best bang for buck

[zmatt]

Before I came here there didn't seem to be anyone doing a lot of work on the W202's performance wise. Brabus, Klemann and Carlson gave up years ago and the consensus on mbworld was a chip, overpriced headers and a very conservative pulley from asp. It seems here there are some more industrious members who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty and experiment. So maybe you guys can give me advice. My long term goal is at least c43 parity, if i can do more then all the better. I don't think I can get there just with pumping the boost on the stock blower + bolt ons. It seems like I need to either swap in something bigger, or put a turbo or better blower on. I'm not exactly wealthy, but I'm not afraid to spend the money if I plan it out and do it right the first time. I'd rather not make expensive mistakes. I also believe in taking my time and accumulating the parts required and not rushing.

[Denlasoul]

What are you starting with?

[horgantrevor]

What are you starting with?

yes what have you

[Pagz]

Guys - its got a stock blower,there is only one;)

Best bang for buck would be save your pennies and buy a C43,there really not expensive and you can find yourself a cheap 5.4 to drop in it later. Sure turbo is an option but its a lot of work and there will be wasted money no matter how organized or slowly you do it. There is a reason why very little exists performance wise for the 202 :)

[JRE320]

Guys - its got a stock blower,there is only one;)

Best bang for buck would be save your pennies and buy a C43,there really not expensive and you can find yourself a cheap 5.4 to drop in it later. Sure turbo is an option but its alot of work and there will be wasted money no matter how organized or slowly you do it. There is a reason there is a very limited amount of performance upgrades for the 202 :)

You can say that again. I totally agree with you. Don't waste your money and just get a C43.

[horgantrevor]

You can say that again. I totally agree with you. Don't waste your money and just get a C43.


best answer by far

[zmatt]

Sorry, I filled out that I had a c230k in the registration. I thought it would stick that in the sidebar. It didn't. C43's are nice, but V8's a are heavy and I like the balance of the 4cyl in the chassis. I also like boost.

Lets assume that I'm sticking with the C230k for personal preference reasons. What would be in your opinion, the best route?

[Pagz]

Yes the c43 does feel a tad heavier than the smaller displacments,but your not exactly playing with a nimble supercar chassis.

If you must keep the M111 and want equal or better performance than a c43, you have only one choice - go all out on either a turbo or better supercharger and spend 1 -2 years getting it working.

[zmatt]

Any particular reason it would take 1 -2 years other than funding reasons? If I had the money right now I reckon I could get the first stage of it going in about a month's time assuming there were no hiccups with getting the parts. Id imagine the tune and choosing the standalone would take awhile since very few have done this, but getting the hardware together shouldn't be too hard.
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/Mercedesbenzmanifolds.html

As long as I ran it on low boost the stock ecu would probably comply for the time being until i could get aem/haltech/motec/megasquirt etc going. The biggest challenge I see isn't fabing the turbo kit, I know a really good fabricator who loves this kind fo thing. It's the tune. The best tuning shop in my area does Nissans almost exclusively.

Now if you meant 1-2 years before it was "done". Then yeah probably. But things like this are ongoing. No reason you cant drive it during all of this.

[horgantrevor]

upgrade ecu remap for a little more power then change blower for more

run the car on a higher octane petrol like we have as standard in europe 98 octane not i think 95 or 96 octane in america

more power needs more air , fuel , better bang for buck

[zmatt]

Can I really get 300hp with intake exhaust and pulley? The M45 is kinda puny and the asp pulley does 8.5 psi. Not much. Also the best i can get form the pump here is 93 octane, although we don't use RON in America, it's an average of RON and another standard so the numbers work out to be lower but 93 octane in the US works out to be about 98 in Europe. For comparison we call E85 96 octane that's about 110 for you guys.


Anyways, back on topic. I was under the impression 300hp is out of what I can expect with the M45 s/c. I figured I would either have to upgrade the s/c or go turbo.

[Pagz]

If time isnt a problem just go for it:)

Mine didnt run smooth on stock ECU @ 5.5psi,it missed or knocked at some parts of part throttle closed loop but ran ok at WOT which was possibly just due to open loop , adding exhaust backpressure and cooler air needs more tuning than you would first think,especially with all the overlap.

Is it a M45 or 62 on the M111?...I have no proof but i'd put money on super hot air and short SC life if you tried 300 out of it. If you want to stick with SC,which is more suited to that engine,i'd go with an efficient screw type rated for the flow you need,could be a trick to fit though.

[zmatt]

Thanks for the input. I will definitely need to do a standalone from the get go. It is an M45, not exactly a big s/c by any standards. Going off of 23K's results (I wouldn't go as far) I think a turbo will work with the engine just fine. he has crazy numbers and a great torque curve. I've been looking around ebay today and it looks like M111s and M104s can be had for really cheap. So I think I can make this easier on myself by buying a second engine and having it built for turbo and still drive my car. then when I am ready i can have it installed over one weekend. The local engine building shop has a crank dyno so assuming i can find someone willing to tune it I should be able to get it going no problem. Naturally, the second engine would be rebuilt before I did anything to it. Dealing with the driveline, am I right in assuming the 5gtronic can hold up no problem? I was under the impression these trannies were bullet proof, but it seems we have a thread for people with transmission failures.

[Pagz]

Pagz = 23K,when club202 died I had a name change on most other forums so have chaged it here also!.
Buying another engine,building and tuning prior to installation sounds ideal,you might want to build the external bits on your original one for fitment though.
If you do go with the turbo setup spend some time on the Cam setup before tuning,degree the cams and speak with cam tuners for there opinion,you might/will want to remove some of the overlap.

[zmatt]

Pagz = 23K,when club202 died I had a name change on most other forums so have chaged it here also!.
Buying another engine,building and tuning prior to installation sounds ideal,you might want to build the external bits on your original one for fitment though.
If you do go with the turbo setup spend some time on the Cam setup before tuning,degree the cams and speak with cam tuners for there opinion,you might/will want to remove some of the overlap.

Thanks for the advice. I had assumed since it's boosted stock that the m111 wouldn't have overlap. There is a pretty good engine shop in town. They mainly do American V8s, but they have done just about everything and do great work. I'll be working with them when the time comes to setup the transplant motor. I saw you have oversized pistons in your motor. Whats the reasoning behind this? I was always told that you want to lower the compression on a boosted engine, not raise it. Also, I know you run motec, I don't think I need such a powerful system for mine, it's not a race car or anything, any recommendations?

[Pagz]

Np!,My M111 for instance uses a form or internal exhaust recirulation,that is - it
spits some exhaust back up the intake on each cycle using overlap.
Now i dont know for sure...but the M111's that have external exhaust recirculation
where the exhaust is extracted above the exhaust manifold via small channels in the
head to exhaust ports,through a valve and routed around to the intake are IMO likely to use a smaller cam
overlap. A visit to a specialist cam company would be a good move!.

A SC'd engine acts very much like a N/A engine....the reason turbo systems run low
overlap is to avoid exhaust backpressure re-entering the camber!.

I think the M111K has a 8.8:1 comp so its already suitable for boost!...the reason i have oversized pistons is because i have rebuilt it 3 times,larger OE pistons dont raise compression as they have a deaper pocket to compensate - I wont go over the whole story but the factory malhe pistons and rods are fine for at least 380hp so leave the bottom end,focus everything on how well you get the fuel/air in!...I suggest running stock split spray injectors with secondaries for best atmoisation in the lower rpm band,but if you dont at least buy an ecu capable of driving 8 injectors incase you change later. I ran motec because it has excellent support,was capable of running drive by wire and had plenty of tuning options for later,though this was years ago now,i see quite a few other aftermarket ecu's have similar features so there are definilty cheaper options just do the reasearch on what you need and what is on offer.
The features you might want would be closed loop o2 for cruise,Boost control,DBW or idle control if you go with a normal TB,controllable inputs for aircon etc,controllable outputs for cam switching...because the M111 uses simple on/off solinoid you might have to use two outputs to give enough control so that the switching is load/rpm/fuel map - advance/retard based on cam position,motec offer cam control as an upgrade enable option but its really only nessasary on bmw vanos type cam control. an option would be to do away with the cam control and run an exhaust sprocket on the intake(one from older M104/m111's)...slot it for adjustment...that would do away with the complexity that really doesnt provide that much gains just a pain when tuning.

You will have to retain the stock ECU for security and rpm on dash(run crank pickup in series with stock and aftermarket ecu,but make sure aftermarket ECU can bias the voltage to above 2V otherwise it will not start the car),the security doesnt let the car start if you remove to much from the stock ecu,so lengthen cables and mount the stock in the footwell and only remove the engine wiring from it.

[zmatt]

Np!,My M111 for instance uses a form or internal exhaust recirulation,that is - it
spits some exhaust back up the intake on each cycle using overlap.
Now i dont know for sure...but the M111's that have external exhaust recirculation
where the exhaust is extracted above the exhaust manifold via small channels in the
head to exhaust ports,through a valve and routed around to the intake are IMO likely to use a smaller cam
overlap. A visit to a specialist cam company would be a good move!.

Ah, so that's what that weird thing attached to the side of my airbox is.



A SC'd engine acts very much like a N/A engine....the reason turbo systems run low
overlap is to avoid exhaust backpressure re-entering the camber!.

Yup.



I think the M111K has a 8.8:1 comp so its already suitable for boost!...the reason i have oversized pistons is because i have rebuilt it 3 times,larger OE pistons dont raise compression as they have a deaper pocket to compensate - I wont go over the whole story but the factory malhe pistons and rods are fine for at least 380hp so leave the bottom end,focus everything on how well you get the fuel/air in!...I suggest running stock split spray injectors with secondaries for best atmoisation in the lower rpm band,but if you dont at least buy an ecu capable of driving 8 injectors incase you change later. I ran motec because it has excellent support,was capable of running drive by wire and had plenty of tuning options for later,though this was years ago now,i see quite a few other aftermarket ecu's have similar features so there are definilty cheaper options just do the reasearch on what you need and what is on offer.

So you are running two different sets of injectors, one for low rpm and another for high rpm. Interesting.



The features you might want would be closed loop o2 for cruise,Boost control,DBW or idle control if you go with a normal TB,controllable inputs for aircon etc,controllable outputs for cam switching...because the M111 uses simple on/off solinoid you might have to use two outputs to give enough control so that the switching is load/rpm/fuel map - advance/retard based on cam position,motec offer cam control as an upgrade enable option but its really only nessasary on bmw vanos type cam control. an option would be to do away with the cam control and run an exhaust sprocket on the intake(one from older M104/m111's)...slot it for adjustment...that would do away with the complexity that really doesnt provide that much gains just a pain when tuning.

I don't think I need itbs, probably just one tb on a manifold similar to yours. If I am keeping the stock ecu can't i just continue to run the HVAC controls through it, or is that going to be too confusing? Sounds like (this makes me shudder) VTECH. I agree, sounds like it's kind of pointless.



You will have to retain the stock ECU for security and rpm on dash(run crank pickup in series with stock and aftermarket ecu,but make sure aftermarket ECU can bias the voltage to above 2V otherwise it will not start the car),the security doesnt let the car start if you remove to much from the stock ecu,so lengthen cables and mount the stock in the footwell and only remove the engine wiring from it.

Thats kind of absurd, but it's a benz, par for the course I guess. At least I don't have to deal with L-jetronic like my buddy with the old SL.

[Pagz]

The valve attached to the side of your air box is the bypass valve for the SC system,this stays open and circulates SC charge until boost is needed then closes when you need power,opens to vent pressure just like a BOV. Your SC clutch engages on loading and vehicle speed greater than about 5kph from memory.

No im not running two sets of injectors,I ran low impedance split spray Evo 7 injectors but i wish i had ran two stage for better low end tuning. this setup is load based,not rpm,you can still run stock injectors through the whole rpm range at part throttle/part boost conditions.

No you definilty dont need ITB's,But you will want drive by wire or a normal TB with Idle control. When you select AC you need the DBW or idle control to use compensation tables,this will need to be done with the new ECU.

Honda engines are awsome:D Pitty most of them sound bad...you can displace the exhaust and intake notes with the right mods and make them sound ok-ish though;)
The M111 cam control does provide some power gains,but i think things get all out of alighn when you poor loads of air and fuel in there,especially if you change the intake plenum and add loads of exhaust backpressure with turbo..Its possibley more effective to install two adjustable cams and tune them while on the dyno.

The OE bosch ECU runs a 2v bias on the crank pickup,i think this is for noise purposes,as long as you can set your standalone to read above 2v you will be fine. you dont need to parallel the cam pickup,its only needed to time the engine sync.

You could run a piggyback system,however i cant help you much with that. Might pay to speak with your local dyno tuners to get there idea's(go to at least two).

[zmatt]

My first car was a honda, but I grew out of it fast. I like torque.

Luckily tonight is the weekly local car meet so hopefully I can get to talk with some of the tuners and see what they can do. i know the big shop in town wont touch it because it's german. When I bought the car I asked them what they could do and their response was "....ummm have you tried evosport? Your car is untuneable." I take that as laziness.



The valve attached to the side of your air box is the bypass valve for the SC system,this stays open and circulates SC charge until boost is needed then closes when you need power,opens to vent pressure just like a BOV. Your SC clutch engages on loading and vehicle speed greater than about 5kph from memory.

Ok, that was my first guess. If I were to do an air intake mod for my engine now, could I just replace it with a small BOV?


No im not running two sets of injectors,I ran low impedance split spray Evo 7 injectors but i wish i had ran two stage for better low end tuning. this setup is load based,not rpm,you can still run stock injectors through the whole rpm range at part throttle/part boost conditions.

Oh, dual mode, sorry when you said secondary I thought you meant a secondary set of injectors.



No you definilty dont need ITB's,But you will want drive by wire or a normal TB with Idle control. When you select AC you need the DBW or idle control to use compensation tables,this will need to be done with the new ECU.

Isn't the stock TB DBW? Or is it too puny for my purposes?



Honda engines are awsome Pitty most of them sound bad...you can displace the exhaust and intake notes with the right mods and make them sound ok-ish though
The M111 cam control does provide some power gains,but i think things get all out of alighn when you poor loads of air and fuel in there,especially if you change the intake plenum and add loads of exhaust backpressure with turbo..Its possibley more effective to install two adjustable cams and tune them while on the dyno.

Few 4 bangers truly sound "good", just not enough pulses. I think I will go old school and toss out the variable cam altogether. I knwo a guy with a bunch of 190e's, should be easy to get what i need.


The OE bosch ECU runs a 2v bias on the crank pickup,i think this is for noise purposes,as long as you can set your standalone to read above 2v you will be fine. you dont need to parallel the cam pickup,its only needed to time ignition.

So all the stock ecu needs is power and the 2v line from the crank sensor and its set.



You could run a piggyback system,however i cant help you much with that. Might pay to speak with your local dyno tuners to get there idea's(go to at least two).

I've already looked at AEM, and they seem to have ecu's tailor made for models, and no benz support. This Haltech (http://www.haltech.com.au/index.php/product/platinum-sport-series/the-platinum-sport-1000) unit looks promising. They also happen to have their HQ here as well. I knew they had an office in town, but I just checked and their US HQ is 10 minutes from here.

[horgantrevor]

ever engine can be tuned its an engine

makers make the engine last they almost d-tune them to make sure they dont brake

more air better spark more bang

[zmatt]

ever engine can be tuned its an engine

makers make the engine last they almost d-tune them to make sure they dont brake

more air better spark more bang


lol yes, by untunable they meant nobody makes shit for them. Whereas there is a mountain of parts for an evo, and a google search will find multiple ones with 800+ horsepower. Such parts don't exist for a benz, even though the m111 probably has every bit as much potential. All parts must be custom made and you dont even have a basemap to go off of.

[gakz]

You need to read up on a M111 build on 190rev.net, turbo M111.. intake manifold is untouched, uses just the same ol' 4 injectors in the stock spots. You don't need to do anything to the engine itself and you can expect to hit over 350hp/350tq. Make open the engine to rebuild it with all OEM parts... if that. Cam work doesn't need to happen, just a proper tune.

[zmatt]

You need to read up on a M111 build on 190rev.net, turbo M111.. intake manifold is untouched, uses just the same ol' 4 injectors in the stock spots. You don't need to do anything to the engine itself and you can expect to hit over 350hp/350tq. Make open the engine to rebuild it with all OEM parts... if that. Cam work doesn't need to happen, just a proper tune.

search is disabled for non-members. mind linking me?

[zmatt]

Well I just got back form the local tuning shop and I am happy to announce that they said tuning the M111 with a haltech ecu will be no problem at all. I will have to use a flying loom because no plug and play harnesses are made (duh), but they said it was no problem, and apparently the crank sensor and tech issues aren't just mercedes problems. They say the newer Nissan Z's (which they had 4 of in the shop when I was there) have the same thing and most OBDII cars are like that. I don't know what the time line will be with this but I will be using the Haltech platinum sport 1000. When I get the ball rolling I will have a detailed thread. In the immediate future you can expect to see a thread with my new exhaust either this weekend or sometime next week.

[Pagz]

Sounds good!,You will need to leave everything bar the engine wiring harness pins in the original ECU..ie the CAN bus,positive/negative etc etc,it needs to send info to dash and security.

You cannot replace the SC bypass with a BOV,because the bypass needs to vent a lot of air at low engine loads and draws air when the SC is disengaged,If you want a similar BOV noise,just vent the bypass to atmosphere and place a filter on it.

I did mean secondary set of injectors,but as gakz said there is someone running large injectors in stock location with no problems. Gakz - can you supply a link for this build,im registered and could not find it last time you mentioned this,if you have a dyno plot it would be interesting to see how the bottom end looks!.

Cam advance shouldnt be a problem as long as you advance/retard ignition/fuel (cant remember if it was fuel or ignition or both we advanced) to suit cam position,we tried it on load/rpm maps only which works but is not factory smooth,the switch points took time to tune smooth as oil temperature,rpm etc effect actuation speed,so you can end up advancing timing well before its advanced...you also want some hysteresis in there to avoid switching in and out while sitting on the switch points.

[gakz]

190rev.net link (http://190rev.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29938&highlight=m111). Owner and builder is w201-16. It is in a DTM race car, engine is out of a 99 SLK230k.

I have a large amount of email correspondence with him, his english isn't the best but it is manageable. He doesn't respond often, but if you'd like I can go through some emails and post up some more details of the build

[gakz]

Your Haltech will need to control/intercept all Engine interaction because even something like unplugging the butterfly bypass valve causes the engine to go into limp mode



here is another thread on someone building an M111 engine, here (http://190rev.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38933&highlight=m111&page=3)

[gakz]

Hello!
My engine is stock.
I have only put on a turbo and mounted a ECU from DTA(S60pro).
If you use a bigger turbo you will get more power.
With a bigger pulley you got about 215-230hp.
I have a another 190E with a stock 230K engine. I'm thinking of a bigger pulley on that,but I have't find any, except kleemann. And I think that cost to much.
What info do you miss???



I know that some use an another ecu on the engine and make that work with the rest of the car.
I don't see the problem to do this. De only problem i see is to make the taco work.
I have the 16v DTM gearbox on my engine in the evo. The 6speed is on my next car. If you have the gearbox without wire it will be alot to fit.
I think youre box wil work. If the gearbox use ATF oil you shuld use a another oil. I use omega 690 on my car. The weakest point on youre drivline is the twomass flywheel.
I have customize a singelmass flywheel from a M102 engine. On my 190E with 230K engine and 6speed box will i try to use the twomass flywheel. I hope for 230-250hp in that one.
To connect the another ECO is easy.I dont know the size on the std. fuel nozzle, but i have 660ccm in the evo.
I dont know how much power the std ecu can handle. The org MAP-sensor and ECU may handle 230-250hp. But i'm not sure.



my 6speed box have one wire and one shifting rod in metal.
w201,w202 +++ have 4 shifting rod in metal.
On my evo I have singelmass flywheel and a "DTM" getrag box. I have 350hp and 525nm at the wheels(about 400hp and 575nm in the engine).
That engine have a 19T turbo, DTA s60Pro ecu and 660ccm injectors.
All Sensors like MAP,TPS +++ use 5v from ECU



You can use oem sensors and injectors. But there is not many sensors on that engine.
You can use wathertemp sensor(i have chage on one engine,but use the org on my evo), trigger, injectors and lambdasonde.
I don't know much about the std. map-sensor, but I think you need to change this & airtemp.sensor and TPS. Maybe you can use the std.TPS, but I change mine.
Your engine have triggerwheel(60-2) on the flywheel.
Crankshaftsensor is triggersensor.
You can use camsensor, but you don't need it. You can control the vanos with the new EFI.



Airtempsensor mey be in the airmass sensor.
TPS is to Throttle.
Lambdasond is oxygensensensor. Is in the exhaustpipe in front of the kat.
Vanos is adjustable timing on the camshaft(inlet).



In my evo I use turbo, not kompressor.
I use chrankshaft pulley from a engine without kompressor so I have less weight om moving parts.

Regards to making another turbo manifold:

you can look at ebay and find some parts to a nissan+++ and make that to fit youre engine.
I don't want to make a new one. It was a lot of work. I did use over 1000euro only in parts.


know the last m111 is different.
I have one 99 and one 01 engine



I give all respect where it is due to Mr Tor Anton. He did the work on the build, here is the info from emails (more detailed than his member thread). Although it doesn't tell us everything, it is more than enough to get this build done.... It is truly a shame that more people haven't built this engine


If you read some of it you'll catch he has 2 M111 engines that he has slightly modified. The 350whp one is in the DTM car, and he has another 200-ish hp in a 190E

[zmatt]

Sounds good!,You will need to leave everything bar the engine wiring harness pins in the original ECU..ie the CAN bus,positive/negative etc etc,it needs to send info to dash and security.

You cannot replace the SC bypass with a BOV,because the bypass needs to vent a lot of air at low engine loads and draws air when the SC is disengaged,If you want a similar BOV noise,just vent the bypass to atmosphere and place a filter on it.

I did mean secondary set of injectors,but as gakz said there is someone running large injectors in stock location with no problems. Gakz - can you supply a link for this build,im registered and could not find it last time you mentioned this,if you have a dyno plot it would be interesting to see how the bottom end looks!.

Cam advance shouldnt be a problem as long as you advance/retard ignition/fuel (cant remember if it was fuel or ignition or both we advanced) to suit cam position,we tried it on load/rpm maps only which works but is not factory smooth,the switch points took time to tune smooth as oil temperature,rpm etc effect actuation speed,so you can end up advancing timing well before its advanced...you also want some hysteresis in there to avoid switching in and out while sitting on the switch points.

I don't see why I would still need the bypass valve once the supercharger has been removed. And wouldn't a bov be necessary for a 300hp+ turbo build? I don't want any surge. I don't plan to twincharge this thing so isn't recirculation unnecessary?


@Gakz, wow thanks for all the data, it's really late over here, so i don't have the time/energy to read over it all. I will in the morning and rely it to my tuner. The more info the better.

I totally agree, I wish more people were tuning these engines. it's kind of a shame that far inferior cars get it much easier in the way of aftermarket than w202's. Hopefully we can help change that.




EDIT: Also is my transmission going to hold up? I've read and been told the 5Gtronic might as well be made of adamantium, but it seems several members have had them fail. Should I look into a manual swap? I'm in the USA, so I don't know how easy it will be to source a manual transmission, they just don't sell them here.

[Pagz]

Gakz,I didnt realise that was a race car...its functionality and tuning characteristics are completely different to a road car in alot of ways...im not sure where to start.

Sorry,when you asked if you could replace the bypass with a BOV i assumed you were to continue with the SC system. If you go turbo than yes you will need a BOV ,the VDO Bypass becomes obsolete. Match your turbo properly and you should have very little/no surge.

Are you planning to go stand alone with teh haltech?...(I wonder if you will only be able to go piggyback with the auto trans??)

If you go stand alone:
Along with paralelling your trigger,You will want to keep the stock water temp sensor wired to the bosch ecu,so you still get temp up on the dash.

Contrary to above,Your tuners will likely recommend you use your original Cam pickup for SYNC and crank pickup for trigger,it will work best for you.

Drive by wire has benifits especially idle control and aircon loading so discuss that with your tuners,if your tuners can utilise your original one or one from a larger engine if you change the intake plenum at some stage,that way you can also use your original potentio meter on your accelerator cable.

[zmatt]

No way, I'm going turbo. There just isn't enough potential in the supercharger. Yes the haltech is standalone, naturally i am keeping the stock ecu for tach and security reasons. Hal, my tuner, explained to me that this isn't a benz thing, a lot of newer cars are this way so he expected it.

[Pagz]

Excellent!,Did they mention anything about the trans control unit and how or even if you will need interface if you go stand alone?(would be intersting to know as i have only seen one m111 auto with turbo and it was piggyback)

[zmatt]

Excellent!,Did they mention anything about the trans control unit and how or even if you will need interface if you go stand alone?(would be intersting to know as i have only seen one m111 auto with turbo and it was piggyback)

he said he would research the wiring to see what we would need to do, but I definitely will be using a flying loom, which is an uncut loom of wires so i can custom fit it. I knwo that the 5G is computer controlled and it is a "lerning" type, but is it the ecu that does it or does it have it's own computer?

[Pagz]

Im not sure which does the learning,it could be a bit of both!,there will be a heap of infomation sent between the TCU and ECU for cruise control,gear selection and changing etc so it will intersting to see how they get around that!. I would imagine either way they will have to make it so the bosch ECU still thinks and recieves information as if it was still in control.

[gakz]

In regards to what pagz said, tricking the OEM ecu into thinking it still receives the signal... There are piggybacks that do that, I know one called greddy ultimate or something similar

[zmatt]

Im not sure which does the learning,it could be a bit of both!,there will be a heap of infomation sent between the TCU and ECU for cruise control,gear selection and changing etc so it will intersting to see how they get around that!. I would imagine either way they will have to make it so the bosch ECU still thinks and recieves information as if it was still in control.

Something tells me the stock ecu will have to interface somehow to keep it all together.


@Gakz, a piggback modifies and expands a stock ecu, while a standalone handles the functions itself. Some of these newer cars (our cars, Nissans and I'm sure many more) have systems that don't play nice with a 100% switch over to a standalone ecu. This may be intentional or not, but in order for the freaking car to start and some other things to work. Anyways, looks like I will be switching out many sensors and making a change to the engine that merely hacking the ecu with a piggyback isn't enough for. Besides the resolution the haltechs have for tuning it quite high so I will manage a better tune than with a piggyback.

[gakz]

You don't need to swap out a lot of sensors... Air/Maf sensor and a few others is all that is needed. Not all piggy backs are the same. Like I said, if you do not do a complete ECU swap you will need one, like the one i mentioned ( a piggyback style), that takes the signal and sends a signal with stock parameters back to the ECU... while the actual stuff like injectors get a different signal.

[zmatt]

You don't need to swap out a lot of sensors... Air/Maf sensor and a few others is all that is needed.

Sorry I consider that a lot.



ot all piggy backs are the same. Like I said, if you do not do a complete ECU swap you will need one, like the one i mentioned ( a piggyback style), that takes the signal and sends a signal with stock parameters back to the ECU... while the actual stuff like injectors get a different signal.


Well I wont sit here and rpetend to know every system in the world so fair enough.

[zmatt]

Just a thought, do you think it would be worthwhile to switch to a manual gearbox? How easy would it be to get one in the USA? and how easy is the swap?

[Pagz]

Switching to manual would save on any TCU problems....but its out of the frying pan into the flames =)

The haltech might have some digital outputs which could be configured to pass engine info onto the original TCU or ECU depending on how they comunitcate(hopefully not via CAN between ECU and TCU so if it is than you will have to do it through ECU)...

Im not sure if yours will be the same being auto/TCU but i found you can remove the entire engine loom - Cam sync,sc clutch,sc bypass,02,ignition,injectors,knock,mas,trigger from the original bosch ecu and while it has all the alarm codes when checked with a scanner,it does not bring up any dash lights and does allow the starter motor and fuel pump to engage and start the motor once you have the standalone ready(security has control over pump and starter)...but if you remove pretty much any remaining wires from the bosch ecu its all dead including the dash!;).

In terms of sensors its straight forward,If you retain the DBW(has TPS in it) you will only need MAP,Air temp and possibly water temp(if you cannot utilise the stock temp,there is room to install another beside the if you have to)

Are you really sure you dont want to sell and buy the 43? =)

[zmatt]

Switching to manual would save on any TCU problems....but its out of the frying pan into the flames =)

Right, then I'll stick with the auto, it's been good to me so far anyways.


The haltech might have some digital outputs which could be configured to pass engine info onto the original TCU or ECU depending on how they comunitcate(hopefully not via CAN between ECU and TCU so if it is than you will have to do it through ECU)...

nice idea, i'll have to see what the tuner says.



Im not sure if yours will be the same being auto/TCU but i found you can remove the entire engine loom - Cam sync,sc clutch,sc bypass,02,ignition,injectors,knock,mas,trigger from the original bosch ecu and while it has all the alarm codes when checked with a scanner,it does not bring up any dash lights and does allow the starter motor and fuel pump to engage and start the motor once you have the standalone ready(security has control over pump and starter)...but if you remove pretty much any remaining wires from the bosch ecu its all dead including the dash!;).

That's what I'm thinking. Keeping the bosch ecu to talk with security and possibly the tcu (still need to figure that out) and leaving the engine in the capable hands of the haltech.



Are you really sure you dont want to sell and buy the 43? =)

lol, wheres the fun in that? This is how I see it. this car will in the end be cheaper (insurance on AMGs for a 20 something is a bitch and interestingly they don't seem to care if your car has been boosted :V), lighter, more nimble, more tunable, and faster than a c43, or a C55 at that. I can have two different engine maps saved, one for power and one for econ, determined by AF mix and boost so i can get the econ of the NA 2.3 and I can get all my boost goodness in one car. Also since I will be replacing the plastic piping and some of the electronics with better ones this car may very well be more reliable than stock. granted, if I thrash it it wont be, but in my experience the weak point of these cars drivetrain wise have always been the cheap electronics. I plan on basically putting in a new motor with better electronics. The end result should be better in every way.

[gakz]

pagz, you sayin you removed all those sensors from the oem ecu and controlled them by a different unit and just kept the security/starter/pump (fuel pump?)

[zmatt]

pagz, you sayin you removed all those sensors from the oem ecu and controlled them by a different unit and just kept the security/starter/pump (fuel pump?)

From what I have been told this is exactly what you have to do with most modern cars. I explained to my tuner that you had to keep the oem ecu so you could start the car with security and he said yeah they have to do that for just about everything. He said he would relocate the stock ecu to the floorboards out of the way. I think the only way you can truly go standalone is to rpelace everything that interacts with the security system, this means a new fuel pump and starter, ones that can be controlled by the standalone and a new gauge system, for the sake of ease, probably one of the LCD haltech units. Badass as they are, this conversion would leave me without the fuel system lockout, central locking and likely the car alarm. The LCD display also looks ricey on a street car.

http://www.jayracing.com/images/products/36002%20Racepak%20IQ3%20Display%20Dash.jpg

[gakz]

you can likely re-do that stuff... the central locking (for example) on my SLK is all pneumatic, the pump/switches would just need to get power

[Pagz]

pagz, you sayin you removed all those sensors from the oem ecu and controlled them by a different unit and just kept the security/starter/pump (fuel pump?)

Correct!...though if i recall ,we wired it so my security and stand alone had control of the fuel pump relay(they were in series).

zmatt - your right! ...Definitly keep as much of the stock system as possible there is absolutly no reason to bypass or modify a perfectly working security,ignition or locking system for a stand alone setup =)


lol, wheres the fun in that? This is how I see it. this car will in the end be cheaper (insurance on AMGs for a 20 something is a bitch and interestingly they don't seem to care if your car has been boosted :V), lighter, more nimble, more tunable, and faster than a c43, or a C55 at that. I can have two different engine maps saved, one for power and one for econ, determined by AF mix and boost so i can get the econ of the NA 2.3 and I can get all my boost goodness in one car. Also since I will be replacing the plastic piping and some of the electronics with better ones this car may very well be more reliable than stock. granted, if I thrash it it wont be, but in my experience the weak point of these cars drivetrain wise have always been the cheap electronics. I plan on basically putting in a new motor with better electronics. The end result should be better in every way.

Wish i still had that motivation! ;)

I tested a 208 clk55 today,it hauled^^ ,bit of a tank in the corners...

[zmatt]

Correct!...though if i recall ,we wired it so my security and stand alone had control of the fuel pump relay(they were in series).

zmatt - your right! ...Definitly keep as much of the stock system as possible there is absolutly no reason to bypass or modify a perfectly working security,ignition or locking system for a stand alone setup =)

In America we have a saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it. A good mantra, but i think some of my countrymen took it too much to heart, that's why the trans am was built on the same platform for 40 years......




Wish i still had that motivation! ;)

I tested a 208 clk55 today,it hauled^^ ,bit of a tank in the corners...

If it's any consolation seeing your car domain page inspired me to do the same. I hate being told something can't be done and I love working on shit (my other car is a fiat so yeah). I'm a poster on MBworld and the 202 owners didn't have much advice in the way of performance. They were either content with stock or said get a C43. That's not good enough for me. Not when I see tools getting cheap ass turbo kits for B series civics. Or when I know a guy who has a 650hp TT 350Z. Why can't I have some fun too? Ain't no love for Deustchland?

The 55 is a great engine, but V8s are nose heavy. Kinda ruins the dynamics in these cars imo. I like the balance of the 230 and I have had some nice slides before.

[zmatt]

Just getting more info together....Pagz, I've been reading your car domain more. About engine work aside from rebuilding like new is it worthwhile to do any engine work? I saw you had some headaches with JE pistons and also had a port and polish. There were also some oil lines run through the valve cover. Could you elaborate on this? I have been told over and over the m111s are built like tanks and can take a lot with stock internals. Do you agree? Also, to make turboing easier, I'm thinking getting the redline higher than 5800 is also smart. Aside from cams what does the engine need?

[Pagz]

Thanks!, Yes lots of headachs =)
The only oil line that came close to the valve cover was the turbo oil feed,which came up from the block,through oil temp/pressure sensors mounted on the front of the head and across to the turbo. later i redesigned this so that it went straight to the turbo,then repositioned the sensors on my oil cooler/thermostat.
The bottom end does not need any work,i would investigate cam timing for turbo setups and change as nessassary,dont bother porting it unless you end up having to remove the head for some other reason. we didnt seem to have any trouble raising the RPM to 6300,but if you go higher be careful of float,im not sure how well the hydrolic lifters handle this either.

[zmatt]

Thanks!, Yes lots of headachs =)
The only oil line that came close to the valve cover was the turbo oil feed,which came up from the block,through oil temp/pressure sensors mounted on the front of the head and across to the turbo. later i redesigned this so that it went straight to the turbo,then repositioned the sensors on my oil cooler/thermostat.
The bottom end does not need any work,i would investigate cam timing for turbo setups and change as nessassary,dont bother porting it unless you end up having to remove the head for some other reason. we didnt seem to have any trouble raising the RPM to 6300,but if you go higher be careful of float,im not sure how well the hydrolic lifters handle this either.

The current plans are to buy a 2nd engine and rebuild it as new so I have a clean slate to work with so I will be opening it up anyways. I have 146k miles on this motor. I'd rather not push my luck. I may have them double check the transmission too. I thought these things were impossible to kill, but some of the posts here have scared me regarding the 5G. Regarding rpm, the shop that will do the tuning will also do the engine rebuild so I will talk to them about that. Maybe it needs a hotter cam who knows. The previous MB I4 did something like 7k on the cossie, and while this is boosted, 7k would still be nice simply to broaden the choices of turbo. Tomorrow i start my new job which pays a bit more than the last one. So after a few paychecks i can get the ball rolling and more from research to real work. Thanks for the help. It's great to have someone who has done this to consult.

[zmatt]

Talked to my tuner today. he was in contact with haltech and they basically reinforced what he already said. The m111 is no problem, we will have to have a flying loom harness because there is no plug and play but that's not a big deal. I'm going to have a baseline dyno done two weeks from now. It will be interesting to see how many horses she has lost. Also, I'm thinking about $5k USD to get the turbo going and in the car not including other mods such as suspension etc. Does this seem realistic?

[Pagz]

If the second hand engine has good compression I would leave it in the state you purchase it,opening it up is wasted money,If by some reason you damage it while tuning then rebuild.=) Like most transmissions,if nobody changes the oil/filter they fail,fix it only if it fails and dont worry about it until then.
I know very little about the coswoth engine,but im pretty sure they ran solid lifters and different valve spring type,you cant directly compare this to the M111 head with hydrolic lifters,the wiegh more for a start.
Cam design is really speciallised,engine builders normally dont have the software or equipment to sort these issues,locally we have companies like this: http://http://www.kelford.co.nz/ If you can,try get away with using stock cams but remove some of the overlap buy adjusting timing,it may depend on how much piston-valve clearance you have,if you cant get away with it this way you may have to adjust duration etc which is custom cam design.

The best thing you could do would be to speak with someone who has turbocharged a non-turbo engine many times(not an ECU tuner),have the M111 engine degree'd and descuss what possible changes you might want to make before you start the project.

5k is not alot for a completely custom turbo project,but im sure there is a long line of people who will tell you it can be done for next to nothing!.=)

[Pagz]

Just found this,some of the points sum up what im trying to describe to you:

http://http://www.capella.co.nz/sites/kelford.co.nz/faq/

[zmatt]

Well my tuner also is an engine builder, he does both. It's sounding like messing with the cams is more trouble than it's worth. If there were cams already made that i could drop in like some engines then great, but again like everything else with these engines it's 100% custom.

Any opinion on this manifold?
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/Mercedesbenzmanifolds.html

It's the only one you can buy, otherwise I'll just have one made.

[gakz]

there are pre-made cams, they are very hard to get... i have a set, made by schrick


Also, you do not need a custom intake manifold done

[zmatt]

Thats a turbo header.

[Pagz]

Wheres the face palm icon when you need it. I give up^^.

[zmatt]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AHwVOa2_90c/TX3BmN5p4VI/AAAAAAAAAWo/Xfra_9u0hqM/s1600/facepalm7.jpg


lol j/k



I don't think I will be doing a custom intake. It's not necessary. Although I may down the road (I intend to keep the 202 for awhile). I don't think it will be necessary to reach my goal of getting C43 parity. Do you know if a bigger front mount will fit in the stock bumper? or will I have to stick with the stock front mount until I get the Rieger kit down the road?

[gakz]

I can't vouch for the 202 front bumber... but my front bumber can fit a huuuge front mount, minor mods only!

[zmatt]

Well Andrew is a great fabricator, I'll see what he can figure out.

[gakz]

If its anything like the r170 one, I had to remove some plastic airdam type stuff and make a custom bracket

[zmatt]

If it's a case of removing non structural plastic then no big deal.

[Pagz]

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584037_large.jpg Found it!....
At the end of the day Its upto you to decide what to do with the cam setup,though I just cant help but be feel compelled to make you understand the reasons why you should investigate it at the begining - even if you do not change it.

If you want to put it behind the bumper your pretty limited with IC space on the 202 ,unless you cut out metal or remove the a/c fans. you could go with a much thicker IC to compensate for hieght and mount under the impact bar like i have,but you might want to change the front bumper to suit.

[Pagz]

Gaks,
Have you got a dyno plot for the R170?
Your right,you dont need a custom intake plenum,however its difficult to enlargen the opening under the stock DBW should you decide to. I couldnt help but notice the dyno plots on the race car you compare to are alot different to mine,it could be the graph but torque appears to be very peaky,with power and torque dropping off fairly early in the rpm,i wonder if this is a turbo flow issue,or intake system restriction?..i would doubt its any restriction pre-compressor or after turbine.

[gakz]

My dyno was when I had problems that I'm still working on fixing. It is very "bumpy" indicating a fuel issue.. but otherwise it was about 187rwhp/190 somethin rwtq, the dyno was underrated also by 20-30hp from what the guy said.


Its very possible the OEM intake mani will affect the hp/tq curves, as that is how a lot of people will adjust those curves... making longer runners, different size plenum, etc. As far as Cams go, he can try to find a set of the schrick ones, otherwise they are gonna be expensive

[gakz]

From what I was told, this is the new settings on the Cams I have... there is supposedly a second variation with different specs:

Schrick camshafts:
ref.no.: 0285 E1 521-00 (intake)
opening duration:252°
peak angle: 96-116°
lift max.:10,3mm
lift at TDC: 0,3-2,5mm

ref.no.: 0285 A1 521-00 (exhaust)
opening duration: 252°
peak angle: 108°
lift max.: 10,0mm
lift at TDC: 1,1mm

[zmatt]

how hard is it to get these cams?

[gakz]

i waited about 2 years for 1 set to come up for sale.. So it can be tough, you may be able to contact schrick and see if they have any left over

[zmatt]

Since we have the specs of the shrick cams, do you think i could have the stock cams reground to spec?

[Pagz]

Are these shrick cams for the SC setup? http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584037_large.jpg

[Pagz]

Honestly,do yourself a favour - google,research,inquire at cam manufacturers...do everything possible to understand the differences in timing/duration/lift between a turbo cam,NA cam and super charger cam setup,especially one with internal recirculation and large overlap...you will find reversion is your enemey and will effect you in a very negative way...*edit - this is why i no longer have a turbo m111.

[NW_Merc]

Honestly,do yourself a favour - google,research,inquire at cam manufacturers...do everything possible to understand the differences in timing/duration/lift between a turbo cam,NA cam and super charger cam setup,especially one with internal recirculation and large overlap...you will find reversion is your enemey and will effect you in a very negative way...*edit - this is why i no longer have a turbo m111.

What level of boost were you running when you did have the turbo?

[gakz]

Are these shrick cams for the SC setup?

Yup, I am probably not installin these cams on the engine I will turbo.. but on the engine I will have that stays s/c

[Pagz]

What level of boost were you running when you did have the turbo?

Around 15-16psi,so yes the cam timing becomes more important the more pressure you run. On the most recent setup I ran a T3 .82 housing(previously T25 .63 then .82 then T3 .63) with a Garrett 60 series hot side,Running the larger housing with reduced backpressure helped tuning alot and not just in top end,although we didnt realise this at the time dropping the backpressure also had a positive effect on how much usable fuel we had,ie it wasnt being spat back out the intake and pooling in the runners,then being sucked back in only to pool around the rings and end up in the oil...aka bore wash.

I degree'd the M111 when i last removed it,there is a lot of overlap.

[zmatt]

Honestly,do yourself a favour - google,research,inquire at cam manufacturers...do everything possible to understand the differences in timing/duration/lift between a turbo cam,NA cam and super charger cam setup,especially one with internal recirculation and large overlap...you will find reversion is your enemey and will effect you in a very negative way...*edit - this is why i no longer have a turbo m111.

I understand the difference between a turbo cam and an NA cam. Turbo cams have very little overlap and NA cams have a lot. I do not know what an sc cam is like.

[Pagz]

Goodluck with the project.

[zmatt]

Thanks, this is a lot to keep track of especially since nobody makes these parts with a turbo application in mind. I'm thinking for my goals it's best just to leave things like the internals and cams as is like you said and focus on getting a good tune without opening it up. best not to get ahead of myself.

[Pagz]

No no no no no non noonononoNONONO hahahaha........ i want to stick a needle in my eye^^. I have said from the begining of the thead..as nicely as possible at first^^ but i'll be more to the point.... >>> it is near pointless turboing it if your not going to investigate the cam setup,If you dont investigate and it results in bore wash you will forever fill your oil with fuel and slowly but surely kill your engine, it will also create tuning problems. There is a chance that if you have external exhaust recirculation your overlap may be much less and you may not need to change cams but only adjust timing...either way YOU NEED TO DEGREE IT TO FIND OUT,then YOU NEED TO TALK WITH SOMEONE WHO BUILDS CAMS,LIVES ON CAMS,SLEEPS WITH CAMS,EATS CAMS,IS A CAM....hahaha geez iv just lost it these days.

[zmatt]

ugh my bad. I thought that was in reference to your advice if i wanted to change the cams. I thought you just changed the timing? Now I'm confused.

[NW_Merc]

Could you not change the resistor and retard the ignition timing?

[Pagz]

CAM TIMING!! =), Spark plays no part in the problem(aka ignition timing)

Read the thread carfully=)

[zmatt]

CAM TIMING!! =), Spark plays no part in the problem(aka ignition timing)

Read the thread carfully=)

lol. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I must sound like a n00b. You just adjusted your cam timing correct? When I get the second engine I will be sure to investigate my options cam wise.

[gakz]

He adjusted his cam timing but making a custom set-up on the front of the engine/head area

[Pagz]

Haha,its ok!..we all started this game somewhere=)

When we adjusted my setup we only did the exhaust cam,this is because the intake cam is hard to do with the actuator in use,you really need to remove it completely and run a slotted exhaust cam in its place. We adjusted it out of curiosity to see if we could get gains,and we did...10hp throughout the rpm band...not bad,this was obtained by retarding it 5 degrees,however this would mean more overlap,so the gains most likely came from the later opening rather than late closing...very odd...but thats what this is all about.

What really gets me going is that i knew this engine had large overlap at the begining of it all,but i did not understand the implications!...many years ago Ross (slammedC) sent me this genuine MB info for the M111.
Please read them carefully,you will understand they do this for added power,but also EGR!...and while this may work fine with low backpresser and 6psi SC...once you up the pressure ratio with turbo this it all goes out the window.

If i had sorted this issue early i would most likely have kept my turbo setup,i just couldnt go through a full cam design with retune...it would have cost me at least 5-10k buy the time i rebuilt with new rings...and even then what if it went wrong again. arg/

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584038_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584039_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584040_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584041_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584042_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584043_large.jpg

[Pagz]

This is what happens when fuel/exhaust etc pools in the intake.(its not oil)
Remember,thats upstream of the injectors!!!,there is also bits that have been spat into the plenum...it screams REVERSION.

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584044_large.jpg

[gakz]

So from what I understand what you are saying.. You advise basically removing the magnetic cam adjuster completely.. basically re-doing the front end of the camshafts, and make it like most normal cars with 2 adjustable gears on the front?

From what it appears, the adjuster magnet seems to allow for an "better idle" but without damaged "peak power". Which doesn't make sense because the idle on this engine sucks

[Pagz]

Yes thats the easiest way i can see to do it,but you may also be able to KEEP the actuator,slot it and retard the whole mechanism further(to remove some of the overlap when advanced,but remember this could affect idle in a nagative way when retarded),the problem is it would need to be removed to be adjusted(hard)...these are only informed assumptions,you need to speak with cam builders because you need to check piston to valve clearance in all situations.

When the cam actuator is removed its pretty much the same as the exhaust cam(minus the oil feed) Im pretty sure you could use the exhaust sproket i have on the intake.
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2943/3169/7356584045_large.jpg


Now how about that C43^^

[zmatt]

Which doesn't make sense because the idle on this engine sucks

no kidding. i've been meaning to replace my engine mounts the whole car shakes at idle.

[gakz]

So that actuator only moves the intake cam?

So these schrick cams I have.. I posted the specs of them, how do they adjust the cams from stock in order to help performance? Are they causing more overlap? Trying to figure out how these cams, exhaust headers, and the rest of my stuff may work out.. no turbo at all?


It seems like maybe removing the M111 engine, basically modifying it to act like a normal engine, is the best bet and "cheapest" in the long run

[zmatt]

So that actuator only moves the intake cam?

So these schrick cams I have.. I posted the specs of them, how do they adjust the cams from stock in order to help performance? Are they causing more overlap? Trying to figure out how these cams, exhaust headers, and the rest of my stuff may work out.. no turbo at all?


It seems like maybe removing the M111 engine, basically modifying it to act like a normal engine, is the best bet and "cheapest" in the long run

what do you mean by normal?

intake and exhaust mods improve flow. a better intake gets more air in so more boom, specifically a cold air intake gets cold and therefore denser air in for more boom. A ram air intake will have a similar but less drastic effect as boost. My friend has a ram air setup on his truck and it forces air in at 2 psi. A better exhaust removes back pressure so the exhaust gets out of the cylinders quicker and with less fuss. Cams controls when the valves open, how much they open and how long they stay open. this determines things like idle, mid-range and top end power. The kind of cam you have determine where your power is to a large degree. With regular cams the hotter the cam the more top end it has and the worse the low end and the idle. This is why race cams are not recommended for the road. VVT in it's different forms allows you to have the best of both worlds. Depending on how the VVT works you can have just variable timing or you can have variable everything. This lets you have a good idle and a good mid and top end cam all in one. The downside is it is complicated and expensive, and for tuning can be harder to work with. Something like VTEC or the VVT that we have is pretty crude and will only effect the timing and not for a large range. If you have a new car you can have much more control and if you have one of the newer multair fiat the cam is practical 100% variable. The cam is only one part of the equation though. A well tuned engine will have many mods working together. Bang for buck boost is the best way to get power especially in a street car because a high power NA engine will rev very high, have it all on the top end, and will not be very easy to drive in traffic. A good boosted engine will behave like an NA econobox engine when it's out of boost. Boosted cars also get better mpg assuming you aren't in boost all the of time.

[Pagz]

Yep it only moves the intake 10 degrees(20 crank degrees when you talk about timing and overlap)

I would imagine the shrick cams you have will have a slightly different in more than one aspect of lift,duration,timing etc...you would need to seek expect advice for suitablilty for turbo etc.

I wonder if those shrick cams are suited to both types of M111( the external EGR and internal EGR...if you have fuel problems it might be the cams or do you have no ECU tuning after the install?.)

When you say normal are you refering to an engine with no internal EGR?...if so then yes you need to remove some of the overlap to make it more suitable to turbo!

[gakz]

When you say EGR, im guessin you are referring to the oil separator/vent that goes back to the airbox typically from the top of the valve cover?

When I say normal, most other engines ive worked with do not have a magnetic cam adjuster on the front, controlled by the ECU. Maybe all the new engines these days do, but its a pain IMO and not "normal".

I appreciate the concern zmatt in explaining how an engine works and how modifications work, but I know that. Point in my remarks was, how can we say for sure the affect cams have on the engine if, given the specs of the 'race cams' i have and no one knows if that makes the overlap worse.

[zmatt]

EGR = exhaust gas recirculation. It's an emissions thing that generally hurts performance. In carb'ed engines I pull it off because you don't have to worry about pissing off the non existent ECU.

Sorry about going overboard with the explanation i got ahead of myself. I know the difference conceptually from an NA sc and turbo cam but I can't tell which is which by looking at the specs.

As for the cam adjuster, depends on the engine. Everyone has their own way of doing VVT. Honda is hydraulic using oil lines, Fiat is pneumatic etc etc. Because of patents and all everyone has to have their own way.

[Pagz]

On any engine, EGR is to improve emissions by taking exhaust and feeding it back into the intake,this had been pretty standard practice at least since the early late 80's early 90's(mostly on diesels back then then) you will find alot of EGR engines are just like the M111 with internal EGR instead of the external valve and pipwork around to the intake plenum. having infinitly adjustable actuators on both cams would be much more ideal so that volumetric efficiency can be shifted based on RPM/load.


Point in my remarks was, how can we say for sure the affect cams have on the engine if, given the specs of the 'race cams' i have and no one knows if that makes the overlap worse.

You need to degree your engine or have it degree'd...speak with cam designers/builders...follow there recommendations...this is the best thing you could do...so do it =)

[gakz]

What i'm sayin is the EGR you are referring to, the oil/vent on the valve cover? The one that feeds back into the intake box typically. You made it seem that its either internal/external dependent on engine year.

[Pagz]

Please take a picture of where your talking about,if its off the cam cover than no thats not EGR.

Its likely the different EGR systems are country emissions dependant,one is possibly better than the other.

What i do not know for sure is the difference in cam timing between internal and external type...you need to evaluate your own individual system,you may find theres no cam timing diference at all and the external system suppliments the internal..you will find out when you degree it.

This looks like EGR on an SLK.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/attachments/r170-slk-class/119420d1173182264-egr-valve-location-mb-pno-002-140-68-60.jpg

[Pagz]

This is M104 EGR valves above the exhaust manifolds

http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/gg78/pham_doanh/Mercedes/EGR%20vacuum%20line%20replacement/IMG_1610.jpg

[gakz]

I dont have my engine with me but if memory serves I don't have anything like that gold-ish colored piece. That black piece, oil separator, is present but im fairly certain no gold piece that looks like the one shown is present