Stock air fuel ratio

[dokotela]

Need to get some info on the standard air fuel ratio on a c230 kompressor.
Any ideas/info?

[John Jones Jr.]

Sorry, ain't got a clue. Been trying to get as much info on same car. If I find anything I post it up.

[dokotela]

this is what i have so far.........IMO its very important info in terms of maintenance

when i installed my kleemann pulley kit, power was not that grand, so we checked A/F ratio and it was way too lean...something like 17's. so i changed MAF and rechecked and it came down to high 13's touching 14's. then i went into the ecu and changed the fuel setting to rich, helped a bit but still not 100%...then i changed the fuel pump and BOOM.........10's and 11's. i have not changed the fuel setting back to normal so i guess thats the reason for it running that rich. i plan on boosting higher so i'm gonna leave the setting as it is for now. what i also realised with these cars is that your fuel pump could be failing and you might not necessarily know, there would be a drop in performance but not necessarily significant enough to notice more especially if you're not driving the car hard every day.

so a simple check of your A/F ratio can reveal a whole host of possible performance gains. mercedes definitely over-engineer their cars and products..at least cars of this sort of generation...newer cars have their share of issues...much more expensive too. they also insist on good quality parts installed in their builds...that pierburg fuel pump for example was probably failing for a long time cos there was a significant jump in performance after it was replaced.

as well my turbo build had the pierburg pumping fuel into a surge tank and 2 bosch pumps sending fuel to the rail at the front. even that pump was failing and i had no idea, except now in retrospect the car dropped fuel pressure initially on boost and then returned to normal. i had an issue with the car not running well so we changed the fuel pump first before realising that the trigger wheel had come loose of its tack welds, sorted that and the car was now super rich, running A/F's in the 9's on idle...so it needed a remap and then it was sorted. also important to mention that the engine and exhaust note changed significantly once the fuel pump was changed, and obviously the car is phenomenally more responsive as well. i changed the fuel pump to a bosch 044, which i will be using in the C23K and C23T as well...brilliant performance pump IMO....and its alcohol friendly as well so the ethanol tune is gonna be easy on the pocket.

my whole point on trying to gain more info on the stock A/F ratio is to eventually run my C23T on stock ecu only, even if i had to run bigger injectors and i believe that i'm on the brink of doing just that. i have a more than capable chip tuner, Motronix, well known in the C63 tuning circles especially in the UK, for RHD vehicle purposes and well known by Jerry at Eurocharged as well so he will have the honour of tuning possibly the first stock ecu turbocharged c230 kompressor. will let you guys know when its all done.

[John Jones Jr.]

Great info, in my case especially about the failing fuel pump. I will in due course as good preventive maintenace change the f/pump. I presume the Bosch 044 will be fine on a more or less standard Kompressor?

I've read that the stock ECU with uprated injectors & f/pressure regulator along with suitable plugs will handle 1.2bar boost from the compressor? What bar are you going to be running the turbo with stock ECU?

Sorry in advance for all the questions, this is my first S/charged car, I'm normally an n/a man myself.

[dokotela]

Haha...i know the feeling.
I've always been a NA man myself....

Bosch 044 should be more than adequate in a stock car. Well firstly with C23K I plan on running 1bar of boost. I've heard that's the limit of our chargers. In the C23T I plan on running anything from 1bar upwards all depending on the type of turbo I use....K04, K04R, Audi RS3 type, T3/T4 or GT28 like Guru-Paul...or maybe even GT30 like Guru-Ross.

It's interesting that you mention the ecu's capability of 1.2 bars of boost. Is that the boost limit of the ecu? I already have a set of Paul-recommended 580cc split spray Evo VIII injectors which I will use with the turbo. So I will simply use the additional set of M111 injectors as a secondary set and plumb them into the plastic intake of the kompressor and run them off a piggyback ecu for extra fueling if required at 1bar of M62 boost.

Another interesting bit of info is this....the E39 M5's MAF works on our 111's......hehe. Just gotta check A/F ratio the next time I'm at the mech.....it might just be a good cheap manipulation of A/F ratio for guys wanting more boost but have limitations to tuning. Will keep things updated for sure....

[John Jones Jr.]

Haha...i know the feeling.
I've always been a NA man myself....



It's interesting that you mention the ecu's capability of 1.2 bars of boost. Is that the boost limit of the ecu?

Will keep things updated for sure....

I feel a whole better that there's another n/a fan here, as I'm a bit out of my depth on this forced induction business, especially s/chargers. The more I read up on them & ask questions the less I end up knowing!

As for the ECU handling 1.2bar, it's only something I picked up on the interweb, so fook knows if that's correct. I'd have my doubts as I don't see why Merc would bother giving the ECU that capability when the max stock figure is only 0.5bar.

And please do update, with a bit of luck I might actually learn something!

Oh, another question for you. Have you done any modifications to the cams or cam timing on you compressor set up?

Cheers again. :)

[dokotela]

I feel a whole better that there's another n/a fan here, as I'm a bit out of my depth on this forced induction business, especially s/chargers. The more I read up on them & ask questions the less I end up knowing!

As for the ECU handling 1.2bar, it's only something I picked up on the interweb, so fook knows if that's correct. I'd have my doubts as I don't see why Merc would bother giving the ECU that capability when the max stock figure is only 0.5bar.

And please do update, with a bit of luck I might actually learn something!

Oh, another question for you. Have you done any modifications to the cams or cam timing on you compressor set up?

Cheers again. :)

no i have not, although manipulation of the vvt will be a far easier exercise than adjusting cam duration.
just need to get some info on the rpm at which it activates and/or deactivates...

also important to note is the fact that the toyota 4AGZE, 1600cc supercharged revved all the way to 8000rpm happily, stock. so maybe some homework can reveal a lot of potential from this little motor. i personally feel that the w202 being the upgrade from w201, after success in the dtm, were superior builds in terms of engine design so i see no reason why a screamer NA or SC cant be built. i actually contemplated taking my spare M111k motor for my W201 and building it to that spec cos of the rarity of the 2.3-16 and 2.5-16 locally.

the interweb can be a very dangerous tool.
i just wish it was as easy as adding in a set 310 degree camshafts with 11/12mm lift, titanium valve springs and retainers and bobs your uncle.....screamer!!!....lol

nevertheless they are all fun in their own ways. also another easy power gain, delete the intercooler and add in a charge cooler system, shorten your piping and you get more boost instantly...was seriously toying with this idea.....as soon the car goes into the shop, i will play a little. one project at a time though. turbo 6 is almost done, just cosmetics left. so to decide on turbo 4 or kompressor next.

[John Jones Jr.]

1091
no i have not, although manipulation of the vvt will be a far easier exercise than adjusting cam duration.
just need to get some info on the rpm at which it activates and/or deactivates...

also important to note is the fact that the toyota 4AGZE, 1600cc supercharged revved all the way to 8000rpm happily, stock. so maybe some homework can reveal a lot of potential from this little motor. i personally feel that the w202 being the upgrade from w201, after success in the dtm, were superior builds in terms of engine design so i see no reason why a screamer NA or SC cant be built. i actually contemplated taking my spare M111k motor for my W201 and building it to that spec cos of the rarity of the 2.3-16 and 2.5-16 locally.

the interweb can be a very dangerous tool.
i just wish it was as easy as adding in a set 310 degree camshafts with 11/12mm lift, titanium valve springs and retainers and bobs your uncle.....screamer!!!....lol

nevertheless they are all fun in their own ways. also another easy power gain, delete the intercooler and add in a charge cooler system, shorten your piping and you get more boost instantly...was seriously toying with this idea.....as soon the car goes into the shop, i will play a little. one project at a time though. turbo 6 is almost done, just cosmetics left. so to decide on turbo 4 or kompressor next.

You wouldn't believe what I thinking this morning. I pulled the cover off my 2.5-16 (bad photo at the top)for the first time this year, popped the bonnet (hood) and imagined an M62 sittting in there, just with nominal boost 5-7psi, allowing for the standard C/R, it could knock out 250/260bhp with the 7250 rev limit - oh yeah!

Here's one for you: How about attaching a copper coiled or snake shaped pipe to the back of the standard I.C., run water/engine coolant mix from a small rad or maybe just from a water tank with a simple 12V pump controlled by a basic/common temp. switch?
Don't laugh too much, it was just an idea that popped into my head as I reckon or suspect heat is a real enemy of our S/C set up's. Or failing that just get a more efficient I.C. made up, I don't actually mean bigger just better. I'm sure the original could be improved upon by a specialist shop?

As far as cams go, that's the last thing on my list if I ever get around to it, I'll do easy & hopefully cheaper mod's first - if I don't fook something up!

[dokotela]

I did think of that at some stage but you'd be better off with a water/meth cooling system...much more efficient IMO especially seeing that we have a lovely 5.1litre washer bottle just sitting there...lol

SC'ing the M102 would be epic...if only I had one....but I would turn it into a 4throttle screamer with modern fuel injection and run it on ethanol...already have the throttles kept away just in case of that rare opportunity should someone decide to sell to me.

[John Jones Jr.]

This is very interesting, it made me rethink about external cooling.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0527

Is it really difficult for you to find an M102 2.3/2.5-16 engine? You would get one in the U.K., keep your eyes on these sites:

www.Mercedes190.co.uk
www.190Rev.com

You are right about dumping the KE-Jet and fitting a standalone system, a single T/B system will produce around another 20bhp on the 2.5 (total 215-220bhp) with far better over all driveability and slightly improved economy too. Four individual T/B's set up can give up to 260bhp with a modest increase in C/R, I believe. I haven't done EFI yet simply due to costs as I'd need professional assistance unlike yourself you lucky man. Still I'm not too concerned as even standard with KE it's still one hell of an engine.

[dokotela]

very rare engine indeed.

[John Jones Jr.]

very rare engine indeed.

Let me know if you want me to keep an eye out. BTW, a point that may interest you, the very early 2.3-16 ('83 &'84 iirc) is reported to have forged internals and a higher C/R (10.5 or 10.2:1 against 9.7:1) than the later models

[dokotela]

i'd buy a 2.5-16 if i had the chance. heard and read too many issues with the single row timing chain....and performance-wise the extra capacity would be awesome

[John Jones Jr.]

£1500-2000 buys one, mind it will need a lot of work. Rust, SLS, worn suspension, a head job & no doubt some issues with the KE-jet. How much to ship to R.S.A. and what sort of import duties?

[adik590]

Hi. Bosch 044 is twin or single one?

[dokotela]

£1500-2000 buys one, mind it will need a lot of work. Rust, SLS, worn suspension, a head job & no doubt some issues with the KE-jet. How much to ship to R.S.A. and what sort of import duties?

Import duties are 100%
Will check shipping

[zmatt]

We don't have electronic boost controllers on our cars, due to the fact they are supercharged, so the only thing that "our ecu can take 1.2bar" means to me is that is what the MAF can reliably read.

@Dolo, how does one switch between normal and rich settings? Also have you hooked up a wideband and measured your AFR over the whole rev range?

[dokotela]

We don't have electronic boost controllers on our cars, due to the fact they are supercharged, so the only thing that "our ecu can take 1.2bar" means to me is that is what the MAF can reliably read.

@Dolo, how does one switch between normal and rich settings? Also have you hooked up a wideband and measured your AFR over the whole rev range?

Very true...which is why the E39 MAF.
The switching can be done on fuel settings. I will give you exact parameters soon. AFR has been measured across the range...that's how I knew that I had a problem after installation of the kleemann pulley kit.

What have you done to your intake?

[John Jones Jr.]

"our ecu can take 1.2bar"



Just in case you are referring to my comment, let me clarify. I've no factual knowledge of what the ECU can handle.

''As for the ECU handling 1.2bar, it's only something I picked up on the interweb, so fook knows if that's correct''

[zmatt]

The switching can be done on fuel settings.
What have you done to your intake?

Is this a physical jumper on the ecu or does it require a flash?

as for the intake, short pipe with cone filter into the super charger and another pipe from the intercooler outlet into the TB. Both 3 inch.

[dokotela]

No flash required. It's a manual option available in the ecu

[dokotela]

Is this a physical jumper on the ecu or does it require a flash?

as for the intake, short pipe with cone filter into the super charger and another pipe from the intercooler outlet into the TB. Both 3 inch.

It's found under adaptations