The Rebirth of a C36 AMG

[anf6789]

As some of you know, I have been having problems with my '97 C36.. Weeks have gone by without me driving it due to crank sensor/fuel pump problems, and the latest weird misfire. After giving up trying to diagnose it myself, I managed to limp it over to my Indy MB mechanic who had it for a week. Diagnosis, needs a wiring harness. Now its not bad like what happens with the 94-96 M104's (crumbling, ect) It actually looks really good. I trust his word, because even he was stumped for a while, and refused to take any money for the diagnosis. Found a used Harness on eBay and figured I'd give it a shot. Since my Head Gasket leaks oil on the ground and into the Coolant, I decided to do that as well. I'll be posting up here pictures and most likely pissed off rants of things not working/going as expected. I've already started the work in my garage, so far so good. I refuse to let this car die.

Valve Cover Off
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/603911_10152741167245444_1427662824_n.jpg
Painted it VHT wrinkle black, had sprayed it gold first, but wasn't digging it. the Wrinkle came out great!
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/625517_10152743567955444_1694481574_n.jpg
Got the timing cover off. Ignore the nailpolish marks after I did that realized I had to turn the engine over to TDC
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/483630_10152748441940444_1114165164_n.jpg

Got the Intake Manifold and Fuel Rail off today will post some pics of that when I get a chance.

[RemoLexi]

You need a special fan clutch tool to remove the fan, also the chain tensioner is hidden behind the alternator, 27mm socket. Make sure you know how to reset the chain tensioner, otherwise you can snap the exhaust cam in half, bend valves ect.

[anf6789]

Yep, thats why i'm taking it slow, asking you a bunch of questions lol. Definitely more than I expected but i'm up for the challenge.

[anf6789]

.....expect lots of texts over the next week haha.

[Scary-Larry]

Good for you, don't let the car die. Keep up with the news, let us know what's going on. I hope it all works out well. Is that ADT security on the car in that picture?

[taz069]

That dowel pin holding the rail on the intake side will have to be removed to get the head off. The bolt size you will need to get is the same size as the ones' that hold the thermostate cover on their is 3 of them. I went to ace a picked up a 3-4 inch one some washers and 2 nuts. Using a small deepwell socket that fits over the pin screw in the longer bolt and tighten up the nut. It will come right out well mine did. Good luck.

[taz069]

Not for sure of the special fan tool remo is speaking of. On my 96 c280 I took a 8mm allen and grinded off the short end making it about half the original lenght and with the belt on my clutch and fan came off fine. Not the head bolt's require a 12mm 12 point star,torq's like tool. Don't use the 6 point!!!!!!! Also their are spec's for head and cam cap bolt's. I just replaced all of mine to be on the safe side. In the performace section i Started a thread c280 head work. Might find some interesting points in it. Good luck. Also a valve job might be needed.

[anf6789]

thanks for the great info taz!

[anf6789]

oh and larry, that ADT sticker is a joke, i've got a hole bunch and my friend thought it would be funny, never got around to taking it off. Good luck stealing the car now though... ;)

[anf6789]

Just ordered my special 12.9 grade non-stretch head bolts. I've read some good things on them and that they relieve some of the HG issues on m102/3/4 motors.. $50 for 15 one more than needed.. M12x1.75x160mm for those wondering.. One step down from ARP but much better than stock.... I'll post up the tq procedure, too.

[Dearlove]

why no ARP?

[anf6789]

$45 vs $200 figured I'd give it a shot

[Pagz]

I really like the wrinkle finish!!

If the new head bolts are not torque to yeild will you have to re-tighten them in the short term?.

If you have enough time and patients you can rebuild your wiring harness, the plug pins should be removable with the right homemade tools,you can then strip back a small amount from the crimp pin and solder to it. the coaxial parts are alittle bit tricky but can be done and could save alot if your on a budget.

[anf6789]

Pagz The bolts are not torque to yeild. they are the strongest grade metric fastener, though. The turbo bandit guys from Sweden use them exclusivly and actually emailed me the torque procedure.. You torque it down and then warm it up cool off than torque it down the next day again... I'll post up the specs when I get a chance.. Don't mind removing the valve cover to torque them down again.. I already received my "new" used harness so hopefully it solves my misfire problems.

[anf6789]

Head Freshly removed
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/644320_10152760470075444_672509814_n.jpg
Heres the Head
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/7281_10152760469855444_1345771987_n.jpg
both before a good cleaning and a trip to the machine shop to see whats up

[Dearlove]

god the wall thickness, or lack of, makes me cringe...

[anf6789]

^^ AMG really wanted us to turbo these things! All forged everything I think it'll be ok...for a while..

[John Jones Jr.]

afn6789, watching with interest. Keep up the good work. What brand of head gasket set did buy get?

[anf6789]

Its an Elring HG Kit

Brought the head to the machine shop today for them to gauge the flatness. Needs to be refinished so had to take camshafts out.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/602102_10152764099980444_346127683_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/59744_10152764099830444_12195254_n.jpg
some parts
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/602099_10152764100060444_2041056484_n.jpg
Intake
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560116_10152764099750444_1250007603_n.jpg
Exhaust
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/528427_10152764099900444_194890986_n.jpg
one of many casualties taking the cam caps off
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/547649_10152764100120444_693106451_n.jpg

[Pagz]

I broke my 1/2" Koken Torx too when doing the cam caps they are super tight for that sized key!

Sounds like you have the head bolts sorted I hope they help the HG issues!!

[John Jones Jr.]

Its an Elring HG Kit



Good stuff.

[anf6789]

Got the bolts yesterday and test fitted them... Luckily they fit! They are hefty as hell! It seems this car had the original head gasket! Nuts for a 165k mile C36!

[anf6789]

The C36 started today!! still a bunch of things to tidy up but I didnt blow it up...yet!

[anf6789]

Well car decided to start leaking out copious amounts of transfluid from what looks like the top of the trans.... I think I may of hit the dipstick while putting the head back in....??? Maybe knocked it out of the top of the trans.....?? Kinda pissed of because this has nothing to do with any repairs I've done!!

[vixen_w202]

Well car decided to start leaking out copious amounts of transfluid from what looks like the top of the trans.... I think I may of hit the dipstick while putting the head back in....??? Maybe knocked it out of the top of the trans.....?? Kinda pissed of because this has nothing to do with any repairs I've done!!


Don't feel bad, I dunno what it is about Mercedes in general but everything whether it be an upgrade or repair, my car finds some silly way to kick me in the crotch, get me using about every curse word in the book and troll me.....

[anf6789]

Well I'm just a big idiot.... Wasn't trans fluid it was oil.... As it turns out I forgot to put the rear rubber cam seals that seale against the back of the valve cover... Luckily I only lost a quart or too... When oil light came on I shut car off... That's when I knew it was ATF!! Don't hire me to fix your car.. ;)

[vixen_w202]

Off topic, but by what logic/definition does the ECU read the car's level of oil where it gets to the point where it considers it "low"? Like a quart? I'm having oil leakage issues and between changes it usually comes on and I have to top off.

[anf6789]

I know the sensor is in the pan so when it gets below that.. I'm guessing 1-2 quarts

[John Jones Jr.]

Wasn't trans fluid it was oil....

Good to hear.

[anf6789]

Well head gasket job seems to be a success (knock On wood) but that pesky misfire is still there.. I can't see the wiring harness I purchased being the problem even though it was used..... I've come this far I guess I'll pick up the cam position sensor and give it a shot... Anyone think it could be maf or O2 sensors?? I've been deep inside this car with nothing but my bare hands.. I have the cuts to prove it... It's not getting away with this that easily... Currently threatening it with a 5lb sledge ;)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/934025_10152781671840444_1576060794_n.jpg

[John Jones Jr.]

Well, with a misfire it could be several things as I'm sure you're aware. Engine loom is all too common but, wondering is 2nd loom you got o.k.? I'd get a diagnostics check carried out first - may save you a lot of trouble and be very cost effective. lovely cars those C36's.

P.s. I've often wondered about how much the heat from the exhaust manifold (header) effects the MAF due to it's location. Wonder too would it be worthwhile relocating it closer to the inlet manifold.

[anf6789]

It's 97 which didn't have the harness degradation problems of the 94-96 m104s Indy MB shop diagnosed it as harness probably because they couldn't figure it out...

Brand new coils plugs wires.... Crank sensor as well.. Engine cuts fuel off to cyl 3/4 because it thinks there is a ignition miss... I've swapped coils and checked spark... It's gotta be a sensor

[John Jones Jr.]

Fingers crossed that you find the problem easy. Still, I personally wouldn't be overly positive about the condition of a 2nd had loom. Keep us posted on your progress.

[anf6789]

Camshaft Position Sensor is on its way.. I just want to roast the tires ;)

[John Jones Jr.]

Awaiting the good news. Rock on :)

[anf6789]

Well... No luck... Cam sensor did not fix problem... I'm running out of ideas and money...

[John Jones Jr.]

Sorry to hear that. At a very bad guess I'd be looking at changing the MAF - can you borrow one from another car? Really, the best thing to do is get plugged for a diagnostic check.

[anf6789]

$3000 and it's anyone's...

It's been star diagnosed.. Shop said it was wiring harness..

[John Jones Jr.]

Don't give up now, especially after all the work you've put into the car. Some positive vibes needed, that's all! Rock on ;)

[Pagz]

Possibly not the misfire issue,but did you retard the intake cam actuator when fitting the chain? it can be really easy to get wrong depending on how you interperate "Retarded".

[anf6789]

Pagz... Yeah I made sure.. But this problem is exactly the same as before I did the headgasket.. I haven't been able to drive the car at all because any load causes it to shut the fuel of to the cyl 3/4.. Just swapped injectors on a whim just to be sure.. No change... Maybe ECU is fried

I just want to pay someone to tell me exactly what it is.. I've run out of parts to buy.... And money... And patience...

[John Jones Jr.]

Anf, possible lack of fuel pressure? Poor pump, blocked F/filter?

[anf6789]

New pump new filter that was the first thing I changed... It's a Walbro 255lph if anything too much pressure and flow lol... I switched to the old one oem same problem didn't change so I ruled that out

[Dearlove]

i thought '97's didnt have the wiring harness issue?

take it somewhere else, all my problems were just the AFM/throttle body

whats it doing exactly

[anf6789]

you'd be correct, dearlove.

Ill start from the beginning

Car started to die, no problems before. Actually saw ASR fault light once or twice before it would die...weird
-Replaced fuel pump with walbro 255 and new relay
Car ran fine (no miss).. still died randomly and wouldn't start back up
-Replaced crank positon sensor with a bosch one.
Car started right up
A new misfire developed that was not there before
My scanner reads CYL3/4 mis and a Random miss code.
-replaced with another new crank sensor, no luck

What happens is. Start car up
Idles perfectly and will idle fine forever
Bring revs up past 1000rpm or drive it... CEL flashes (sign for a misfire) car is NOT actually misfiring (no vibration or wierd sound)
Blublublublublu, ECU cuts fuel to 2 cyls (cyls still have spark, checked) a dead miss occurs and wont stop till car is restarted

-(I put oem fuel pump back in just to check, no change)

With CAM positon sensor unplugged, car runs rich and shitty, wont misfire though.. replaced that sensor too. no luck
SDS (star) diagnosed at indy benz shop as wiring harness.... (yeah hard to believe)
purchased used one with a guarantee... no luck
-Replaced Headgasket because it was due as well as all new gaskets ect. (machine shop said valves were good) pistons looked fine as well.

Car has all new ignition components that I installed less than 6 months ago (coils,copper plugs, wires. new plugs again just to check) (bought car with a bad ignition miss due to coils when car got hot sounded like a 2step or antilag system lol, fixed that problem, totally different than my existing symptoms)
-Swapped coils and injectors, no change.
-No other codes.

Only thing that hasn't been changed is MAF and O2 sensor.

Kill me.

[Pagz]

Geez it practically a new car!

Through thorough elimination - It's got to be the MAF xD

Edit: have you unplugged the mass and tried running it without?

[anf6789]

yeah runs like shit when unplugged lol (doesnt cause the miss though, as much as i wish it did). when my maf when bad in the old C280 it would stall and surge ect.. Hey why not just buy a new one! might as well right.. ;/

[Dearlove]

i'd replace the MAF if you can afford it. just because it fixed pretty much all my problems...

Next, I'd look into the knock sensors, maybe they're giving a false reading? Or do they throw their own code?

[John Jones Jr.]

Car started to die, no problems before. Actually saw ASR fault light once or twice before it would die...weird



OVP relay fault? Had similar on my 190E.

[anf6789]

HHHHMMMM this car makes my brain hurt... alot

[taz069]

Check the crank position sensor ohm reading!!!! My old bosch had a ohm reading of 1.028, new reading 1.046 ohms. That was my culprit after doing everything you did. No maf i bought one, no cam position sensor bought one. It was the crank sensor. Pull that puppie and use a volt-ohm meter on it. Also make sure your crank position sensor wire is not pinched against the block. I did this upon my head install. I melted the casing exposing the wire inside in a area about a 1/4 inch long. I just didn't realize the wire was their. Hope this helps.

[anf6789]

Taz? what should the ohms be at? you had similar symptoms?

[taz069]

1.046+ohm. Just had another thought. You might be one tooth off on the intake cam. Did you rotate the automatic adjuster completly clockwise during reinstallation?? I made this mistake and had to talk with a mercedes tech to find out my mistake. Yeah I lined it all back up like every manual says to but they left out to rotate that adjuster fully clockwise. And mine would only really begin to run above 1200-1300 rpm. Below that it would bog and spit and sputter in any gear. Will post more in a little bit heading out the door. Got my droid on me will post agian in a few hours. Also my new crank postion sensor was being scuffed by the crank. I used a palm sander and removed the scuffs' +/- a very few thousandth's . And reinstalled runs great now.

[taz069]

The only thing I could figure out as to why my new crank position sensor was being scuffed by the crank is their was it was a little bit longer than the old one. With this said, the new one had a slightly raised area around the center metal post. Bad casting die?? 16 years of using different manufactures and different processes? God knows its not my crank bearing!!!! Let us know.

[anf6789]

Taz this problem was here before headgasket job so not worried about the 1 tooth off.. The crank sensor has a shim you may of been missing from the motor

[anf6789]

well MB dealership trip on tuesday... my wallets already empty.. can steal too much

[anf6789]

Go to start car this morning.. to bring to dealer so they can look at it....

Keep blowing fuel pump fuses, even when I bypass the relay the wire starts to spark. WTF! I guess ill rewire the Walbro 255.. this is ridiculous.

This car does not want to live.

Should've kept the Green C280

[Sulaco]

Bypassing fuel pump relay by connecting wire between 2 ports on the fuel pump relay slot is normal. My c280 did it when I fried my fuel pump relay. I drove it to work like that for a week while waited for new relay. Forgot to remove wire one night and fuel pump ran until battery died. Woops.

Sorry it's taken me so long to chime in here.

97 doesn't have OVP right? Just checking.

Here's a BIG, BIG test:
It ALWAYS shows misfire on 3/4? You've swapped coils, plugs, injectors and gone through how many wiring harnesses? Assuming that's true, work your way backwards. You swapped injectors, same, so you know they're good. You swapped plugs so you know they're good. You swapped coils and got the same so you know they're good. You swapped wiring harness so you know it's good.

What comes next in the chain? The ECU. You know for a fact all the parts that control that particular coil and those 2 cylinders are good, but it keeps getting a specific error there. My conclusion is the problem is the thing that reads the error in the first place: ECU.

ECU also sends power to fuel pump.

I'm sure you've thought of all this, but I haven't seen anywhere you tried the ECU. I DO NOT KNOW if a C280 ECU would work, but if it's anything like the other ECU's it will adapt. M104 C280 ECU can be had for a song in a junk yard. I bought a whole car for $450 and yanked ECU, ABS unit, and $2k in other various parts to fix up my C280.

You've bought the car and put so, so much into it. I know how frustrating it can be. I spent months chasing down electrical demons after my alternator overcharged and blew all kinds of shit in my C280. It had a quarter tank of gas in it but would not start no matter what I did. I had some lawnmower gas that was old and about to go bad so I just dumped it in the tank and fired it right up. Car ran perfectly, problem solved. To this day I can't explain it.

[anf6789]

dont you have to get the newer ecus coded to the key ect?

[anf6789]

almost positive the problem is the ECU if i could just drop a used c280 ecu in there id do it, but ive heard problems with coding ect

[Scary-Larry]

dont you have to get the newer ecus coded to the key ect?

I though MB only started using the electric key since 1998? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you can just get any 1997 C36 AMG ECU and get it working. If you have a keyless entry remote, then there might be a problem.

-I'm only repeating something that somebody told me in the past.

[anf6789]

id be lucky to find a C36 ECU only 199 made in 1997

[anf6789]

Off to Cherry Hill Mercedes-Benz for its last chance
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/283837_10152821656060444_363577434_n.jpg

[Dearlove]

hope it goes well :S

[John Jones Jr.]

Fingers crossed.

[Scary-Larry]

They ought to figure it out, I'm really glad you gave it another shot

[vixen_w202]

don't worry anf....if anyone can figure it out, it's the company and the dealership that services our cars.

I've always found it an odd and strange sensation to watch a towtruck drive off with my car when it was undriveable and it had to go to a mechanic.....without me in it :(

Not trying to rub it in, but if they can resurrect your car....celebrate with some much needed low :)

[taz069]

Bro I got my fingers crossed for ya!!!! Maybe all ya will need is a good mercedes scan tool check and a reset!!!!!!! Let us know.

[anf6789]

it definitely needs more low for sure, if all works out thats on the list.

The last time I drove it around the block, I forgot how damn heavy the steering was and what it was like to sit low behind the AMG wheel... Goddamn I need this car back.

Towtruck driver was drooling and asked me all sorts of questions. Wouldnt be the first and most likely not the last time I have a W202 on a flatbed, Its their favorite place!

[Sulaco]

I pray you get this car in working order. Such a rare and beautiful classic.

My c280 only had two trips on a tow truck in the 13 years I drove it.

But my c43 has had only 1... smashed and saddened :(

[Sulaco]

Updates! What's going on?

[anf6789]

HAHAHA

Sorry this will be long.. and disappointing. Though not the end of the story.. for now

well there was a large fuck up at the dealer. 2 weeks after I brought it there the service writer I was dealing with calls and says "We got it started after 8 hours of work"! I'm cutting you a break so it will only be 5 hours of labor $600. I was like WTF!! I never authorized any work besides diagnosing the 2 problems (car wouldn't start all of the sudden and of course the misfire) He goes ahead and tells me he's going to take care of me and btw did I know the car had a misfire? do I want to look into that not sure how far you want to go with this car, etc?" I just hung up the phone. This is after he called my dad and said he had to put a battery in it and some "wires, relays, and Bullshit" My dad said I don't want anything fixed please let me know before you do anything. that was last week. I went into the dealer yesterday with my father (he's been in the car business for 25 years) and this service writer was so shady. Asked me who did all the work... umm duh ME! couldnt tell me exactly what he did that would take 8 hours to get the car started other than, the techs had to "start from the bottom" because of the work I did. I can smell BS from a mile a way. He than tells me it will be another 1-1.5 for the shop foreman to look into the problem of the misfire, which magically he said seems to be ignition related!! BS!!! We replaced a coil and a lead and it still misfires so we have to dig deeper!" I left.

I called the Service Manager today and had a nice conversation with him. He was actually very helpful and he said he was trying to figure out what the this Writer was doing to my car no one he talked to knew the car was there or had any Idea about the work that was done to it!! He said he was looking into it and will make sure to call me after this weekends holiday and get everything straightened out. I told him I was not happy with these bogus unauthorized charges and thats not how it works. I said I'm not the usual MB driver (my tire lights on..just fix it..my car makes a funny noise.. just fix it, you know the type! that I understand cars and have seen the damn AMG pistons with my own eyes by my own hand!)

He was a genuine guy, whereas the Writer would respond to all my questions with "i'm just trying to help you out, you have to understand how long this stuff takes, bs bs bs bs!!!" He better, otherwise Ill just grab my car out of the parking lot and say see you later.

So much for the dealer being the last resort. The "cost" of this at the moment is $700 and they haven't even got to the actual misfire! More than the whole Head Gasket and basically everything I have done to the car has cost. I WILL NOT PAY THAT. I haven't signed anything and I know the laws in NJ.

So thats where I'm at right now. Tow the car to the dealer for a simple diagnosis and end up with even more problems. Hopefully I will hear some good news this week, otherwise there will be a news story...

This is why I hate paying people to do work for me!!

Sincerely,

Super Duper Happy Camper

[taz069]

I truely hope the service manager will get to the bottom of the issues with his tech!!! The tech is probably looking into stealing this car from ya at what he would consider a cheap price for the shear rarity of your car. If not him probably the tow truck driver. Sorry for all the bad luck.

[anf6789]

slight update, MB tried out a new Crank Position Sensor, as thats seems to be what caused this whole mess in the first place, just as a hunch. Didn't fix the problem but was worth a shot. Head tech is still looking into it and trying to figure out the problem...

Its looking bleak to me. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[John Jones Jr.]

Fingers crossed!

[Abbaso]

Any news?

[taz069]

Same here!! Any good news????

[anf6789]

its looking like the ECU is the cause of the problems. still have not gotten a definitive answer from the dealer, though and its been there for over a month, losing my patience. Thats what they are leaning to.

When I get the answer I'll decide if I will have the ECU repaired, ect.

[anf6789]

6 weeks and $480 later the C36 is FIXED!!!! I drove it all day today its fucking glorious!!

MB Service Manager said they had to fix some vacuum hoses or something which i don't really believe but I don't care because the car works!!!!

I love torque.

[mbsickness]

Congrats on getting everything sorted. It was looking grim for a while. Any other clues as to which vacuums lines were the culprits? I'm sure someone else here will run into this problem sooner or later.

[John Jones Jr.]

Brilliant news, delighted for you.

[anf6789]

thanks guys. as far as I can tell it looks like they replaced some vacuum lines. new ones to the fpr and egr valve.... Thats all the info I got out of the Service Manager. Honestly I dont know what to think, it just seems so impossible for a vacuum problem to turn into the misfire I was having after a crank position sensor change... They must know something I don't. When they would relay info to me, they way they described the misfire was different from what I was experiencing... basically this whole issue was a terrible mess and I barely remember where it started. I wish I could be of more help to future 97' m104'rs, (i hope noone ever has this problem!!) I'm just beyond glad it's fixed.

[Sulaco]

FYI
http://www.mymbonline.com/forum/214-sale-trade/54602-feeler-part-out.html#post2009658

[anf6789]

full coolant flush today, brand new MB coolant put in. next up is a Mobil1 oil change.

i remember that guy, has some good stuff listed, to bad he's in cali. i'd get some suspension stuff from him. wonder how the eyelids would look.

[vixen_w202]

full coolant flush today, brand new MB coolant put in. next up is a Mobil1 oil change.

i remember that guy, has some good stuff listed, to bad he's in cali. i'd get some suspension stuff from him. wonder how the eyelids would look.


I says you go low now. No excuses xD

Get the h&r matched sport cup kit. I loooooove it! You'll be happier than a guy hitting up.....something :)

[anf6789]

In due time...in due time...