I have been wondering this

[Mike51809]

What is the reason why no one puts a bigger supercharger on the m111 engine?

[zmatt]

it's something I have looked in to. The short answer is cost. The longer answer is it isn't as cut and dry as fitting a bigger turbo to a turbo car.
]

Superchargers operate off of a pulley on the crank that drives a belt that spins the blower. The speed that it spins, and thus the boost is derived by the ratio between the crank pulley and the pulley on the snout of the supercharger. The pulley has to spin very fast so it has to be very well built or it could fail catastrophically under load. Because of this pulleys are expensive. Now to fit another supercharger would require a few things, 1) a custom pulley to get the right boost, 2) the correct length snout (if we are talking about roots types which are the cheapest), and 3) a way to integrated the Mercedes bypass valve system if you are using the stock ecu.


Eaton M90 superchargers are actually pretty cheap and can be had used for about $200 which is an awesome deal. I've looked at the specs and not only do they push far more air, but they are only slightly larger packaging wise than the M62 we have. The problem them comes from the pulley and getting it to work with the stock bypass system. The M62 and M90 manifolds do not mount to each other so you will need a new one machined for you that allows it to bolt up.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/attachments/r170-slk-class/138245d1187060839-blow-off-valve-eaton-m45-pulley-m111-engine-slk.jpg


Here is a good shot of the supercharger. As you can see, not only does it bolt on to the engine block, but it also has that ungainly manifold on it. The M90 won't bolt to that mount so you will need a custom mount as well. That's more money. As you can see, its a lot of trouble.


Another solution is using a non-roots type such as a procharger, or paxton unit. These guys are centifugal like a turbo and they are essentially a turbo that operates via pulley instead of exhaust gas.

http://www.motorator.com/uploads/blog_images/0000/0110/ProCharger_GM_Engine.jpg

Mounting one of these guys would be easier most likely, as you could just have a bracket up front like in the picture. However you still need a pulley of the correct size, completely new intake routing and this wont play nice with the bypass system. You would most liekly want to switch to a standalone ecu. Decent haltech units start at $1600 installed with a custom loom and megasquirt can be much cheaper, but its very DIY. On top of that prochargers cost as much as turbos. You will be paying over a grand at least.



For the trouble its probably better to go turbo.

[Mike51809]

Thank you for explaining all that to me! Damn Mercedes doesn't make anything easy.. With a custom turbo setup I'd have to go like slammed's car and make everything custom which is A LOT of money. I just would love to have big numbers from the c230 because its more unique than just upgrading to a c43 and slapping a supercharger on or something like that, then you have one of the few like it. Maybe a port and polish will give me some more for now? When I get out of college a turbo is calling my name :)

[zmatt]

There are three things, fast, cheap and reliable, choose two man. You can be fast and reliable but it will cost $$$$ or you could be fast and cheap but you will blow the motor, you can also be cheap and reliable but be slow as hell. That's how it works.

Really a turbo build on this motor isn't all that bad relatively speaking of course. It will be a few grand, but turbo kits are always a few grand. A few important bits pricing wise for you to consider
-An ecu can vary a lot in price. You get what you pay for. Motec like Paul used will be 4 grand or more, Haltech which is very popular now a days start about a grand and go up, Megasquirt kits are $300 but very DIY, i'd only recommend them if you know what you are doing

-Turbos also vary on price, new ball bearing units cost a few grand. I recommend getting a used one. Ball bearing if you can, but most likely journal bearing. Look on car forums for turbo cars, you can probably pick up someone's oem turbo pretty cheap, that would be a good place to start. A GT25 from an SR20 is a good turbo and will get you started, if you want more power you can buy a GT35 down the road

-A decent custom turbo manifold will be about $500 give or take if you make it out of good steel

-An important consideration is if you want to use the stock intake, throttle body and injectors. Keeping them will limit you and they will have to be replaced in the long run but they will keep the price down in the short term. Maybe Paul can weigh in on what the power limit with the stock tb and injectors are.

You will want a real intercooler to keep the intake charge temp down, not the pos brick we have stock. It wont fit under the stock bumper, so you can either cut it and look like Bugs Bunny or you can get a different bumper. The AMG bumper is easily twice the size as the normal one and Dynocomp fits a decent intercooler behind it for their C43 supercharger kit.

All of your intake piping will have to be replaced, but that should go without saying. I would have a custom bung for you MAF made while you are at it like I have. 3inch piping should be plenty.

At the very least you will need a new downpipe from your turbo to your exhaust, however I recommend getting a full new exhaust. In turbo cars back pressure is very important, if the exhaust is tiny then the gasses have no where to go and they will slow down and thus not spin the compressor wheel. I don't know your emissions laws but I would say 3inch turbo back with a high flow catalytic converter, and performance resonator and muffler. The car wont be quiet, the turbo will muffle it a bit but people will hear you coming.

-all the parts in the world don't help if you have a shit tune. A good tune is the difference between 300hp and 400hp with the same motor. The place I go to charges $150/hr for dyno tuning on a dyno dynamics. If you use something common like Haltech any reputable tuner should be able to work with it.


Other things that are a good idea, an external wastegate, the oem turbo will likely have one built in, its crap get an external one. You will need a decent BOV since the Mercedes bypass valve is in the trash can. Probably anywhere near 300hp (probably less) you will want more fuel, so a warlboro fuel pump with a new fuel pump regulator and bigger injectors. 2bar is a good place to start for the regulator and Paul's experience seems to show Evo injectors work well. Of course that means a new intake manifold. Individual runners with a large plenum is the way to go, just about every serious turbo car does that. You may also want to worry about cooling, but our cars have pretty robust cooling systems, one belt fan, 2 electric fans and a decent sized radiator.


The upshot of all of this is the M111 is a beast of a motor if there ever was one. The thing is a torque monster and you can run pretty decent boost on stock internals. They really over engineered it, which is great for you.

If Paul and Slammed could chime in with their experience that would be great.

[Mike51809]

I wish I had someone like you around when I went to go do it, you know a lot! I wanna make it mean and you're right the way to do it is reliable and right but expensive. I'm not one for posing, if my car is loud you bet your ass it can back it up. I love custom work too so I think this would be fun, and with guys like you that know their stuff on here ill have some help. Now I just wish I had a loan lol

[zmatt]

Slammed's build thread and Paul's Cardomain page will give you an idea of what is involved. I would pick their brains. They have had to suffer through the pitfalls and can give you a lot of advice. I would also get int touch with the tuners and fabricators in your area. form a good relationship with them and let them know what you want to do. You can start making a plan.

Are you in school? Do you have a job that can allow you to afford this kind of work?

[Mike51809]

Alright sounds good. Well I live in hillbilly hell where everyone cuts there exhaust off and its the most redneck sound lol I'm moving to Orlando to go to UTI in may or so and I imagine there are a lot more tuning shops than in Missouri lol. I don't have the money now but I'm starting to save from my minimum wage job and I owe my dad some still on it. I didn't like the car a whole lot at first but after a while I liked the power and the uniqueness of it. I have big plans for it and in Orlando there's no dirt roads :) lol

[Yujin]

Well said ZMatt, I appreciate the time you put into the posts.

[zmatt]

No problem I enjoy helping the community.

[Mike51809]

I agree with yujin. You are very smart man, I appreciate all the advice you give and your opinions you sound like you know all your stuff and that's hard to find cuz no one knows crap about our cars lol

[zmatt]

Haha thanks man, honestly though there is no difference between our cars and any other, there is just less aftermarket support (I blame the community for not demanding more) and people have no done as much with them. I had a guy try to argue to me that the 2JZ is a better motor than the M104, not really. its better supported and people have done more with it, but I have yet to actually find a shitty straight 6. If you have the will and money then you can accomplish anything. The path to power on a benz is no different than any other car. You just have to find people willing to work with you. For example, in the long run i am going with a Haltech (http://www.haltech.com/) standalone ecu which will work both with the M111 and M113. The make plug and play harnesses for a lot of common tuner cars, but they also have no problem using the bosch sensors and running our car. The solution is the same as any other car with serious mods. Ditch the crappy stock ecu and put in a powerful standalone and dyno tune with your mods. Hell they were finishing up a sentra se-r with a custom turbo kit and it is using the same ecu that I will.

[Mike51809]

Would an ecu reflash do about the same as a stand alone? That's true our engines are pretty beast, I would love to make a shop and specialize in performance parts for our cars so they can see they do whoop ass with a little tuning. Everyone thinks they're mustang gt is fast but I have half the cylinders and the same power lol No prob man

[zmatt]

The short answer is "depends".

The long answer is no, if you have any real mods a standalone will be better. Why? well aside from the ease of reflashing it, standalone ecus also have more powerful processors that allow for a more accurate digital fuel map. A fuel map is is simply a grid that determines how much fuel the injectors are spraying at a given load and rpm

http://turboninjas.com/gallery/d/31897-1/fuel+map.JPG

A better ecu will allow you to have more grid spaces so the fuel map will be more precise and you will get more power and efficiency

http://www.ecutek.com/products/proecu/images/fuel-map.png

But there is more to it than that. With a stock ecu, depending on the model you can be limited to what you can tune for. Some have limited spark advance control, some have limit boost support and some dont support boost at all.

A good standalone will have hard and soft rev cuts, a built in map sensor, launch control, wideband support, sequential injection, multiple injectors per cylinder support, twin spark support, VVT control (vtec, vanos etc), intercooler spray control, room for different maps (ie: performance map, fuel econ map, valet map) and the ability to switch them from the driver's seat, CAN bus support so you can have a lot of cool addons installed, the list goes on.

[Mike51809]

You can do that with any upgrades you just have to tune it on a dyno?

[zmatt]

Sorry, you're confusing me. You can do what?

[Mike51809]

Like I have an exhaust and an ecu tune now with the stock ecu, if I put in a different one like you're talking about I can just tune it a lot more precise than the stock one?

[zmatt]

Yup. I wouldn't spend the extra money on a stand alone unless you were going to do more hardcore mods.

[Mike51809]

One day when I can afford a turbo setup maybe then :). What mods so you have on your car?

[zmatt]

Right now just a custom cat back and intake with new maf housing. When I do my V8 conversion I will get a standalone.

[Mike51809]

I saw your dyno numbers with those mods, just didn't know if there was anything new :P LS swap will be pretty beast, definitely more power and after market support, very unique in a merc

[zmatt]

Not doing the LS, doing an AMG. M113 5.5L to be exact. Only a little harder on the non-amgs to swap in, but everything still drops in and I will sidestep any electrical issues with a standalone ecu.

[Mike51809]

That will be sweet in a c230, the best sleeper lol