Stock ignition timing for Kompressor engine?

[tomant]

Hello folks,

I have swapped in my W201 car a European C200 Kompressor engine (111.944 = M111 E20 ML) which originally gave 141 kW and 270 Nm. It's nearly the same as 230K engines and this smaller engine was sold for tax reasons to some European countries in 1996-2000. I run a DECS stand alone management system to control fuel and spark. Has anybody got ignition timing values for Kompressor engines? I would appreciate timing values for 100 kPa = 0 psi boost and 150 kPa = 7.5 psi boost and for different RPM's. Any form of graphical, numerical or text values would be great. I have the Mercedes WIS data, but it only gives a few values for idle (5...13 degrees) and boost (13...16 degrees).

Thanks
tomant

[yzn]

i have been visiting your site for few times , some nice info specially the tps and trigger wheel
sadly you won't get much info for ignition on this site (try peachparts.com)
i'm putting megasquirt ems on m111 in my w123 with kompressor(supercharger) upgrade , i can share with you my initial spark map when i test it.

[tomant]

OK, thanks yzn.

tomant

[yzn]

on your site you mentioned you have problem with bypass valve, since its just an expensive electronic dump valve you could just replace it with cheap ones run on vacuum , this will fix your problem in idle with supercharge without blowing pipes, thats what i have done and i'm using eaton m45 which don't have magnetic clutch (which mean it always charging),
and at what rpm you turn the valve timing on and off?

[tomant]

I have blocked the bypass valve now and I control the magnetic clutch with my stand alone ECU. I am testing combinations of RPM and TPS when the magnetic clutch closes. At lower RPM's the TPS is around 60% and at higher RPM's the TPS goes down to 10-20%. This way the car it not too jumpy at lower RPM's and I can cruise without the supercharger.

I am not sure how my ecu handles the intake valve solenoid. I have tried different RPM's when the cam retards but it doesn't seem to make changes in the performance. I must try with a separate ground switch so I now how thw cam works. Should there be a big difference between the cam positions?

[yzn]

i have never seen anyone controlling magnetic clutch like that, if it works thats great.
On m104 engine the cam timing seems to make a huge different on power, i still i haven't test it on m111 until i can fix some few problems. The stock ecu turn the cam timing ON at 1200rpm and OFF until 4300rpm. i going to try to keep it ON until the redline to see it effect on power.
what is your redline? i think stock is 6200rpm? as i also think about raising it a bit

[tomant]

Today I got the cam advance working by manual switch. It feels like the engine pulls better but I didn't have time to test it much. If the cam advance is ON at idle, the engine stalls so the stock lower limit 1200 rpm for ON seems OK. I can't get the idle rpm below 1000 with the M102 idle controller.

I use a 6000 rpm redline and now the rev limiter is set at 6300 so it has a little headroom. The American manual for the C230 K says that maximum rpm is 5800 but I believe that's a little conservative and besides the pistons are a little lighter in the 200 K, too. That 5800 is propably for long time running so shortly it can handle higher revs.

[zmatt]

The M111 has a very stout bottom end. I know Paul is running something like 15 psi on stock internals and a slightly higher redline with no issues. Mercedes engines are well made and I thin the pistons are forged.

[yzn]

I'm not familiar with m102 icv , i'm not running an idle valve just using throttle stop.
Since i'm using and older m111 from w124 the rev limiter could be different , but 5800 seems to be too low i'm sure it can handle more than 6300rpm maybe 6800 or even more !
what is the compression on m111 20k? 9 or 8.8 ? mine is 2.2L which run 10:1 its a bit high but the supercharger i'm using it eaton m45 boost to 5 psi this engine could handle it. what boost are you running?

small video for my car (old video) when the car was running stock ecu with just bigger injector and adjustable fpr :cool: was last test before installing the megasquirt


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJnrsIa7sGc

[tomant]

My M111 2.0 Kompressor (M111 E20 ML = 111.944) has 8.5 CR and the Eaton M62 gives about 7 psi (0.5 bar) boost with stock pulleys and cam advance ON.

[yzn]

any update on this??

[tomant]

Waiting for a pulley kit I bought on eBay.de. During the winter I will modify my old intercooler and the SC outlet pipe because of high intake temperatures. I will also change the diff to ASD with shorter drive axles.

I found an interesting story about modifying the Eaton M62 at http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r170-slk-class/1516156-home-port-job-eaton-m62-s-11.html

[zmatt]

That's a great thread, Subby has done a lot of work modding the M62.

[yzn]

how high does the IAT gets? a good solution is running water injection , something i always wanted to test specially pre compressor water injection but did not have the chance too test it.
(Maybe this is a late advice) but if want more boost convert to turbo or get more crazier and twincharge it :cool: ,which i hope to test it in the future :).
With 8.5 compression you could definitely run 1 bar safe
If you use a dump valve it could be more easy than controlling the SC with rpm and tps maybe this could fix your problem with high 1/4 time (bosch ones are cheap) works great

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/yzn90/m1112011_zpsf60d1eb7.jpg

this is an old setup before converting to megasquirt as you can see the MAF sensor

and ASD diff is great idea , sadly w123 don't have lsd diff , i thinking about weld mine (some won't like that)

[tomant]

Just had a few tests but the IAT went from 25 C to 39 C in 16 seconds 1/4 mile and from 24 C to 51 C in a one mile pull with stock 0.5 bar. The old intercooler and one bar turbo setup only went up a few degrees on the 1/4 mile so it was more efficient (as was the turbo, too). I have also thought about sequential twin charging with the SC first with high drive ratio maybe to 3000-4000 rpm and then a turbo to redline. This way one cooler would be enough. I will consider the bypass after I get the new pulley and intercooler setup working,

[zmatt]

IMO twincharging isn't worth it, too much money and work for something that only makes sense in a stupid power build. you will be fine with a turbo or well modded SC.

[tomant]

You are probably right, zmatt. But I do have the SC and I do have a turbo that could work so I might be interested in twincharging just to see if I can do it ,-) Just for maximum power the best way is a single turbo but I like the instant power of the SC at lower revs, too. I don't think I have the skill to mod the SC internally.

Anyhow I got the pulley kit and I will test how it works with my ignition and fuel maps. It will spin the SC 21% faster so it should help. Hope the IAT stays reasonable.

[yzn]

I havn't test my IAT but will post them when i do, i have started the car but didn't get stable idle (my throttle stop idea didn't work that well) now i'm waiting for my throttle body from the machine shop for a better idea, hope it fix that.
My idea about twincharge is a turbo blowing to supercharger seems a lot easier than running them in parallel since the turbo won't be a restriction on supercharger in low rpm.
Modding the supercharger in my opinion not worth the trouble and won't give that much improvement. And would like to test the twincharge setup just to see what it do as their is so much wrong information on the internet about it, same as tomant i really have supercharger and a turbo (choosing the right turbo is very important) mine is from nissan rb25 engine i'm not sure if the turbo would work!
Just saw your update about the pulley , it looks great, looks a lot better than replacing the whole crank pulley.

[tomant]

...My idea about twincharge is a turbo blowing to supercharger seems a lot easier than running them in parallel since the turbo won't be a restriction on supercharger in low rpm...That way it was done in Lancia Delta S4 but it had an intercooler between the turbo and SC and another cooler after the SC. Without the intercooler the air after the turbo might be too hot for the SC at higher boost levels. So this setup with two coolers and two bypass valves is not very simple and may need programmable management.

[yzn]

i didn't know that lancia run it like that ,a small intercooler between the turbo and SC will do the job or (as i said before) water injection :D , i think there is no need for two bypass valve , one will do. That's the reason why i want to test to see all the internet weird theories:confused: . But i have to finish the car first :) then to start testing. Or i could just switch to turbo (which i should have done in the beginning)

[yzn]

today i have started the car , have a bit idling problem keep idling at 2100 !! ,played with throttle stop to 3% throttle drop rpm to 1400-1500, and then drop the advance to 10 deg!! now it idle at 950 !
what is your idle rpm?and at what degree ?

[tomant]

My idle advance is 10 degres, too. The engine probably idles from 0 to 15 degrees advance. I can set the engine idling smoothly from 800...900 up with cam advance OFF but not so smoothly and over 1000 with cam advance ON. The Bosch 2-wire idle controller PWM is about 34%, smaller values don't make any difference especially with cam advance ON. My throttle butterfly is closed at idle. The idle controller and the throttle don't seem to close the air inlet completely, there is leakage in the system.

[yzn]

i think i have found my problem , the vacuum line that goes to gearbox wasn't connected on the gear side. will try to start my engine tomorrow after wiring my wideband sensor .
back on the main thread topic (spark table)
this is my initial ignition table:
i think its good base map , few adjustment there and should work fine

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/yzn90/spkyzn_m111-1.jpg
(anyone feel free to use this map , but this is untest one)

[tomant]

Thanks, yzn, I will look closer at the map later, but I have about the same ignition values. This is my current ignition map which works but is not fine tuned. Sorry that I cant scale it in one window so it needs two pics. The values with higher revs are the same as 4500 rpm. Could not insert images, because they were too large (150 kB??), but here are the links. The load in my map is hPa, so 1000 hPa = 100 kPa = 1 bar.

http://www.tomant.net/kuvat/M111-IgnitionMap2012-09-26-A.jpg
http://www.tomant.net/kuvat/M111-IgnitionMap2012-09-26-B.jpg

Edit:
*We have about the same timing advance at 0.6 bar boost (160 kPa) and 4000-5000 rpm, your is 14 degrees and mine is 16 degrees.
*I have all advance in at 3000 rpm and you have slightly raising advance towards higher revs.
*Your advance is 35-42 degrees at 50-30 kPa and mine is 35-36 degrees. I will raise my vacuum timing, which could save some fuel at cruising.
*Your max timing is 25 degrees at 100 kPa and 4000-5000 rpm and mine is 30 degrees. I got the best acceleration with 30 degrees and no boost, when I tested it on the road. I only ran one acceleration test / advance degree (2nd gear from 3000 to 6000 degrees and about constant 22 to 32 degrees) and the differences were small.
*If the timing is +-5 degrees off the optimum value (MBT), the torque is only 1-2 % down so the values can change a lot as long as there is NO detonation.
*I don't use knock control, but I haven't heard any pinging yet.

[yzn]

it seems if i add 4-5 degrees to my whole map ours will be very similar.
Those areas with 40-45 (high rev and low MAP) i don't think that the engine will reach them. Tuning for cruising should be near 3000 at low MAP.
i think i should add few degree at boost from 3500-limiter just like yours.
30 degree at 100kpa seems right, but your engine is 8.5 mine is 10 so i think i should be more concerned about detonation. A knock sensor will be great idea. i have read on the net some people use those big headphones with pipe into it connected to engine block!! not sure if it works but won't hurt to try it, search for detonation cans.
i will try your map if you don't mind

[tomant]

Sure you can use my map on your own risk. But like you said you have higher CR so be careful. What kind of gasolene are you using, I use 98 RON pump gas.

I have seen headphones too and even big aluminium plates attached to plastic tubes for listening to the knock but the M111 original knock sensor must be the best sensor. My ECU can listen to the knock sensor but I haven't used it yet because I want to control the ignition myself.

[yzn]

I'm using 95 fuel. i have started the car today but didn't get stable idle , now i think my problem is the VE table(fuel table).
like if it idle at 1000rpm or anything lower it will die after few sec , but it it idle at 1300 !! it will stay there and won't go under 55kpa MAP. Maybe my problem is with injector configuration , do you know the exact injecters size (is it 290cc) ? at what pressure ?

[tomant]

Try putting constant values in the VE table in the idle region from 0 to 1000 (1200?) rpm at loads from 30 to 60 kPa. You can put higher ignition advance under the desired idle rpm so the rpm won't drop lower (e.g. 15 deg@800 rpm and 10 deg@1200 rpm). The ignition advance influences the idle rpm and the stock ECU has dynamic 5...13 degrees advance in the 650...850 idle rpm range.

I don't know the stock injector size for 200K or 230K. If you have Bosch injectors, the flow could be found somewhere, I have a list of some Bosch injectors. The stock M111 fuel pressure regulator gives 4 bar pressure so 290cc@3 bar gives 334cc@4 bar, which seems reasonable.

My engine idles at around 50 kPa, for me that's OK. Is your cam advance ON or OFF at idle? Have you got a wideband lambda meter or other meter to check the fuel mixture? Does the engine sound like the mixture is too weak at 1000 rpm or is it choking?

[yzn]

The constant values idea is great will try it tomorrow. I have raised the advance at 700rpm to 15 but it keep oscillate between 700-1100 but if the MAP reach 70-80kpa it dies.(raising the VE values lower the MAP but raise the rpm)
my cam advance is off, today i wired my wideband but didn't have exact values as the idle wasn't stable(but at some point it show 10 and 16!!!)will datalog it next time.
At the 1000-1100rpm idle engine seems fine for few seconds but then drop to 700 and the go back to 1100 (without the advance at 700 it dies). Idling above 1200 stay stable with now problem.

[tomant]

If the MAP goes to 70-80 kpa your throttle might be too much open or you have air leaks in intake manifold, gaskets etc. What MAP do you have at 1200 idle? Maybe you should start with 1200 idle and tune ignition and VE down gradually. What is your target AFR at idle, I use 14,7 (lambda=1)?

[yzn]

i have started the car after fixing the throttle body and recalibrate the tps. now i'm getting stable idle at 950 rpm with MAP at 30kpa. Thanks for the advice on ve values
test drove the car for few minutes with 5800 limiter and cam advance off ,just need to fix few small problem (keep bogging when hit the throttle , i had similar problem with the old setup raising the fuel pressure fix it)
my target AFR at idle it 13.9 , video for a small drive: :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k03IymPUiY4&feature=plcp

i have datalog my run will post them later

[yzn]

just to update this, and too see if you got any new news !

the car had been running great , just retard the timing at high kpa because now i'm using 90octane fuel :(
but the good news i have add launch control (still under testing) and fix the kickdown (converted to an on/off toggle switch)
and installed an intercooler which really help to drop MAT from 65C to 35C :cool:

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/yzn90/mercic.png

[Mike51809]

What program did you use to tune everything?