Engine swap C36 into C280

[Vincent Hor]

Hi! I am a newbie to this forum. I am from Malaysia and I own a 1997 C280 I6 RHD. A friend has presented to me an offer to buy a Japanese LHD C36 parts car. The available parts are the compete C36 engine, 4 speed gear box, propeller shaft, rear differential, instrument cluster, and ECU.

Wire harness is for the LHD.

My questions
1. What are the problems that I may face with this swap?
2. Is it as simple as plug & play?
3. Can the wire harness from my C280 be fully compatable to this C36 engine?

Appreciate the advise from the experts here.

[W202FTW]

Hi! I am a newbie to this forum. I am from Malaysia and I own a 1977 C280 I6 RHD. A friend has presented to me an offer to buy a Japanese LHD C36 parts car. The available parts are the compete C36 engine, 4 speed gear box, propeller shaft, rear differential, instrument cluster, and ECU.

Wire harness is for the LHD.

My questions
1. What are the problems that I may face with this swap?
2. Is it as simple as plug & play?
3. Can the wire harness from my C280 be fully compatable to this C36 engine?

Appreciate the advise from the experts here.

It should be a direct swap with the motor and the transmission. You will probably need the driveshaft as they are not the same length as the ones found in non-AMG models.

[Vincent Hor]

W202FTW, thanks for your quick reply/advise. I believe the motor tranny, prop shaft & diff will bolt on easily. Yes, i will have the drive shaft too.

My main concern is the wire harness compatability. The donor car is LHD such the harness is too short. If I can be very sure that my RHD wire harness is fully compatable to this C36 motor then i think this project will be ON.

However I did notice that the AMG instrument cluster is slightly different from mine. On the C280 the adjustments for trip reset, clock and instrument panel lights adjustments are the press button type located at the side while the C36 donor car adjustment is done using the press/turn stalk type located on the lower & centre of the instrument cluster.

Seems to me that the C280 is a later version.

Thus I am quite concern about the compatability & complication I may face. The donor car is still in Japan.

[Dearlove]

what year c36 and what year c280?

either way, if you swap just the engine, that'll bolt straight in

[W202FTW]

W202FTW, thanks for your quick reply/advise. I believe the motor tranny, prop shaft & diff will bolt on easily. Yes, i will have the drive shaft too.

My main concern is the wire harness compatability. The donor car is LHD such the harness is too short. If I can be very sure that my RHD wire harness is fully compatable to this C36 motor then i think this project will be ON.

However I did notice that the AMG instrument cluster is slightly different from mine. On the C280 the adjustments for trip reset, clock and instrument panel lights adjustments are the press button type located at the side while the C36 donor car adjustment is done using the press/turn stalk type located on the lower & centre of the instrument cluster.

Seems to me that the C280 is a later version.

Thus I am quite concern about the compatability & complication I may face. The donor car is still in Japan.

Yes you're right - the instrument clusters will not be compatible. I've already tried the 94-95 clusters into my 96 280 and the connectors are different. I suppose if you wanted to make them work you could try to cut and splice but there's no guarantee that would even work. Does your current cluster have a light for ETS?

[Vincent Hor]

Sorry, what's the ETS? Don't think my C280 cluster has that check light.

[W202FTW]

Sorry, what's the ETS? Don't think my C280 cluster has that check light.

It's the traction control system.

[Vincent Hor]

Merry Christmas. Here's some pics of my C280. It's already fully fitted with original C36 AMG kits, AMG Exhaust, 17'' AMG Monoblocks.

Next project will be AMG 4 pots brakes & ARB.

886

[ATTACH=CONFIG]889

888

[mbsickness]

Very Nice. Painting the door moldings would complete the look.

[_Nick]

thats a very pretty 202. any pics of the '77?
good luck with your swap!

[Vincent Hor]

thats a very pretty 202. any pics of the '77?
good luck with your swap!

Nick, thanks. Sorry misquoted it's not 1977 instead it's 1997 and that's the car in the pics.

Original post duly edited.

[NW_Merc]

You dont need to change anything. The C36 is effectively the C280 but bored out to give it a bigger displacement. Take the engine out of yours, drop in the C36 engine and away you go. You may even be able to use the existing wiring loom.

[Vincent Hor]

The VIN for the Japan C36 is WDB2020281F071239

Appreciate if the experts here can share with me regarding how much thicker are the sway bars (Front & rear) of the C36 compared to the C280.

[Vincent Hor]

These are the front brake calipers from the above C36.

I have also got the rear calipers, all rotors ( the front are huge!), rear rotors are vented, AMG sport springs, absorbers (bilstein with AMG stamped on it) sway bars for front & rears. All items are in very good condition.

I need opinion on the spring pad thickness. What's the best combination that you guys have? The pads that came with springs are 4 dots for front and 3 dots for rear.

901

902

[mbsickness]

Vented rear rotors? Sounds like the donor car is a 1995 model. If this is the case the front calipers and rotors will not swap over unless you also swap the wheel bearing carriers. The springs have the same rates as what you have in the 97 as the C36 used the same springs but ones that were the shorter of the production run. Sounds like a fun project.

[Vincent Hor]

Thanks for the heads up. Appreciate it. Will work on it over the weekend ahead & report accordingly. Humm! Wheels bearing carrier as well. I think that makes sense.

[mbsickness]

Here is a picture of the 94-95 hub next to a 96-later hub. Not a huge difference but enough to make things not fit. In my case I was upgrading 96 C36 calipers and rotors to a 94 C280. The 96/97 C36 calipers and rotors differ from the ones used in 95 so you will need to swap bearing carriers as well. Not to bad as you have the whole parts car. Your front calipers should have AMG engraved on them being the 95 version.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v185/geraldch/HPIM4154.jpg

96/97 C36 front brakes (Calipers have ATE and piston size engraving)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v185/geraldch/HPIM4156.jpg

[Vincent Hor]

Thanks again mate. Indeed very helpful. And yes, AMG is embossed in the front calipers.

[evevevevev]

its rare to see another w202 being modded in malaysia.
thats a very nice and neat looking 202.
looking forward to see this thread.
best of luck, from JB.

[Vincent Hor]

its rare to see another w202 being modded in malaysia.
thats a very nice and neat looking 202.
looking forward to see this thread.
best of luck, from JB.

Hi! Nice to know my fellow country man is here too. It's hard to get anyone to share information about the AMG C36 back in our land. Even the C280 is almost unheard off.

I am from KL.

[evevevevev]

yes the c280 is rare over here and the c36/43 dont exist at all.
I went on the easy way and swapped a japs motor into my c220.
would love to see the c36 swap tho.

[Vincent Hor]

There are a few C36 in Malaysia. I have personally seen two which were taken in by my dealer friend. I was offered but didn't buy it. One unit was bought by my friend a British who lives in Malaysia & is married to a local Chinese girl.

He also uses the same mechanic as mine. I did mention about this car at www.merzclub.org

BTW here's pics of my previous C220. Some of you would have seen these pics in the net. It's got Carlsson wheels & Carlsson RS rear spoilers which is a very rare item.

909

910

[mbsickness]

Back to the original question. I believe the engine swap should be straightforward but make sure to swap the ECU as the programming is different. The transmission is one area which could be tricky as you have the 5 speed electronic version in your car and the 4 speed in the C36 is a vacuum unit. make sure to grab the lower half of the air cleaner box from the C36 as that too is an AMG modified item.

[Vincent Hor]

Here is a picture of the 94-95 hub next to a 96-later hub. Not a huge difference but enough to make things not fit. In my case I was upgrading 96 C36 calipers and rotors to a 94 C280. The 96/97 C36 calipers and rotors differ from the ones used in 95 so you will need to swap bearing carriers as well. Not to bad as you have the whole parts car. Your front calipers should have AMG engraved on them being the 95 version.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v185/geraldch/HPIM4154.jpg


96/97 C36 front brakes (Calipers have ATE and piston size engraving)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v185/geraldch/HPIM4156.jpg

Sorry for the silly question. Are you referring to the front or rear bearing carrier or is it both the front and the back?

[mbsickness]

As far as I know it is only the front. I did not change the rear setup on my car. But I have read where you will need to trim the rear splash shields a tiny bit but that is all.

[Vincent Hor]

Thanks mate. You have helped me make the task easier. Save our trouble in identifying what went wrong & running to the parts shop to get those items.

[Vincent Hor]

Got the suspension and braking system job done yesterday. 9 hours in total.

These are what was swapped.

Front :

AMG calipers
Brake rotors
Wheel bearing carrier with new bearings (Yes, there's a slight difference compared to the C280)
Sway bars
Springs
AMG absorbers
Renewed the idle arm bush

Rear
Calipers
Vented rotors
Springs
AMG absorbers
Sway bar (this one was though. Hardly any room to get it out. In the end, loosen all bolts in the rear sub frame & brought it down a bit)

Then an all wheel alignment.

Wheels fender gap, front about 3 fingers and rear less than 2. Hopefully these will settle down in days or weeks ahead. Goodness, those front AMG Monoblock spokes just barely cleared the outside of the calipers. Probably by just 1 - 2 mms.

Had a nice cup of coffee and now enjoying the nice firm but not harsh ride.

Thanks Mbsickness for the tips.

[mbsickness]

Congrats on getting so much work done so quickly. Glad the brakes swapped over easily. With the C36 springs did the car come down at all? Since you have a donor car you should change out the trim on the lower edge of each door as there are AMG specific ones to accommodate the skirts. This will give you a cleaner look where the door meets the top of the skirts.

[Vincent Hor]

Congrats on getting so much work done so quickly. Glad the brakes swapped over easily. With the C36 springs did the car come down at all? Since you have a donor car you should change out the trim on the lower edge of each door as there are AMG specific ones to accommodate the skirts. This will give you a cleaner look where the door meets the top of the skirts.

Good idea. That door rubber trim always looked out of place. I had thought of trimming them. Will check those on the donor car.

Tyre/fender gap - The rear height is nice (less than 2 fingers) using 3 dot spring pads. Front is bit high in my opinion (3 fingers) using 4 dots spring pads.

Let's see if the front will settle down in a few weeks. If this doesn't happen then I will replace the 4 dot spring pad with those 1 dot. Any idea what's the actual height difference we can achieve dropping the 4 dots to 1 dot?

[Vincent Hor]

Recently while replacing the front brake pads, I took the opportunity to paint the AMG calipers. Turns out that the brake pads were the same ones that were used on R129. Brand "textar" for the equivalent of USD45.

Paint used : Simoniz 800 C high temp.

1340

1341

[W202FTW]

Recently while replacing the front brake pads, I took the opportunity to paint the AMG calipers. Turns out that the brake pads were the same ones that were used on R129. Brand "textar" for the equivalent of USD45.

Paint used : Simoniz 800 C high temp.

1340

1341

Good stuff buddy

[mbsickness]

Very nice. Have you gotten any further on the c36 engine/transmission swap? I have to be honest I have been considering a C36 engine swap myself. I just get hung how to handle stuff such as ASR.

[Denlasoul]

Let's see if the front will settle down in a few weeks. If this doesn't happen then I will replace the 4 dot spring pad with those 1 dot. Any idea what's the actual height difference we can achieve dropping the 4 dots to 1 dot?
15mm. Each dot is a 5mm increment in size difference.

[Vincent Hor]

I am getting the C36 engine! I need some pointers to be sure that this engine is a real C36 and not a C280 with all the AMG goodies, like suspension, braking system, bodykit etc.

Please share with me if there are any markings on the engine block, assembler plate etc.

This C36 engine is coming from car with VIN WDB2020281F071239

[Vincent Hor]

Sorry double posting.

[Sulaco]

See if you can use that vin to join the official amg owners Club :)

[mbsickness]

See if you can use that vin to join the official amg owners Club :)

Brilliant idea!

[Vincent Hor]

You guys are just super. I have just managed to register at the official AMG Club. So this means that the car is a genuine AMG C36?

http://www.mercedes-amg.com/privatelounge/homePage/

[mbsickness]

I think you are good to go. At least the VIN indicates it started out as a C36. Just for laughs I entered the VIN of a 97 C280 that was totaled a few years back and was denied an account. Please keep us posted as to the swap. I was considering doing the same but here in the United States my car is worth just pennies and I cannot justify the cost of a C36 motor swap despite how much I want to do it.

[Vincent Hor]

I know this is W202 forum but just wanted to share with you guys my other classic a 1979 E24 635CSI.
Euro bumpers, M-Tech electric seats, rear blinds & rear air conditioner with cooler box.

1535

1536

[jc1kz]

EEEEWW a Bimmer cpe.....I hope you don't park that next to the Benzo......LOL j/k nice cpe....

[Vincent Hor]

The C280 has a 5 speed auto tranny and the donor AMG car is 4 speed. Would it be wise to stay with my current rear diff or should I transplant the C36 rear diff as well?

I am planning to keep the 5 speed though.

[Dearlove]

keep the diff that came with the 5 speed

[RemoLexi]

You are going to need to reuse everything off the C280 engine (intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust manifolds because 97' did not have EGR valve)

You will need to use the flex plate off your 97' engine as well as the wiring harness, crank sensor.

You will find that a C280 water pump is slightly different then the C36 due to the cooler at the oil filter housing.

It's all easy to swap, just make sure you swap all the electronics over from your C280. 96' had a totally different DME.

[Vincent Hor]

Thanks, RemoLexi, I checked my current manifold and it has the EGR. I will only be making use of the engine, (exhaust & intake manifold if these are possible) for this conversion.

Wonder if my 722.6 GB can handle this extra hp.

Does anyone knows what are the hp gains I could get from this conversion?



You are going to need to reuse everything off the C280 engine (intake manifold, throttle body, exhaust manifolds because 97' did not have EGR valve)

You will need to use the flex plate off your 97' engine as well as the wiring harness, crank sensor.

You will find that a C280 water pump is slightly different then the C36 due to the cooler at the oil filter housing.

It's all easy to swap, just make sure you swap all the electronics over from your C280. 96' had a totally different DME.

[Sulaco]

I think all 722 mechanical transmissions are easily capable of handling 300 hp. I've read they're rated at 400hp but I'd feel safer saying 300.

[RemoLexi]

Make sure you aren't confusing the EGR valve with the injection pump reciculation valve.

Also, I am not 100% on this yet but, remove the cam sensors and see if the upper timing covers are the same (I know the sensors are different).

[Vincent Hor]

Will check on the EGR valve & timing cover thing when installing the engine. Yes, the cam sensor has different socket. Will move this from the C280 as well.

[Vincent Hor]

Here's the C36 engine. From the exterior couldn't tell the difference from other M104 engine. However I did notice that the intake manifold is much bigger with the stamp marking 140. I have read in some forum that's a AMG plate or something but not sure if that is inside the engine. Attached a picture of that plate.

The donor Engine

1574

Picture of the said plate

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[Vincent Hor]

Engine number for the C36 is quite funny. It's been punch XXX XX1

Does anyone knows if this is normal for AMG engines. i think it should read as 104 941

I am quite concern because in Malaysia the engine number is an integral part of vehicle registration.

1576

[anf6789]

Look for HWA stampings

[Vincent Hor]

Here's more markings I found on the engine block

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1590

Also the ECU with AMG sticker. Sadly I won't be using it.

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[Vincent Hor]

Just got the data sheet from Daimler which confirms that the donor car indeed a C36.

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[John Jones Jr.]

Just got the data sheet from Daimler which confirms that the donor car indeed a C36.

1593


Nice to see, peace of mind too.

You're in business now, no excuses, fitted & running this time next week? :D

[Vincent Hor]

I still need to get clearance from the local road transport department regarding the XXX XX overlapping stamp marks on the engine number.

I estimate that would need 2 weeks to clear. Hopefully, I should complete this project before I leave for Brisbane Australa, on 25/09/2013 to visit my daughter studying at UQ.

Oh! car forums are so powerful. I had this generous offer from a nice gentlemen from the BMW E24 group in Gold Coast. Thank you Addam!

1594

[Vincent Hor]

The engine has finally been transplanted yesterday. We made use of the C36 intake manifold & ignition coils. Air pump was deleted by my mechanic. All the rest i.e. ECU, sensors, wire harness, throttle body, 5 speed auto transmission and rear differential are from the C280. Note : the 280 is 1997 and has the newer type wire harness, sensors, electric throttle etc.

Had a short drive around and note that the car take off is slower than the 280. Once past 3500 rpm, the car do pick up speed faster than the 280.

Is it suppose to behave like this or did we miss out anything? Could it be possible that the fuel injectors are partially clogged due to not being used for a long time?

Are the injectors from the C36 different from the C280? I was thinking of putting in the C280 injectors to try and see if it makes any difference. Would deleting the air pump cause this?

Quite disappointed with the out come. Suggestions and opinions from members who have gone this route is most welcome.

[Sulaco]

You definitely missed something. A C36 easily, easily takes off faster than a C280. It should be a very noticeable difference in all areas.

C280 0-60 time is about 8 seconds
C36 0-60 time is about 6 seconds

[RemoLexi]

Did you flash the ME to C36 spec ?

[mbsickness]

Something must not be right. The difference should be immediately evident. Do you have the C36 ECU?

[KrumB]

The engine has finally been transplanted yesterday. We made use of the C36 intake manifold & ignition coils. Air pump was deleted by my mechanic. All the rest i.e. ECU, sensors, wire harness, throttle body, 5 speed auto transmission and rear differential are from the C280. Note : the 280 is 1997 and has the newer type wire harness, sensors, electric throttle etc.

Had a short drive around and note that the car take off is slower than the 280. Once past 3500 rpm, the car do pick up speed faster than the 280.

Is it suppose to behave like this or did we miss out anything? Could it be possible that the fuel injectors are partially clogged due to not being used for a long time?

Are the injectors from the C36 different from the C280? I was thinking of putting in the C280 injectors to try and see if it makes any difference. Would deleting the air pump cause this?

Quite disappointed with the out come. Suggestions and opinions from members who have gone this route is most welcome.

You can start by checking the intake resonance flap and variable valve timing.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1534025-need-pic-showing-connection-m104-resonance.html

[Vincent Hor]

Did you flash the ME to C36 spec ?

You mean the ECU remap to C36? No didn't do that. Don't know of anyone over here who does it for Merc. How difficult to get that done? Any special equipment needed?

[Vincent Hor]

Something must not be right. The difference should be immediately evident. Do you have the C36 ECU?

Unfortunately but true. I have the C36 ECU. Pic was posted earlier. I can't use this ECU as the socket are totally different.
If I have to use this C36 ECU, i have to swap over a lot of things like wire harness, tranny, prop shaft, rear diff, meter cluster etc

[Vincent Hor]

You can start by checking the intake resonance flap and variable valve timing.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1534025-need-pic-showing-connection-m104-resonance.html

Thanks. Will get my mechanic to take a look at this.

[SD202]

Unfortunately but true. I have the C36 ECU. Pic was posted earlier. I can't use this ECU as the socket are totally different.
If I have to use this C36 ECU, i have to swap over a lot of things like wire harness, tranny, prop shaft, rear diff, meter cluster etc


sounds like you need to flash your ecu or swap in a 36 ecu and or make it work Also werent the c36 m104's cable actuated throttles ? not fly by wire. dunno but this could make a difference in throttle response as well. I know for sure the pedal feel is night and day from my 96 c280 ( cable actuated Throttle body m104 w/vacuum controlled 4 speed) to my 99 C43 ( 5 speed electronic, fly by wire TB ) Sure the 43 is much faster but the over all pedal feel and throttle response when i press it down is noticeably different feeling between the two. just a thought. How much do you have into this swap so far ?

[RemoLexi]

Up to 96' is was throttle cable,

97' + was wire.

You need an SDS and change variant coding to C36. You should be able to do it with your current factory C280 ME

[Vincent Hor]

Guys, I have good news. We replaced the cam sensor and the engine behaves quite well. Off the mark is back to normal. Form 4K rpm the engine races to the redline quite rapidly. From this mid RPM's the engine fells like it just want to keep going. It runs very much better. I guess a remap or aftermarket ECU will work better than this C280 ECU.

Thanks a lot for all the inputs.

[RemoLexi]

I would still keep an eye on air/fuel ratio ...

[Vincent Hor]

This C36 engine has the famous diesel noise. From what I have read in a few forums this is quite normal. Looks like I will live with it rather than spend money chasing a ghost.

[mbsickness]

Fantastic news! Although you have now opened the door for me to consider a C36 motor swap into my C280 as I was going to do a bare block swap just as you have done. I see now that it does work......decisions decisions.

[Vincent Hor]

Fantastic news! Although you have now opened the door for me to consider a C36 motor swap into my C280 as I was going to do a bare block swap just as you have done. I see now that it does work......decisions decisions.

Don't jump on the band wagon yet. A friend who has driven a real C36 has commented that my car is far from the real thing although he agrees that it is now way better than the C280.

I do have a few issues just like RemoLexi said : keep an eye in the air/fuel ratio. The engine has stalled a couple of times when after starting, air cond turn on, gear engaged and as soon as I turn my steering. Probably due to fuel starvation. Idle RPM is less than 600.

I have tried enquiring about ECU remap/flash but there's no trusted expertise in Malaysia that handles Mercedes.

Does anyone knows of a known source in this forum? From checks on the internet I found RennTech in FL who seem to do a lot of work on Mercedes. Anyone here uses their services?

Another issue is the engine temp. Seems a bit high (almost 100 C) almost all day. However it has never gone past 100 C. I had new water pump and thermostat installed during the engine swap. Clutch fan and auxiliary fan works as it did with the C280 engine.

[Sulaco]

Only way to really make a C280 act like a C36 is to swap it ALL. Engine, ECU, Transmission, TCU (if it has one), intake, exhaust, etc etc.

In a nutshell, I'd only do it if I found a totalled C36 that couldn't be saved. It'd still be cheaper (in most cases) just to fix a wrecked C36 than to swap all that crap over to a C280.

[mbsickness]

A C36 engine swap is just wishful thinking on my part. With real C36's selling for peanuts around here it is not financially feasable to take on the task. I do believe the fuel pump is different for the C36 to provide additional fuel to the engine so I would look to see if tyou do have a fuel starvation situation.

[Sulaco]

A C36 engine swap is just wishful thinking on my part. With real C36's selling for peanuts around here it is not financially feasable to take on the task.

I had the exact same plans for my W124 E320. Expected at least $2k investment into the whole project.

But then found a C36 on this forum going for just a little more, that only needed a little work. Owner never got back to me, and then I found a freaking C43 locally for even cheaper that needed even less work. Instead of having 50 more hp in my w124, I have 100 more hp in another official AMG w202!

[RemoLexi]

As a cheap cheat- I am sure Bosch offers a 4bar fuel pressure regulator ... You may need one and also try cleaning the throttle body (flap contact points) which should cure your stalling problem, also test for vacuum leaks.

100deg. Temps seem normal from all the 202's I've had.

[Vincent Hor]

I had the exact same plans for my W124 E320. Expected at least $2k investment into the whole project.

But then found a C36 on this forum going for just a little more, that only needed a little work. Owner never got back to me, and then I found a freaking C43 locally for even cheaper that needed even less work. Instead of having 50 more hp in my w124, I have 100 more hp in another official AMG w202!

How I wish I am living in the states. Car are very expensive here in Malaysia. There are only less than 5 or 10 C36's here. Hence the choice of conversion.

Another alternative would be to get hold of a set of RHD engine wire harness and then put in the rest of the hardware. I do have the rest of the AMG hardware which is the ECU, 4 speed gear box, prop shaft, rear diff, drive shafts, air cond control panel, throttle body & meter cluster.

Would wire harness from W124 E280 or W140 S280/S320 be same as the C36? Just wanted to broaden my search alternatives.

[97 SL320]

How I wish I am living in the states. Car are very expensive here in Malaysia. There are only less than 5 or 10 C36's here. Hence the choice of conversion.

Another alternative would be to get hold of a set of RHD engine wire harness and then put in the rest of the hardware. I do have the rest of the AMG hardware which is the ECU, 4 speed gear box, prop shaft, rear diff, drive shafts, air cond control panel, throttle body & meter cluster.

Would wire harness from W124 E280 or W140 S280/S320 be same as the C36? Just wanted to broaden my search alternatives.


Back dating the car will be a real mess, stick with the 97 stuff.

For a ECU, a 97 to 99 W140 S320 / 97 SL320 would be much closer than your current C280 ECU.

Remember, you have a 5 speed electronic shift 722.6 trans so to make it work you must stick with a 97 up ECU. On a LHD car, the trans ECU is located under the passenger foot board. Look for a 4" x 6" x 1" black box, the sticker will say EGS ( Electronic Gear Shift. )

The C36 has a higher number rear axle ratio so take that into consideration for acceleration as well.

[RemoLexi]

The C36 does NOT have a higher diff ratio.

[97 SL320]

Maybe I was thinking of the C230 Kompressor or even mixing the SL320 higher diff.

In any event, is our guy driving the trans in S mode? W starts out in 2nd unless you force a throttle down shift.

Another engine computer choice would be a 97 E320

[RemoLexi]

The heavier / weaker (engine) chassis, the higher the diff ratio.

In the US I found a SL320 diff, 3.69 and stuffed that into my C36.

But the stock C36 w/5-speed auto had a 3.07, and if you have a 97' or newer 202 (automatic) you can't slap a higher ratio diff, you'll flip out the Etc and go into limp mode

[97 SL320]

There may be a work around for the diff swap.

Near as I can tell, the speedo gets it's signal from a front wheel through the ABS sensor / computer. 97 is CAN bus so a CAN filter just ahead of the EGS box that looks for the front wheel speed then sends a recalculated speed to the EGS should work. Someone in England sells CAN filters for altering Sprinter miles / air bag / emission codes , with some reprogramming it should work.

CAN ( Controller Area Network , invented by Bosch ) is a 2 wire ( 3 including ground ) serial communication protocol where all modules are connected to a common network. Each message is broadcast across the network and all modules listen for the preamble indicating " this message is for you " , the module then uses the data sent to control it's process. Modules that are not programmed to listen for a specific address do nothing.

[RemoLexi]

Best way around (the way I went) was swapped the type 6 out with a manual, coded out the ETC (egs module) off the can network, and use any diff ratio I want. And yea speedo on 97' uses front speed sensors.

[Vincent Hor]

I still have this intermittent stalling issue. AFR running lean could be the issue? I am still running on the same single fuel pump from the C280. Would replacing it with a stronger fuel pump work? Which replacement pump would be recommended. Still trying to source for a 4.0 bar FPR.

[RemoLexi]

Not sure if C36 had same injectors and if you swapped them over or not. Look into a c36 flash.

[Vincent Hor]

It's running with C36 injectors. Any suggestions on who could do a re-flash?

[RemoLexi]

Dealer has to be able to .. Idk where you are located

[97 SL320]

Are you able to source a ECU that I mentioned? ( You will also need the DAS box behind the instrument cluster and ignition key as all 3 are tied together. )

By at least 97 a single pump was used, the dual pump was only on older cars.

Don't go to a high pressure regulator, you problem lies elsewhere.

[RemoLexi]

If I'm not mistaken 97' (DAS 2) didn't have a seperate ignition module, it was built in the Bosch ME, and a small ring around the ignition lock authorized K40 power up.

I may be wrong, but all he would need is a 97' c36 Bosch ME, transponder key. May also need a matching ETC module since its most likely coded to the ME (being that its on the CAN network)

Off topic, I may have a US spec 97' C36 parting out.

[97 SL320]

97 was only year for DAS X , it has a mechanical key with a RFID chip, not the 98 and up EIS Electronic Ignition System ( column lock ) fob system.

The DAS box reads the chip in the key ( RFID ) then sends a authorization message over CAN bus to the ME. If the ME does not see the auth message, it will crank but injectors won't fire ( maybe ignition too as this is controlled by the ME ) CAN speed on these is something like 83 not some standard 25 . 50 , 125. On another board a poster says the DAS message is pretty consistent.

I do know that the DAS and ME are slaved together after 40 starts, Beckman Technologies can unlock the ME for use with another DAS, but you must have a DAS and matching key to use after they unlock. There has to be some way of reprogramming the DAS as the Mercedes HHT / Star can temporary block certain keys or block them permanently. There are something like 16 key " slots " with 8 being active at one time. ( these numbers might not be correct but you get the idea )

[RemoLexi]

And there is, I had previous contact with Beckman on that issue and yes they can unlock a used ME that is married with a different VIN number, they charge $300 and mail it back to you.

You then have to install it and code it with a new current vin.

We've installed used 'locked' ME's before.

Atop of that, Beckman was able to provide variant coding for C36 and omit CAN communication with ETC. (coded my type 6 out and away)

I'm starting to wonder if they can provide coding for newer MB AMG's that never had manual transmission as well and start swapping 6-speeds into 211' e55 ect.

[RemoLexi]

And I am almost certain DAS 2 was built in with the ME. I don't remember a seperate DAS box that interlinked from key to ME. I may be all wrong though.

[Vincent Hor]

Thanks RemoLexi, FPR was the culprit! Had it replaced and the car runs fine now. Now looking for a W140 S320 wireless throttle body. The C36 throttle body is bigger than the one on C280. Would this TB make a difference on the performance?


As a cheap cheat- I am sure Bosch offers a 4bar fuel pressure regulator ... You may need one and also try cleaning the throttle body (flap contact points) which should cure your stalling problem, also test for vacuum leaks.

100deg. Temps seem normal from all the 202's I've had.

[RemoLexi]

Glad to hear! FPR diaphragm inside go bad really often.

As far as the throttle goes, you have a cable driven throttle correct?

[Vincent Hor]

The cable driven throttle is from the donor car C36 which has the same part number as in a W140 S320. Installed with the engine transplant is the one from the C280 which is drive by wire.


Glad to hear! FPR diaphragm inside go bad really often.

As far as the throttle goes, you have a cable driven throttle correct?

[97 SL320]

A smaller TB would only limit high RPM performance.

The M104 3.2 L DBW throttle body was used ( in the USA at least ) on 97 E320 / 97 SL320 / 97 - 99 S320 . I "think " the 97 C280 2.8 used the same throttle body.

I did some research on TB a while back and am pretty sure the M119 5.0 V8 has the same bolt pattern but a larger blade diameter. Comparing base gasket part numbers wold be a good test if you lack parts.

[RemoLexi]

+1^^ I've always wondered if a 119 tb would work!

[Vincent Hor]

I just check the rear diff from the donor car. It's stamped 2.87
In a couple of days I will hoist up my car and see what's the diff ratio I am currently running.


The heavier / weaker (engine) chassis, the higher the diff ratio.

In the US I found a SL320 diff, 3.69 and stuffed that into my C36.

But the stock C36 w/5-speed auto had a 3.07, and if you have a 97' or newer 202 (automatic) you can't slap a higher ratio diff, you'll flip out the Etc and go into limp mode

[Vincent Hor]

Thanks for info.


A smaller TB would only limit high RPM performance.

The M104 3.2 L DBW throttle body was used ( in the USA at least ) on 97 E320 / 97 SL320 / 97 - 99 S320 . I "think " the 97 C280 2.8 used the same throttle body.

I did some research on TB a while back and am pretty sure the M119 5.0 V8 has the same bolt pattern but a larger blade diameter. Comparing base gasket part numbers wold be a good test if you lack parts.

[Vincent Hor]

My apologies for being absent for awhile. Well I am still having this intermittent stalling issue during idle. It's quite unpredictable and only happens after a warm engine restart while the car is in gear and brakes applied.

Recently I had the car diagnosed and return a fault code "Cam sensor error" had the sensor replaced and still the same code came up. The sensor that I am using now is the 3 wire Hall effect sensors.

Now the mechanic says that problem could be the different type of sensor being used since the donor C36 engine was running with the 2 wire Analog type of sensor while the 97 ECU supports the 3 wire digital Hall Effect sensor.

The mechanic is suggesting that we need the intake cam shaft toothed disc from the 97 motor and swap it with this 94 C36 motor so that the cam sensor will work correctly.

Is this true? Please share with me your thoughts.

I have also read, that AMG did some modifications on the (cam shaft sprocket) rotating toothed disc by drilling a new dowel location to advance the timing. Therefore if the solution is to make use of the 97 C280 sprocket, does it mean that I will need to drill a new dowel location, replicating the same one from the C36 to cater for the advance timing?

What about the VVT cam adjuster? Would it be necessary to swap that as well?

Sorry for the long post.

Expert advise on this is most appreciated.

[RemoLexi]

I am not sure if there were changes made to the cams ...

[Vincent Hor]

I think what my mechanic said make sense. See below link

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1600708-96-vs-97-m104-intake-cam.html

[Vincent Hor]

Here's a picture of the C36 engine. Looks quite clean.
What my mechanic has done is interchange the cam adjuster housing from the '97 C280 to the '94 C36 and vice versa. The pic on the link of post # 100 is exactly the difference. The cam adjuster internal gears are exactly the same for C280 & C36.
I have not collected the car as yet but my mechanic has call to give me the good news that the car power has improved quite a bit. He is actually quite impressed and he has never has a chance to drive a C36.

The C36 intake cam is indeed a modified higher profile than the C280

The car should be dropped back to my home by tomorrow and I shall report and update on my findings in due course.

2171

[Vincent Hor]

I have good news to report. The exercise to swap over the intake cam adjuster has been successful. The car now drives like a dream. It idles very stable at around 600-650 rpm. Throttle response is very positive. No more hesitant throttle response. Take off is very smooth and gear changes is smooth yet quick.

The car performance is mild if driven sedately but the best part is it can transform into a beast when we put our right foot down. Such a wonderful feeling to know that the power and torque is readily available whenever we need it.

Lesson learned.

1. We can upgrade an I6 C280 to C36 with an engine & injectors transplant to have performance gains.
2. Important to understand the difference between the pre and post '97 model cam sensor and to apply the correct cam adjuster rotating disc.

Hope this would help those aspiring to walk the route of a C36 engine transplant.

[kaiwong1020]

awesome thread though...
greetings from KL too!