU's need crank and cam timing input so you still have RPM on the cluster.
Bosch also needs original engine temp for cluster temp.

Setup took a short while due to the need to degree the engine and work out pikup signal angles off the flywheel and cam so we could at least get the motec to idle the engine...after that the tune as is good as the time you spend on it.

I wouldnt say it was toooo difficult to setup...was difficult to pay the tuners though.

[illusionaryline]

Originally posted by 23K
Its fairly straight forward Just rewired the engine to the motec ECU with new temp,TPS,and MAP sensors...because the car runs a CAN bus system both ECU's need crank and cam timing input so you still have RPM on the cluster.
Bosch also needs original engine temp for cluster temp.

Setup took a short while due to the need to degree the engine and work out pikup signal angles off the flywheel and cam so we could at least get the motec to idle the engine...after that the tune as is good as the time you spend on it.

I wouldnt say it was toooo difficult to setup...was difficult to pay the tuners though.


Did u get a loom with the computer, or just adapt the OEM one?

what did the tune cost if you dont mind me asking? because im in aus, and prices would be fairly relative.

[Pagz]

Hmmm,tuning costs will vary alot from shop to shop,when we first tuned the motec the place i use was charging $150+gst per hour on the dyno...its now 200+gst but they have a flash new dyno this time round,total tuning costs this far are just over $3500,alot more than it would have been due to problems with surge,misfire,boostcontrol etc etc etc

First turbo setup i made a loom,but when we installed the motec ecu I used a universal motec loom with sensors...think it all cost about $800 by the time i got it here from Oz,picked the M400 up while on holiday over there though as it was alot cheaper that way!.

[illusionaryline]

u wouldnt happen to have links/shop names in aus, of where u got parts from?

[Pagz]

Hmm thats going back a few years now =)

Im pretty sure i got the Loom,Ecu and sensors from Morrie @ horsepowerinabox.com

[SLAMMED_C]

hey Paul!
finally getting her tuned huh! about time! thats some pretty good power.. very streetable, must pull nice.
hopefully you can get that misfire straightened out. will you go with an aftermarket coil set up? I guess since the Motec unit is firing the cylinders you can go to an individual coil set up?.. or do you have that now?
hopefully you will get some vid of that beast in action now that you've had a chance to do a tune!!

[Pagz]

It pulls very nice indeed! =)
you can feel the twist in the rear at low rpm as boost comes on,was a crazy feeling the first time I took it out on the road!...better check the condition of the rubber couplers more often now ;)

Funny thing is i planned to run single coils in the beginning,but after the first tune ignition seemed ok....so i sold the coils thinking i would never use them....doh.
but once we sorted surge with the bigger exhaust housing it would appear we noticed the misfire.

Im not totally convinced the oe coils are to weak for the task...im going to test it further this weekend!...if they are i guess we will mount four under the plenum!

definitely will be some footage at some stage!....was gutted i didnt have a cam for the dyno runs...they were mostly done in 4th gear so we were pulling to 210km/h...sounded insane!.

[Pagz]

Stock dyno run(nearly 5 years ago!) vs New turbo setup:

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3161/7356580454_large.jpg

[515]

insane... :eek: the HP is just nice for street drive..

[SLAMMED_C]

Originally posted by 23K
It pulls very nice indeed! =)
you can feel the twist in the rear at low rpm as boost comes on,was a crazy feeling the first time I took it out on the road!...better check the condition of the rubber couplers more often now ;)

Funny thing is i planned to run single coils in the beginning,but after the first tune ignition seemed ok....so i sold the coils thinking i would never use them....doh.
but once we sorted surge with the bigger exhaust housing it would appear we noticed the misfire.

Im not totally convinced the oe coils are to weak for the task...im going to test it further this weekend!...if they are i guess we will mount four under the plenum!

definitely will be some footage at some stage!....was gutted i didnt have a cam for the dyno runs...they were mostly done in 4th gear so we were pulling to 210km/h...sounded insane!.
were they an aftermarket coil.. or OEM coils.. but for the newer generation M111 with individual coils?
man that has to be some nice pull!.. needs some vid of you on the highway! that rear end shimmy is nice.. but unnerving if you arent ready for it!
do you maybe have a bad coil.. or a bad supressor?. could be something simple.

[Pagz]

Mine are standard updated coils so iv been told!

The newer M111 has single coils???? 0o

If so either they picked up that was a weak point of they have done it for better power/economy....either way it looks like i will do four coils based on the information iv found...

Turns out the M111 has your standard wasted spark setup where one leg of each secondary goes to there pairs 1/4 and 2/3 the secondary circuit is completed via the ground between the two spark plugs........

What this effectively means is 2 of the plugs on the M111 have the centre electrode as positive and the other 2 negative.....

Now according to google,a spark plug with its grounded electrode as negative can take anywhere from 20 - 45% more energy to make the strike....this is because electrons flow better from the hotter -ve center electrode!.

What this then means is you should not run single tip platinums etc etc in you wasted spark engine,but instead use plugs with platinum etc on both the positive and negative electrode to minimize errosion and maximise spark regardless of polarity....Hence the spark plugs from BERU i got from the local MB supplier have platinum on both!.


While we were on the dyno we chucked in some cheap NGK's with .7 gap,they made no diference until today when i went to remove them to put the originals back in......snapped the f'n socket and lead in #3...the cheap plugs must have a sharp curve where the socket goes on....what a PITA....kinda like having a 150mm wisdom tooth shatter at the dentist...ended up braking the spark plug too.....managed to suck it all out with the vaccum though....so didnt get to do much fault finding on my misfire =(

[Pagz]

Despite all that,it was something simple...some how manage to swap the 12v for one of the switched grounds,this resulted in one coil getting full 12v and the other receiving the 12v in series with the other coil....no wonder it misfired^^

Havent taken it for a run yet,pretty confident thats the problem though =)

[c280nz]

those are good pulls paul!
with good whp, alot of people will think that isnt much but alot of people wank on about hp figures with no evidence like you have!

and good to see you figured out the missfire, i had no idea wasted spark/ spark plugs were that complicated, hmm i wonder if my spark plugs are platnium, from memory there not, i think i went for copper as they are ment to be better at reducing detonation :confused:

i think theres alot more in that engine tho! i think thatl be a safe tune, so i hope ur thrashin her.


O/T: u goin to top gear? looks mean, few mates are goin but i dont think i can cos ive been away a bit lately, was in aucks this weekend just been for a weding, man it was hot! wicked weekend it was!
was stayin in matakhana and the weding was in leigh,

yea

[SLAMMED_C]

Originally posted by 23K
Mine are standard updated coils so iv been told!

The newer M111 has single coils???? 0o

If so either they picked up that was a weak point of they have done it for better power/economy....either way it looks like i will do four coils based on the information iv found...

Turns out the M111 has your standard wasted spark setup where one leg of each secondary goes to there pairs 1/4 and 2/3 the secondary circuit is completed via the ground between the two spark plugs........

What this effectively means is 2 of the plugs on the M111 have the centre electrode as positive and the other 2 negative.....

Now according to google,a spark plug with its grounded electrode as negative can take anywhere from 20 - 45% more energy to make the strike....this is because electrons flow better from the hotter -ve center electrode!.

What this then means is you should not run single tip platinums etc etc in you wasted spark engine,but instead use plugs with platinum etc on both the positive and negative electrode to minimize errosion and maximise spark regardless of polarity....Hence the spark plugs from BERU i got from the local MB supplier have platinum on both!.


While we were on the dyno we chucked in some cheap NGK's with .7 gap,they made no diference until today when i went to remove them to put the originals back in......snapped the f'n socket and lead in #3...the cheap plugs must have a sharp curve where the socket goes on....what a PITA....kinda like having a 150mm wisdom tooth shatter at the dentist...ended up braking the spark plug too.....managed to suck it all out with the vaccum though....so didnt get to do much fault finding on my misfire =(
Yes.. the new generation (2001-2002 C-coupe M111 2.3l Kompressor engines use 4 individual coils.. where as our generation M111 (up to the 2000 W202 M111 Kompressor engine has the 2 coil set up with waste spark. then in 2003 they dropped the M111 and went with the M271 a 1.8L supercharged engine.. again with 4 individual coils.
Im guessing they went with the individual coil set up in the last generation M111 Kompressor for better fuel economy/power.
but glad to hear you got your mis figured out Paul. hopefully that will be the end of your woes!!
good info on the spark plugs as well!

[Pagz]

Originally posted by c280nz
those are good pulls paul!
with good whp, alot of people will think that isnt much but alot of people wank on about hp figures with no evidence like you have!

and good to see you figured out the missfire, i had no idea wasted spark/ spark plugs were that complicated, hmm i wonder if my spark plugs are platnium, from memory there not, i think i went for copper as they are ment to be better at reducing detonation :confused:

i think theres alot more in that engine tho! i think thatl be a safe tune, so i hope ur thrashin her.


O/T: u goin to top gear? looks mean, few mates are goin but i dont think i can cos ive been away a bit lately, was in aucks this weekend just been for a weding, man it was hot! wicked weekend it was!
was stayin in matakhana and the weding was in leigh,

yea

Thanks man!
yeh a good example of that is the first dyno tune with the m400....while it made 220kw@w(~205 on that particular run) look at the shape of the power curve vs the new tune...we are making less but it would have absolutly smoked the old tune....this is something most people fail to realise when throwing around high end Hp figures

Hmmm yeh dont know too much about detonation and spark plugs...i know to hotter plug can cause preignition!...the plugs i have are gapped at .8 and run one shade cooler than stock!.

Hahha yeh have been giving it heaps,it looses traction in second at WOT on a nice dry road!...which is something it really wasnt capable of without some help from the clutch or steering wheel.

I think theres alittle bit more in her for sure!!!...might end up raising boost alittle after about 3000 but need bigger injectors and pump!:S...worked on her till midnight at the storage place to rewire the ignition and its all good...finally! =)....now that the ignition problem is sorted we will be able to raise pressure in the lower area too!

Went to get Cert today....i need to have a driveshaft hanger made in case the coupling breaks...so back to the fabricators at some stage in the next week or so.

o/t:
True!,i was at matakana too most of saturday just went to the markets and out to Omaha beach for the arvo,nice out there huh!....drove past a wedding at a Vinyard just past matakana heading towards warkworth,everyone was standing on this massive deck...it looked HOT haha....was that the wedding?
Had spf45 on and still got burnt^^ was out there for about 4 hours though and im pasty as hell^^

Would like to go to top gear ay...however iv used up all my get out of poor free cards for the next 6 months at least:S ...ah crap its valentines this weekend^^

[Pagz]

Originally posted by SLAMMED_C
Yes.. the new generation (2001-2002 C-coupe M111 2.3l Kompressor engines use 4 individual coils.. where as our generation M111 (up to the 2000 W202 M111 Kompressor engine has the 2 coil set up with waste spark. then in 2003 they dropped the M111 and went with the M271 a 1.8L supercharged engine.. again with 4 individual coils.
Im guessing they went with the individual coil set up in the last generation M111 Kompressor for better fuel economy/power.
but glad to hear you got your mis figured out Paul. hopefully that will be the end of your woes!!
good info on the spark plugs as well!

Thanks bro!,hopefully thats the last i see of the ignition problems!...changing to 4 coils was going to be a pita!....it runs much smoother with even sparks now...have just called in the tuners and had the dwell and a little fuel on the idle changed,feels much better!.
Interesting move on the newer M111's 2001 - 2002....its more expensive..so they wouldnt have done it unless there was a decent gain=)...Hmmmmm would they bolt direclty into our M111??0o
Cheers!

[c280nz]

loosing grip in 2nd on a dry road with those tires ur running is impressive!
i would have thought that brace below the driveshaft in the tunnel would have been enough, i mean it has a center bearing also, and i think they even use the same setup on the more powerful c43 cars? itl be a pain mounting the hoop.

yea i running cooler plugs also. ngk 8's i beleive.

do you know how much the pump can move?"have you had it flow tested? just get another one and run them in parallel.
im amazed your dyno guy didnt wank on about a surge tank, they do around here
:confused: i recon there not that essential tho.

good to hear you got the missfire fixed!

i was staying just before matakhana, as you come over the last hill into matakahana if you turn right at the top of the last hill i stayed up there at a place called quest.
and the weeding was very close to leigh, and was on friday.
i went thru matakahna on saterday and there was like a masssive trafic jam and i was in the country, i was like typical auckland! haha
went to a beach in leigh on saterday and for a swim it was mint!
im sure sunblock with spf that high is worse for you than the actual sun! haha

[Pagz]

I would have thought so too!....however i think the regulation says it must be 360 degree,I havent had a good look at it yet maybe we can simply make a "U" to bolt on top of the existing one...otherwise we will just mount a new one behind the gearbox,shouldnt be too hard the guys i use make them often!
Wounder if the C43's use a stronger coupling? 0o

No sure how much the stock pump flows...i guess we could test it at some stage though it maybe better just to chuck in one of those 500hp(040?) bosch jobs and be done with it though knowing my luck the OE one will be good for 600hp haha...fuel lines should be big enough....though will definitly have to go bigger injectors...whatapita

As for the surge tank i think that would be overkill unless your planning to track the car....but who knows i wouldnt be suprised if the oe tanks are well equiped to keep fuel at the pump under heavy cornering...and if you did a surge tank would you then be concerned about extra baffle in the oil sump?...aaaah where does it end 0.o

Ah nice!
LOL yeh I was stuck in that traffic too fooo ages....the famous matakana markets and a nice hot day makes most of auckland head that way!...it was an awsome day out there though!.

[pisit]

Hey Paul,

haven't been in the forum for a while. Your car is looking great as always. 205KW! that's more than impressive.

for the fuel pump, i would reckon you to go with a surge tank. This is for your peace of mind that fuel will be properly feed to the engine at all time. the only down-side is that it won't have stock look at the back of your trunk.

currently i'm running a Walbro 392 fuel pump with no surge tank, which i don't feel confident when running low in the fuel tank or cornering hard. My plan is to run a surge tank with the following setup; stock pump --> surge tank -->Bosch 910 or Walbro

I'm also planning for a bigger injector, maybe 550cc or 660cc.

Troy

ps. any advice of spark plugs that I should be using? i'm using a NGK Iridium #7.

[SLAMMED_C]

Originally posted by 23K
Thanks bro!,hopefully thats the last i see of the ignition problems!...changing to 4 coils was going to be a pita!....it runs much smoother with even sparks now...have just called in the tuners and had the dwell and a little fuel on the idle changed,feels much better!.
Interesting move on the newer M111's 2001 - 2002....its more expensive..so they wouldnt have done it unless there was a decent gain=)...Hmmmmm would they bolt direclty into our M111??0o
Cheers!
Good to hear she is running smooth.. now some VIDS??!!
so got some more tuning done and its better huh.
I dont see why individual coils wont bolt up.. they should. I cant see them making 2 different valve covers for the M111 up to 2000, and then another set for the 2001-2002.
205kW.. about 275HP?? man thats pretty damn decent! must pull real nice!
I had a buddy with a 2002 C-coupe, was pushing around 270HP to the wheels.. he made me look like I was standing still!! quick ass lil car he had.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by pisit
Hey Paul,

haven't been in the forum for a while. Your car is looking great as always. 205KW! that's more than impressive.

for the fuel pump, i would reckon you to go with a surge tank. This is for your peace of mind that fuel will be properly feed to the engine at all time. the only down-side is that it won't have stock look at the back of your trunk.

currently i'm running a Walbro 392 fuel pump with no surge tank, which i don't feel confident when running low in the fuel tank or cornering hard. My plan is to run a surge tank with the following setup; stock pump --> surge tank -->Bosch 910 or Walbro

I'm also planning for a bigger injector, maybe 550cc or 660cc.

Troy

ps. any advice of spark plugs that I should be using? i'm using a NGK Iridium #7.

Hey Troy!,
Havent seen you about for a while,whats new on your turbo setup?...how much HP are you running?...550's might be alittle small as thats what i run at the moment.

Thanks,im still undecided on a surge tank setup...might look at chopping open an OE tank before i make any big moves if any=)

[Pagz]

Originally posted by SLAMMED_C
Good to hear she is running smooth.. now some VIDS??!!
so got some more tuning done and its better huh.
I dont see why individual coils wont bolt up.. they should. I cant see them making 2 different valve covers for the M111 up to 2000, and then another set for the 2001-2002.
205kW.. about 275HP?? man thats pretty damn decent! must pull real nice!
I had a buddy with a 2002 C-coupe, was pushing around 270HP to the wheels.. he made me look like I was standing still!! quick ass lil car he had.

Yo,
for some reason i dont get post notification when you post on my threads? hmmm =)

Yip its around 275hp@ wheels...feels good...though im sure we could get alittle more out of her with more fuel and an extra 1 or 2 psi but dont want to push the reliablitly just yet.
Its kinda wierd we made 220kw last time,but that was on there old dyno,it could be that there new one reads more accurately,
Or maybe just the much heavier oe pistons made quite a difference....Dont know.

With the ignition sorted for now i will stick witht he wasted spark....but if it gives any more problems the 4 coils would be a decent upgrade...especially if its direct bolt in,will look into it!

Was looking to do some Vids this weekend but theres a storm up north where i was planning to go,theres a few nice strights up there with no traffic...not so good in the wet so might have to wait till the following wknd;)

Laters bro,
Paul

[pisit]

this is my dyno graph about 4 months ago. a very un-smooth curve and a drop torque.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/toei06/Dyno.jpg

took the car out on track last weekend and had a broken transmission, torn shaft :'( . will have the mechanic fix the transmission and re-map it this time. hoping to see a much better line.

[Pagz]

Hmmm those lines dont look too good at all,both in stability and power,the torque curve should be much more flat!.

Whats happening under 3500 rpm?

do you have a boost curve plot as well?

Oh no!,What broke on the transmission?,the gear box the rubber couplers or the driveshaft itself?

Did you get any footage from the track day? =)

[pisit]

yup, a very very unhealth lines. there was some problem with the car and dynojet on the day i dynoed it, so can't the data prior of 3.5k rev.

for the transmission, i mis-shifted it in a tight corner. shift into 2 and full-throttle and the driveshaft inside the transmission broken instantly.

didn't get a chance to take any footage :(

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/toei06/ECR%20Vol6/trackv7.jpg
right before the car was broken.

[Pagz]

Bad luck man!...I wouldnt have thought the drivshaft in the gearbox would be that easy to break though i guess going from hard deceleration to hard accleration would slap everything round pretty bad,it may have also been weakend by prior hard use over time?.do you still run the puck clutch disk?

[SLAMMED_C]

Originally posted by 23K
Bad luck man!...I wouldnt have thought the drivshaft in the gearbox would be that easy to break though i guess going from hard deceleration to hard accleration would slap everything round pretty bad,it may have also been weakend by prior hard use over time?.do you still run the puck clutch disk?
UH OH. you broke???

[Pagz]

Ross,
Troy Broke the driveshaft in the gearbox,ouch!.

[SLAMMED_C]

oh my bad!.. too bad.. cool looking w202 though. at least it looks nice standing still!!

[pisit]

Originally posted by 23K
Bad luck man!...I wouldnt have thought the drivshaft in the gearbox would be that easy to break though i guess going from hard deceleration to hard accleration would slap everything round pretty bad,it may have also been weakend by prior hard use over time?.do you still run the puck clutch disk?
yup still running the 4 puck clutch. first i thought it was the dual mass flywheel that snap, but i was wrong.
as you said, i trying to push the car and with sudden decel/accel

[c280nz]

Originally posted by pisit
yup still running the 4 puck clutch. first i thought it was the dual mass flywheel that snap, but i was wrong.
as you said, i trying to push the car and with sudden decel/accel
can you take some pics of what you actually destroyed? il be interested to see which part and how it broke!

[Pagz]

Originally posted by c280nz
can you take some pics of what you actually destroyed? il be interested to see which part and how it broke!

Me too!

Whats the red bit on the grill?

The dual mass must be able to take a fair beating then!,have you examined it for damage?...pretty sure you cant resurface them they need replacment when done,there very pricey!
Any plans to replace it with a single mass at some stage?.

[pisit]

the mechanic didn't even bother to open the gearbox. it's easier to find an used unit and just replace it. but will try to ask the mechanic to open it.

the lil' red thing is the track timing module.

there's plan to change to a single mass flywheel. the plan is to use a single mass flywheel from 300E (W124). might resurface and shave of some weight.

oh well, first thing for now is to remapped the FCON piggyback and get some smoothhhh power curve (finger cross!)

[pisit]

Originally posted by SLAMMED_C
oh my bad!.. too bad.. cool looking w202 though. at least it looks nice standing still!!
hope it ran better than it did :p

[Pagz]

Originally posted by pisit
the mechanic didn't even bother to open the gearbox. it's easier to find an used unit and just replace it. but will try to ask the mechanic to open it.

the lil' red thing is the track timing module.

there's plan to change to a single mass flywheel. the plan is to use a single mass flywheel from 300E (W124). might resurface and shave of some weight.

oh well, first thing for now is to remapped the FCON piggyback and get some smoothhhh power curve (finger cross!)

Remap will do good!,as for the flywheel does the W124 bolt right up to the M111 with the same timing?0.o