first post.. what can i do to get more power?

[c280power]

hello..
i just signed up for this forum and i am glad to see so many w202 enthusiast!
anyways my question is.. what can i do or buy to get more power? i have a 1994 c280 with 165xxx miles.. i bought an intake and have taken off the resonator. what is out there that will help out with my acceleration? i mean every time i come out of a corner i drop it to 3 just to boost up the rmps a bit and go faster u know.. but i know thats bad cause eventually ill mess up my tranny.. eventually i do want to buy a turbo, but for the mean time, what can i do? any advice, tips, parts etc will help out.. and ill post up pics in a bit

oh and has anyone bought and installed this performance chip? does it work? is it worth buying?>>>http://www.gfchips.com/mercedesc280.aspx

Thanks again guys!

[zmatt]

The search function is your friend.

[SD202]

short answer. Buy a different car.

[c280power]

ok.. anything else other than buying a different car?? doesnt the c280 have the same engine as the c36? is there anything that i could put on?

[zmatt]

Did you search? If power is what you are looking for then you need to do intake, exhaust, header and chip tune in that order. The dig difference between the C36 and the C280 is in displacement. The C36 uses a crankshaft from a 350SD. If you can find one of those then that will stroke you to the 3.6L of the AMG. You wont have the same cams or pistons though, but that will go a long way. You can also look into turbos. The M104 loves boost, and there used to be kits for it. Not any more, but I have seen custom m104 turbos on other forums and its been documented. Prepare to spend a few grand depending on how much power you want and how ghetto the turbo is. The old mosselmann kit was supposed to make 600hp, but that kind of power takes a lot of cash.



The other option is an engine swap. The C43 amg used an M113, and looking at what the C43 guys have done swap wise it looks like any M113 motor is a drop in for our cars. It will be harder for you though because they can get away with using the stock ecu which can adapt to the larger displacement, you wont. You have a few choices if you want to do that, it came in 4.3 5.0 and 5.5 liter versions. AMG and non AMG and the 5.5 was available with or without a supercharger. To do the swap you would need at a bare minumum the engine, tranny, ecu, mounts, radiator, and probably a lot of odds and ends as well.



Note that if you do either of these without suspension and brake upgrades as well the car will be a nightmare. That kind of power is way above what even the C43 has and it has both upgraded brakes and suspension. You would need again at the minimum coilovers of some kind, fixed or adjustable, stainless brake lines, drilled and slotted rotors, performance pads, wider wheels with performance tires and probably a sway bar kit. I would recommend you go a step further and either get some used AMG brake calipers or some aftermarket performance brakes.

Doing this could easily cost you 10 grand or more, but you would have one hell of a sleeper. The old saying is you have three choices, fast, cheap and reliable. Choose two you can have all three.

[c280power]

yea i did search some things.. and like u said intake, exhaust, headers and chip.. i have an intake already.. i believe its a short ram.. ive been looking around and most w202s that ive seen here have cai.. and custom ones.. most of them have a long pipe going to the bottom of the car where the fog light would be at.. whats the difference between a cai and sri? and have u heard of the chip that i referred to in my first post?

[c280power]

oh and im sorry if i sound stupid.. but what is a crankshaft?

[c280power]

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/c280power/IMG_1613.jpghttp://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/c280power/IMG_1560.jpghttp://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n579/c280power/IMG_1561.jpg

[Sulaco]

Ah, yes. The question about having a fast C280 with the m104.

I got my 1994 C280 when I was 16. It had 14k miles on it.

In high school with my redneck town classmates, I had the fastest car on the road. Everything with a V8 in it was a huge, slow pickup. The rice rocket phase hadn't hit yet, so no one even looked at hondas.

The C280 with the m104 was a peppy little car. It had a healthy amount of hp and torque, and it definitely felt fast. The problem, is that you have to pick what kind of "fast" you're talking about.

"Fast" as in you want to be proud of it and boast to other car nerds about how fast your car is?

Or "fast" as in, you drive a slick looking, classic mercedes sedan with enough power to impress you, "but she won't win any races" (even though she will).

The C280 was not meant to be a fast car. Suffice to say, when compared with most off-the-shelf sedans, it's faster (if it's still healthy for its age, that is). But only slightly faster. Sure, you'll have fun smoking teenagers in their stock sentra/altima/corolla/camry etc. But the minute someone with a true sports car of any type shows up, you lose. As zmatt said, you've got 2 options. Cheap upgrades here and there to squeeze just a little more power out of it (none of them giving you any really noticeable gains). Or, go big-budget and build a bad assed sleeper that no one will see coming. But he's right in saying you'll be in the $10,000 range. Obviously not worth it.

The venerable old m104 C280 is most useful in its original state. I'd go the cheap route. CAI, maybe a high flow cat or muffler. ECU tune will net you nearly nothing. The bottom line is that a loved C280 with the m104 and mechanical 4spd transmission will carry you from now until the day you die. The m104 was extraordinarily reliable. So was the transmission. Trust me. Look at my sig.

And no, you won't burn up your transmission shifting that way. I've been doing it for 12 years. As long as you properly maintain with flushes and filters, you should never have any real trouble out of that gearbox. I have literally NEVER flushed mine. It has a serious flare between 3rd and 4th, and leaks like hell at the main seal.

My recommendation is to just treat her well. She will treat you well. Mine has left me stranded twice since 1999.

Just upgrade to a C43 or C36 if you want a fast w202. You still won't outrun alot of "true" sports cars, but you'll put up a damn good fight. The C36 has the m104, but as previously stated, it has the AMG tuned version. It puts out serious power for a N/A straight 6 and I believe the cars trim looks better than a C43. But with the C43, you get the option of doing an engine swap to the AMG tuned 5.4l with exactly ZERO further parts or modifications needed. At that point, you're driving the ultimate w202. You can pick up a high-mileage C43 (with plenty of life left in it) for anywhere between 5-8k. You can find the 5.4l engines all over the place for $1500-2500.

Edit: I don't want to sound rude, but if you're asking what a crankshaft is, you should probably avoid any really big modifications for now.
The crankshaft is a crucial engine component. It's a specially angled and weighed rod inside the entine that all of the pistons connect to. The pistons firing up and down rotate the crankshaft and that is how the engine's power is sent back to the drivetrain. You have much to learn, and you've picked a great car and a great forum to do so.

[strictlyspeakin]

Welcome.

I'm no expert. I suspect that the advantage of the CAI is to attempt to get cold air into the engine. Since cold air is denser than warm air more air gets into the cylinder. The location of the SRI in your picture means that it is sucking in relatively warmer air.

I haven't heard about this particular chip and price isn't too expensive if you want to take a flyer and try it. Post up if you do. I found this url which seems to better describe what these guys might be doing
MAP sensor tuning (http://kingenterprises.net/IAT-Timing-Tricker.htm)

[zmatt]

Welcome.

I'm no expert. I suspect that the advantage of the CAI is to attempt to get cold air into the engine. Since cold air is denser than warm air more air gets into the cylinder. The location of the SRI in your picture means that it is sucking in relatively warmer air.

I haven't heard about this particular chip and price isn't too expensive if you want to take a flyer and try it. Post up if you do. I found this url which seems to better describe what these guys might be doing
MAP sensor tuning (http://kingenterprises.net/IAT-Timing-Tricker.htm)



From the looks of it he is doing that on a chevy LS v8. That uses a MAP or manifold air pressure sensor. It works differently than our MAF or mass air flow sensor. That mod wont really work the way it is on our cars.


lots of stuff

I agree, if the OP doesn't know what a crank is he needs to slow down and pick up some basic knowledge before anything else. While the 5.5 swap in the C43 is "easy" its a relative term. It's easy if you have pulled and installed a motor before. I would recommend that you stick with doing regular maintenance, and some basic mods for now. As things break come here for advice. When you feel like you have a good grasp of basic mechanical knowledge and some money then we can start about the great beyond that is power and torque.

Honestly probably what you really want on the day to day basis isn't real power or speed, but just the feeling of it. With that a good exhaust and intake will make it sound much better and the good 'ole butt dyno will tell you that you are flying. Straight sixes sound great unhinged and half the draw to them is the noise they make with a good exhaust.

[c280power]

wow thanks guys! for all the info u guys gave me. it all helps. and haha im sorry for sounding stupid when i asked about the crankshaft.. truthfully i knew what that was when u were explaining it haha, anyways thanks. what i think im ganna do is go with wat zmatt said, a cai, and exhaust, heads and chip.. ill be posting up pics as i get them done :)

[strictlyspeakin]

I used the incorrect acronym and am duly corrected. I typed MAP in the description and should have typed IAT.

[zmatt]

I don't think our cars have IATs installed, at least I don't remember seeing one on the intake.

[TurboIS_DJ]

I don't think our cars have IATs installed, at least I don't remember seeing one on the intake.

The intake air temp sensor is probably part of the MAF sensor like it is on a lot of cars.

[Sulaco]

Another idea for an "easy" HP gain on an m104 c280 is an engine swap to a 3.6l. It's highly unlikely, though. If you found a wrecked/dead C36, the engine would bolt right in to a C280, with no other mods needed (much like dumping the 5.4 into a C43). You'd get an extra 80hp immediately. However, this is still a high-level upgrade, and the fabled C36 is even more rare than the C43. Plus, any mods you do to your C280 would carry over to the C36. Start casually browsing local wreck yards for a C36 donor car or just the engine.

If you get tired of looking for a 3.6, you could EASILY find a 3.2l m104 from a wrecked 1994-1997 E320. W124 or w210 it won't matter. It's still a classic M104 but will feel much healthier than the 2.8l. I have a 1994 E320 and a 1994 C280. You can instantly tell the difference just by sitting in either car and revving the engine. Either the 3.2l has just enough power to make the difference, or the C280 has a heavier flywheel or crank pulley. Revving either car up to 4k rpms shows a huge difference. The E320 revs up there MUCH MUCH faster than the 2.8l. The E320 out weighs the C280 by 500+ pounds. However, put the two next to each other at a red light and the difference is amazing. My wife drives the E320. Shortly after we bought it, we raced them. She was sitting with her foot on the brake and the A/C on full. I had windows down and had the brake/gas held with the engine primed at 2k rpms. It was embarassing. I was smoked, big time.

[c280power]

What does the c36 engine have that I don't? I know the c36 has amg parts and stuff.. But is it supercharged? Like a kompressor? Like what makes its faster than other 202s.. And switching to a c36 engine sounds pretty good.. There's alot over here.. I'm ganna look around

[Sulaco]

Same engine. But bigger bore and stroke. There's no replacement for displacement!

[zmatt]

Another idea for an "easy" HP gain on an m104 c280 is an engine swap to a 3.6l. It's highly unlikely, though. If you found a wrecked/dead C36, the engine would bolt right in to a C280, with no other mods needed (much like dumping the 5.4 into a C43). You'd get an extra 80hp immediately. However, this is still a high-level upgrade, and the fabled C36 is even more rare than the C43. Plus, any mods you do to your C280 would carry over to the C36. Start casually browsing local wreck yards for a C36 donor car or just the engine.

If you get tired of looking for a 3.6, you could EASILY find a 3.2l m104 from a wrecked 1994-1997 E320. W124 or w210 it won't matter. It's still a classic M104 but will feel much healthier than the 2.8l. I have a 1994 E320 and a 1994 C280. You can instantly tell the difference just by sitting in either car and revving the engine. Either the 3.2l has just enough power to make the difference, or the C280 has a heavier flywheel or crank pulley. Revving either car up to 4k rpms shows a huge difference. The E320 revs up there MUCH MUCH faster than the 2.8l. The E320 out weighs the C280 by 500+ pounds. However, put the two next to each other at a red light and the difference is amazing. My wife drives the E320. Shortly after we bought it, we raced them. She was sitting with her foot on the brake and the A/C on full. I had windows down and had the brake/gas held with the engine primed at 2k rpms. It was embarassing. I was smoked, big time.


3.2 swap sounds like a smart move for a lot of guys. The 3.2 motor is really common and cheap. They can be had for less than a grand and no special parts are needed for the swap. I think the C36 has a hotter cam too, max power is 250rpm later in the C36 (5750rpm as opposed to 5500). I saw on ebay a salvage title running C36 a few weeks back for 2 grand. Motor was in good shape. It would have been a good start, the wheels, body kit, motor, seats, gauges etc are easily worth 2 grand.

[Denlasoul]

Mosselmann makes a turbo kit for the M104 engine.

Though I have to agree that an engine swap would be a good idea, but there is a lot more than just taking out the engine and replacing.

You can forget about the C43 engine. It will cost you more money and give you a headache. LOTS need to be upgraded. A c36 engine swap may work with minimal upgrades. I would consult an MB mechanic or local MB mechanic to see what REALLY takes to do that swap.

With that said, a 94 with likely high miles and wear and tear, will cost you about 4-5x the car's value to do serious engine performance.

[zmatt]

I think it all depends on what your definition of "hard" is. A V8 swap wouldn't require any fab or custom parts, just off the shelf Mercedes parts. granted it would take a lot of work and it would be tedious. If you have a good mechanical basis and have all the shop manuals it isn't difficult, just tedious. It also wouldn't be cheap.

You can get M113 V8s for pretty cheap with the tranny but you also need to upgrade the suspension and brakes as I have said before and the fuel system, and the new mounts need to be ordered, and you need and exhaust , and and and. But there aren't really any unknown values there. You're just taking what was an assembly line job done by many people and robots with the parts in front of them to a few guys who have to find them.

If the OP has ever pulled and transplanted a motor before then he should have a pretty good idea what he is getting into. A C36 swap would definitely be quicker and easier, but I think the motor is less common.


Also, with all of these new "How do I go fast" threads. I'm strongly considering making a thread laying it all out.

[Denlasoul]

zmatt

I absolutely agree that the upgrades are pretty much off the shelf stuff, BUT based on the topic and questions asked I am guessing the OP will need to hire someone. So based on cost of parts plus labor, it will be 4-5x value of the car, and a headache as he may not know how to fix potential problems that may arise. Wiring is easy if you know what to do, most people (myself included) only know basics. No need to wire up a car to start a fire.

[Logic]

if you add a w202 sticker that adds 5 horse power :)

[zmatt]

@Denalsoul, well the wiring isn't that bad really. If you get an uncut wiring harness and ecu its more about running the wiring through the same holes that the stock one was. You shouldn't have to cut or solder anything. But if you don't label everything and have a good wiring diagram i can see it getting confusing fast. As for maintenance, since it's an AMG engine any mercedes tech should be able to service it fine. The hard part would be when it comes time to replace parts the you sourced from other cars. I would keep a detailed list of everything changed, what it is from and what the part # is. It would be harder to work on than a stock 202 thats for sure, but probably easier than a custom turbo setup as there shouldn't be any custom fabbed parts needed.

[Denlasoul]

Good to know. Unfortunately, I've seen too many instances where people half-assed it. Not necessarily on this site, but you know how it goes......

[zmatt]

Yeah good point. It all comes down to how bad you want it I think. There are several really good and equally valid ways to get more power and performance out of our cars. It just depends on how bad you want it and how much money you have. You could put on a bigger supercharger, go turbo, or swap a V8. Pick your poison lol.

[triod3signs]

Ok searched everywhere.... nothing comes up under "e320 swap" "3.2" "3.2l"
So my question is.... Is the 3.2 swap really that easy on my 96 c280? (m104)
I mean will I pay my mechanic more than just replacing the same 2.8l?

[zmatt]

I don't think anyone has done it yet, but as far as I can tell the motor is almost identical to the 2.8L M104 you have. It will bolt up to the stock transmission and the stock ecu should be able to work with it as well (the c43 guys use stock ecus when they swap in 5.5L motors and thats a bigger difference) All you should need is the motor itself and just pull the 2.8 and drop in the 3.2 hooking everything up the same way.

[95mbC280]

isn't the 3.2 the same motor just a longer stroke?

[zmatt]

yes it is. The question is if the mounts, fittings, sensor locations etc are all the same. My guess is yes. No reason to change em. If they are then even someone who is relatively new to this kind of thing wont have too hard a time.

[95mbC280]

well I'm actually thinking about that swap just because the 280 doesn't have the power i want and theres plenty of wrecked e320s around my area. it wouldn't be that hard then if it's plug and go plus i've done plenty of engine swaps before so it wouldn't be bad

[zmatt]

I saw go for it. Be sure to post a build thread so other owners know what they are getting in to.

[Sulaco]

I own a 94 c280, 95 c280, and 94 e320. The engine is completely identical in every regard except bore and stroke. Every sensor goes in the same place. All parts and accessories are interchangeable (except the obvious internals like crank or pistons). The precise locations of the pulleys on the front are very slightly different, but not enough to cause any trouble. I mean, its the same engine. Swapping should be as easy as plug and play.

One forum member here did this swap back in the day, though he doesn't post anymore. Look him up: jnenad16 is his username. He still sometimes posts at benzworld I think.

I can offer pics of areas of my engine and bays if you have any questions.

[triod3signs]

That would be fantastic! ^ please lets get some pics going.

[95mbC280]

yes post some pics of the 320 because from what i've seen so far they look identical