Which shock?

[John Jones Jr.]

Guys,

I've been on the look out for new shocks & springs for the C230K. After having a look around I decided either to get Bilsteins B6's plus springs or B12's. Then looking at the cost, not cheap, I decided to have a look at Koni & H&R. I've never driven a W202 with uprated suspension.

Koni Sport (yellow, top adjustable) €423 + Eibach springs €170 = €593/$771
Bilstein B6's €480 + Eibach springs €170.............................. = €650/$845
Bilstein B12's Pro kit (30/30mm)............................................. .€560/$728
Bilstein B12's Sportline kit (50/35mm).......................................€610/$793
H&R Cup Kit Sport kit(60/40mm)............................................. .€460/$598
H&R Cup Kit Touring kit(40/40mm)...........................................€4 30/$559

So, what do you think?

[Denlasoul]

I am using H&R Sport Springs with Koni Yellow adjustable shocks. I like the ride: firm and feels planted. I take corners fast and experience minimal effects.

My shocks are set to full hardest and can be stiff for daily driving. I use my car for general local driving and some long distance driving. Works for me. I do not think if I drove everday for 40 miles that I would like it as much.

[John Jones Jr.]

I am using H&R Sport Springs with Koni Yellow adjustable shocks. I like the ride: firm and feels planted. I take corners fast and experience minimal effects.

My shocks are set to full hardest and can be stiff for daily driving. I use my car for general local driving and some long distance driving. Works for me. I do not think if I drove everday for 40 miles that I would like it as much.

Thanks Denlasoul, you've got me thinking.

[kowalski]

I am using H&R Sport Springs with Koni Yellow adjustable shocks. I like the ride: firm and feels planted. I take corners fast and experience minimal effects.

My shocks are set to full hardest and can be stiff for daily driving. I use my car for general local driving and some long distance driving. Works for me. I do not think if I drove everday for 40 miles that I would like it as much.

do you get a harsh ride feeling every speedbump or pothole on bad surface roads?
does your car feel comfortable on long journeys?

maybe on mid settings is the best for everyday driving?
what do you think?

on softest setting is it like a floating spongy ride?

[Vetruck]

I am using H&R Sport Springs with Koni Yellow adjustable shocks. I like the ride: firm and feels planted. I take corners fast and experience minimal effects.

My shocks are set to full hardest and can be stiff for daily driving. I use my car for general local driving and some long distance driving. Works for me. I do not think if I drove everday for 40 miles that I would like it as much.


What swaybars are you running? Are they stock or larger aftermarket.

Koni's are known for being valved a little heavier on the compression stroke compared to Bilsteins. Koni valves them as a performance replacement shock for a stock car with stock height and stock spring rates. It is best to use them with a progressive rate spring (at the very least a rear progressive and front linear rate so it does not buck you in the ass on every bump). Or you can use them with a heavier front spring but keep the swaybar light (smaller stock units).

Koni's are on sale right now at Tirerack (which in 30 years I have never seen a Koni shock on sale- I am a diehard Koni fan). I have been pndering coilovers and weightjacks for this car but really do not hink now that I am going through the trouble for a daily driver mainly for the little lady- but I do drive it occationally and mainly when we go out together (ie- dinner, etc). What I am looking on doing is a C280 H&R kit (29927-1, 1.4f/1.3r claimed spec) onto my lighter nosed C220 with Koni Yellow's and a larger rear bar only (front bar will remain stock for decent ride quality- I make up the roll stiffness in the indepopendant spring rate only, and not by locking up both sides with a heavy bar that throws the occupants side to side violently on every bump).

Dean

ps- I have done very simmular setups using Koni shock, linear fornt coils/progressive rear coils, mild front bar, heavy rear bar on other types of cars with very favorable ride and handling qualities.

[Denlasoul]

do you get a harsh ride feeling every speedbump or pothole on bad surface roads?
does your car feel comfortable on long journeys?

maybe on mid settings is the best for everyday driving?
what do you think?

on softest setting is it like a floating spongy ride?

I consider the ride hard for potholes and very bumpy roads. It is due to a number of factors: 1) my car is much lower than predicted spring lowering. I would say maybe a full inch lower than listed. 2) my shocks are set to full hard. I dont believe that is much of an issue, but my bump stops are the stock height and maybe would be better to get smaller ones. Lowering has reduced the travel distance before hitting the stop, and thus likely a hard bump when fully compressed. 3) low profile tires on 18's. 35/40 series tires dont absorb bumps that well.

Dont know how the other settings feel, but could be worth trying out. For daily driving, a softer ride would be nice. Since my car is more recreational, I dont mind a firm ride.

On long rides, drives like a dream if the roads are relatively smooth.

[Denlasoul]

What swaybars are you running? Are they stock or larger
The stock C43 swaybars. I cannot remember their size off the top of my head, but they are larger than normal.

[Karlo1988]

H&Rs with bilsteins B8s... firm but smooth ride....

[John Jones Jr.]

O.k., I'll check out costs for those.

[Denlasoul]

O.k., I'll check out costs for those.

Make sure the shocks are for lowered applications. A stock shock height will wear out faster. I know bc that is how I had my car setup until the switch to Koni.

[John Jones Jr.]

Make sure the shocks are for lowered applications. A stock shock height will wear out faster. I know bc that is how I had my car setup until the switch to Koni.

I won't have any problems with B8's Delasoul, simply after checking out the cost they're too expensive and also the after reading Bilstein's product details I don't think they're what I'm after as the car will be put into action as a daily driver. Now, leaning towards the H&R Touring kit.

[Mike51809]

Whatever you do like vetruck said, keep the stock sway bars or you will be so stiff it will only slide when you turn lol

[kowalski]

I consider the ride hard for potholes and very bumpy roads. It is due to a number of factors: 1) my car is much lower than predicted spring lowering. I would say maybe a full inch lower than listed. 2) my shocks are set to full hard. I dont believe that is much of an issue, but my bump stops are the stock height and maybe would be better to get smaller ones. Lowering has reduced the travel distance before hitting the stop, and thus likely a hard bump when fully compressed. 3) low profile tires on 18's. 35/40 series tires dont absorb bumps that well.

Dont know how the other settings feel, but could be worth trying out. For daily driving, a softer ride would be nice. Since my car is more recreational, I dont mind a firm ride.

On long rides, drives like a dream if the roads are relatively smooth.

I have Vogtland springs 952079 sitting at home.
I'm going to get Koni's externally adjustable shox within a few months, I'm also using 5-front/4-rear spring pad combo.
I don't know if all these parts is a good combination for great preformance and ride quality?
My euro factory set up is great for ride quality but LESS good for performance driving!?

Getting valuable information from other people who has the same stuff koni/vogtland kit is gold for me.
Everybody doesn't have the same taste.
Question is?
Buy or not buying Koni's?

[John Jones Jr.]

Whatever you do like vetruck said, keep the stock sway bars or you will be so stiff it will only slide when you turn lol

Thanks for mentioning that, as sway bars were on the list to change at some stage. May not bother now? We'll see. Are H&R or Eibach different from the standard C43 bars?

[John Jones Jr.]

I have Vogtland springs 952079 sitting at home.
I'm going to get Koni's externally adjustable shox within a few months, I'm also using 5-front/4-rear spring pad combo.
I don't know if all these parts is a good combination for great preformance and ride quality?
My euro factory set up is great for ride quality but LESS good for performance driving!?

Getting valuable information from other people who has the same stuff koni/vogtland kit is gold for me.
Everybody doesn't have the same taste.
Question is?
Buy or not buying Koni's?

I really don't think you can go wrong with the Koni top adjustable, you are bound to find a suitable setting or even two settings - one for everyday and the other for hard driving, may just take a little time to fine tune the ideal setting. The same with the spring pad combo.

As for the Vogtland springs, they are reasonably popular here in Europe, again I don't imagine any problems, anyway they are bound to be a vast improvement on standard springs. Personally, I reckon spring brand is over hyped in cheaper or more modest price bracket. Doubt there's much different between an Eibach and your Vogtland. Buy the Koni's. The only reason I'm not is simply cost ($200 more expensive than the H&R's) and it's not just the money. I got a very cheap C230 Kompressor that I didn't need but couldn't resist so I have to keep things under control as I've also got a 2.5-16 begging for money to be spent on it :D

[kowalski]

I really don't think you can go wrong with the Koni top adjustable, you are bound to find a suitable setting or even two settings - one for everyday and the other for hard driving, may just take a little time to fine tune the ideal setting. The same with the spring pad combo.

As for the Vogtland springs, they are reasonably popular here in Europe, again I don't imagine any problems, anyway they are bound to be a vast improvement on standard springs. Personally, I reckon spring brand is over hyped in cheaper or more modest price bracket. Doubt there's much different between an Eibach and your Vogtland. Buy the Koni's. The only reason I'm not is simply cost ($200 more expensive than the H&R's) and it's not just the money. I got a very cheap C230 Kompressor that I didn't need but couldn't resist so I have to keep things under control as I've also got a 2.5-16 begging for money to be spent on it :D

thanks for your reply bro.

there are not many shox to chose over.
either Bilstein B8 or Koni's.
I think I will go with Koni's as they are a bit special with their adjustable options.

However I appreciate if more Koni-users will chime in with positive and negative feedback.

[John Jones Jr.]

Well, I have used B6's with H&R springs before and I was very,very pleased with the results especially considering they replaced perfect B4's with Eibach springs. I also used Koni Sport on my BMW 2002 and there were excellent too. So, imo there's no hard & fast rules to picking one leading brand of shock over the other.

[kowalski]

Well, I have used B6's with H&R springs before and I was very,very pleased with the results especially considering they replaced perfect B4's with Eibach springs. I also used Koni Sport on my BMW 2002 and there were excellent too. So, imo there's no hard & fast rules to picking one leading brand of shock over the other.

i've decided to go with koni's.
buying AMG shox from stealership is way too expensive!!

[John Jones Jr.]

i've decided to go with koni's.


Sure? :D

[Denlasoul]

i've decided to go with koni's.
buying AMG shox from stealership is way too expensive!!
Stock C43 shocks are Bilstein.

[kowalski]

Stock C43 shocks are Bilstein.

that's what I said, lots of greens buying from stealer.
Bilstein makes them for C43AMG

[Mike51809]

The eibach and h&r sway bars are thicker to prevent lean but with stiffer shocks and springs you dont need that, you either do shocks and springs and leave the sway bars or leave the shocks and springs oe spec and do thicker sway bars depending on what you want.. I thought the same thing though until i took my performance class at school

[Sulaco]

So I got online to check prices on all this stuff.


I can't find any brand of shock for my 99 C43 except for Monroe (which claims to be OE replacement).

Where are you guys buying this stuff?

[Denlasoul]

So I got online to check prices on all this stuff.


I can't find any brand of shock for my 99 C43 except for Monroe (which claims to be OE replacement).

Where are you guys buying this stuff?
W208 applications work too. :)

[John Jones Jr.]

So I got online to check prices on all this stuff.


I can't find any brand of shock for my 99 C43 except for Monroe (which claims to be OE replacement).

Where are you guys buying this stuff?

The shocks & springs I listed at the start of the thread are all available on eBay.de, but I doubt that's much help to you.

[John Jones Jr.]

The eibach and h&r sway bars are thicker to prevent lean but with stiffer shocks and springs you dont need that, you either do shocks and springs and leave the sway bars or leave the shocks and springs oe spec and do thicker sway bars depending on what you want.. I thought the same thing though until i took my performance class at school

That's good enough for me. I'll just go uprated shocks & springs first( plus maybe a few polly bushes in the right places)and see how I get on as I want the car to be a good daily driver.

[Mike51809]

Alright man, im hope youre happy with it. I love my new suspension, its soo flat

[John Jones Jr.]

Cheers Mike.

[Vetruck]

To give a little info on shock adjustment settings so you all have better understanding of them (I was a NASCAR Super Truck crew chief for several years and specialize in suspension setups as well as shock valving), This is why Koni yellow shocks are so much better performers out of the box than Bilstiens.

The Koni Sport shocks as I have already listed, are designed mainly for an upgrade in performance with valving suitable for a stock coilspring car. The factory coilspring rates are not that high, and as you all know these cars lean alot going into conrers. The cars do not suffer too badly fron nose dive under hard braking, but yet is still present no the less like most typical passenger car platforms.

Valving and what it does. First off, the Koni valving is FIXED on the compression side. This means that when you hit a bump anbd the tire wants to come upward into the chasiss, the koni valving for this is not adjustable. it is preset and the valving force for this is higher than a factory shock by a few points (lets give an example on points by using a scale of 1-10. 1 being faster piston speed, 10 being slower piston speed). I would give a factory shock a 2 in compression valving, I would give a Bilstein aftermarket sport shock a 3, and I would give a Koni yellow a 4. A 2-4 is quite a jump in compression valving-why? because the compression side of valving has everything related in force to what the coilspring is also holding back. If you run a higher rate coilspring, you generally want to lower the compression valving 1 point or more to maintain the same compression feel. WHat does change is roll rate of the chassis. The coilspring is what holds the ultimate angle of the chassis when in mid corner set. If a car is traveling too far in set then a heavier coil rate is required. Now too heavy of a coil rate will cause a poor ride quality in straight line travel over bumps and dips.....

What I just explained there also applies to swaybars for the most part. Where so swaybars and coilsprings differ? coil springs work in supporting chassis weight in fore & aft motion as well as lateral (side to side) motion. Sway bars only control lateral roll leverage of the chassis. This lateral roll leverage is (to keep things simple for all of you) as design feature that is for the most part a byproduct of chassis weight makeup. The engineers need to utilize swaybars to control a percentage of positive lateral roll weight while sustaining a decent forward dynamic ride quality. Forward dynamic ride is when you hit a bump with one tire only, yet the swaybar trasfer part of the force accross the chassis to the other wheel assembly designating it to help support part of the load- this dynamic transfer of load in straight line travel will upset the occupants in the cockpit. Food for thought? Upgrade the coilspings, and keep the bars close to factory specs for decent straight line ride quality. The added rate of the wheel coil will help both fore and aft load as well as the side to side so its a better choice to upgrade- ESPECIALLY when you lower the car and want to limit wheel tracel which is now reduced due to ride hieght. Need a little more resistance in that wheel coming up to hit the fender? then go with a slightly higher compression vavled shock (hence the Koni).

Now lets get into the other side of the shock motion- the rebound or recoil side of it. THis is the part where Koni shines over Bilstein. Both are very close in simularity are Knoi's lowest setting when compared to Bilsteins fixed rebound setting. So what does the adjustable rebound setting do? Rebound basically controls chassis weight movement, as well as controls how fast a bumped wheel assembly recoils back down to the ground after hitting a bump(that is it, those two things) WHat people do not realize about shock settings is that rebound settings are what "hold back" the chassis weight under hard braking forces, as well as "hold back" the chassis weight under rolling lateral forces. THe car will always travel to the extend of nosedive and/or/roll that the spring will aloow regardless of shock damper force, its just that the shock damper force will "slow" the motion so it takes longer to get to that full squat, or full corner set. A further exlination?- you take a left hand corner. The left side rebound settings are helping hold the upper chassis roll weight slowing it from rolling quickly over onto the right side of the car and overstressing the suspension- thus bobbling the chiassis in corner set. If we were looking for 2.5* set in corner steadystate, the initial turn in set the chassis bobbled over to 3* in about 1 second with the stock shock. A Koni yellow turned up full adjustment force would slow that chassis set to only 2.5* and do it in about 3 seconds- yet too much rebound setting will cause a tire to skip over the road in corner bumps and braking over bumps- yes too much rebound is a bad thning, you losse mechanical grip of the tire contact patch because the tire returns to the ground too slow. THis effect is called "jacking down". Jacking down will make a car ride very rough over bumpy pavement like the second poster here described.

The beauty of adjustable Koni yellows? you can taylor the ride all the way down for daily driving where it acts alot like a Bilstein (yet Koni is a little higher in compression valve and is more suited for a progressive sport spring rate, and the Bilstein is more for a slightly higher linear rate spring but lacks the performance adjustment of spirited driving with the slightly above stock rebound rates.
To give a comparison of rebound valvings 1-10, I give a stock damper a 4, a Bilstein a 6, and a Koni Yellow a 5-10 adjustment range.

I choose Koni Yellow over any over the counter fix valve Bilstein any day of the week.

[John Jones Jr.]

Wow, there's a lot to take in Ventruck but thanks for posting and I'll read over your comments again tomorrow to try and get a deeper understanding. I admit must, I'm glad now I haven't ordered the H&R Cup Kit (Touring) that I had more or less decided on. Thanks again.

[kowalski]

Thanks for the info Vetruck.

I forgot, are Vogtland springs linear or progressive?
They should work fine with Koni yellows?

[Vetruck]

Thanks for the info Vetruck.

I forgot, are Vogtland springs linear or progressive?
They should work fine with Koni yellows?



It all depends on what ride vs handling you are looking for.
I 've done alot of research on what is availiable for W202's

Lets start with spring basic designs, there are 3 types:
a) Linear spring rates- the rate at one inch compression remains constant. If it is 800lbs @ 1" compressed height, then it will be 1600 lbs @ 2" compressed height.
b) Progressive rate- this is where the coil windings start out at a shallow ramp and progress into a steeper angle aseach wind of the coil loops towards the top. The premise of this spring is to make the rate increase as the spring compresses. The bottom shallow wind will coilbind the further up it compresses and it "gradually" gets into a firmer rate
c) Dual rate /or Compound Springs. They have one section of shallow angle winds, then sharply go into the upper secton of steeper (stiffer rate) winds. There is a bump there you will feel if the weight is not correct.

Lets lok at the manufactureres for these cars

H&R- front progressive/rear progressive
Vogtland- front dual rate/ rear dual rate
B & G- ?/? I think they are dual rates I can not confirm either
Koni- front linear/rear prgressive? I can not confirm rears
Eibach prokit- front linear/rear progressive

Here's the problem alot of you are facing. You are putting much larger and heavier wheels onto the car than the engineers designed. Then, you are lowering the car so as to limit the suspension travel- most of you are doing so for looks and need to keep the heavy wheel rom flying upward and impacting the tire against the fender. There is not alot of honestly, AND alot of naiveness floating around car forums as to "my ride suck with this, or my ride is great with that, or too bumpy, or too harsh, etc etc.

You want light weight period for good ride quality. What happens with dual rate springs is they work ok when suited to a properly weighted car with stock wheel assemblies a decent performance shock- but put a heavier wheel onto there and start hitting bumps and the softer rate section of the spring rapidly hits coilbond becuase the damper can not support slowing the heavier wheel motion. Alot of these setups are now boucing off the bumpstops to rely on not grounding against the fender. Next combine this with someone who puts a heavy speakerbox in the car, or 3 friends, and half their bedroom of clothes etc and then do not understand why the car drives like crap because it can not hold the weight- they then put a Koni yellow onto it thinking they are going to better control the chassis and max out the sttings. The spring already is soft and jacks down on each bump because the high rebound damper does not release it fast enough- you then further stress the front spring rate under braking and cornering with all the friends in the car and the speaker box going and the outside front wheel gets overloaded onto the stiffer sectionof that srping rate which is fine in rate, but the problem now is the rate came in TOO LOW of a ride height and you are jacked down and bumping off the bumpstops without the suspension releasing fast enough either- its just a mess- I see this kind of stuff all the time and people have no idea why their car rides so terrible- they blame it on the shocks being harsh and go back to another softer brand thinking its actually firmer but is not holding the suspension down in a bad zone.

To answer the question of Koni's and Vogtlands? yes if you use the correct spring pads to keep the travel off the bumpstops, and you leet the rebound adjustment on the lower side so as to be able to utilize the softer extended section of the spring dual rate design.

Linear fronts are great, but in the case of Eibach, I know for a fact they use much higher tan stock spring rates- you combine that with a higher compression rate Koni Yellow and the ride becomes much firmer up front, especially under brake 7corner entrance load. You have to do this without adding a larger swaybar up front. Otherwise going to this setup and a Bilstien with is slightly less comprssion valved, you may need a little larger front swaybar to get the same handling but will have a worst ride quality with the larger bar. The Eibach and Bilstein with the stock front bar will probabably give a great straightline drive, but you will still get roll motion into the corner. I value cornering ability of a car.-why?- cornering abilty translate into vehicle safety in emergency situations- same goes for braking.

The best type of spring up front is a linear spring. The correct rate linear spring matched to the shock valving. As I stated in a post prior, you slightly up the spring rate? you had better then slightly decrease the bump rate of the shock becuae they go hand in hand- the car's weight certainly is not changing so if you put a firmer rate spring on a car and leave the shock compression dampering alone, the car's effective comprssion rate in ride quality will harshen. Koni matches a lowered performance spring set with its dampers for a reason, its a balanced set. Koni is know for performance

Bilstein is now doing package deals with shocks and spring packages, but Bilsteins are still not adustable for that weekend desire for a spirited canyon run or autox event. Bilstein lack the higher rebound control rate to keep a car chasiss weight restrained from rolling into a fast corner abuptly like Koni adjustment can.

It appears that the H&R progressive rate springs are better matched to Bilstein compression valing for ride comfort. Again I am going off of questionable reviews of people in forums who may have massive swaybars, massive speakerboxes and heavy after market wheels. Alot of them think the Koni's matched with H&R are harsh- but I question what pads are they using so where is their effective suspension travel distance range? Also are they carrying heavier loads and are already deep into the progressive rate range at static ride height? We never know.

I will give a story about a car I had where I have ALOT, and I mean ALLLOTTT of experience with 100's of other cars just like it. It was an 87 Camaro I built. I know those cars like the back of my hand and to this day still help out various clubs with first hand work and alignemtn settings on their cars. I set them for the street, I set them for the track, I do it all for them on their budget.

With that said, I had this Camaro with a very light enigine in it which weight about 200lbs less on the nose that most others. I also ran very stiff linear springs up front(stock was 550 range, I ran 825's) which was a heavy rate even for the heavier stock engine guys. I also ran the very aggressive vlaved Koni yellows. My car rode beautifully and to this date has still recorded lateral g # that nobody else can touch (1.07gs on 220 tw street tires that were on 8" factory IROC wheels and 245-50-16 tires) Everyone else complianed most of the time their cars rode like crap with Konis- even with lower rates and heavier front chassis weight. They had heavy wheels, they had poor suspension geometry (this gets technical), and alot of times were bouncing off the bumpstops and overdampered with crappy tire sidewall srping rates. Yes- a tire quality makes all the difference too. Everything has to be taylored to work. By just changing a set of tires from lets say Goodyear to BFG I would have to retaylor my settings.

Its not all about what you buy, but more importantly how to set it and match it. Tires, wheels, shocks, springs, and suspension ride height all come into play and need to be married together. Every car on this board is different based on personal choices and habits.

[John Jones Jr.]

Vetruck, another very interesting post, thank you.

So, if you were in my position '98 C230 Kompressor Sport manual, that's on it's original shocks, springs and wheels ( I won't be changing the wheels and if I do I'll be still using 16'' put by 8'', so no great increase in weight). The car is 'light' i.e. no s/roof, no climate control, no electric seats etc and weighs about 1300Kg dry according to Mercedes-Benz. So, I'm going on your advise and fitting Koni Sport (yellow) Adjustables but what springs? I ask as I'm a bit confused after reading both of your posts - sorry. The car won't be tracked, only road use, with a max two people and some luggage the odd time.

Thanks in advance.

[kowalski]

Vetruck thanks for sharing the technical info.
Your fingers must ache now from typing?

Do you mean the weight of my car when you wrote this?
c) Dual rate /or Compound Springs. They have one section of shallow angle winds, then sharply go into the upper secton of steeper (stiffer rate) winds. There is a bump there you will feel if the weight is not correct.

My C43 is heavier than all NA C43's as she have all power options included which are missing on all US cars.

Maybe my Vogtland's will sag with all these stuff added to my car because Vogtland #952079 springs were previously only sold for US C43's and not for euro cars?
I will use spring pads front #5 and rear #4, this is what other blokes used with Vogtland springs on their C43's.
Vogtland drops 35mm front and rear, it will be low with thinner pads.
I don't load my car with passengers or heavy cargo, hopefully it will not sag and rub my tires?!

Maybe Koni's will be the right shock for my car.

Thanx for your help

[Vetruck]

Vetruck, another very interesting post, thank you.

So, if you were in my position '98 C230 Kompressor Sport manual, that's on it's original shocks, springs and wheels ( I won't be changing the wheels and if I do I'll be still using 16'' put by 8'', so no great increase in weight). The car is 'light' i.e. no s/roof, no climate control, no electric seats etc and weighs about 1300Kg dry according to Mercedes-Benz. So, I'm going on your advise and fitting Koni Sport (yellow) Adjustables but what springs? I ask as I'm a bit confused after reading both of your posts - sorry. The car won't be tracked, only road use, with a max two people and some luggage the odd time.

Thanks in advance.
I really do not like recommending spring rates to others since its a personal choice. I drive cars that are considered very sprorty feeling compared to most peoples taste. I also drive cars very hard and commonly very fast around corners- If it is any concellation as to my driving style (it is no means a boast, t is simply a truthful answer as to my personal needs or desires) I am rarely ever passed on the hwy- I am genearlly the guy moving faster than others- however, I try and always drive where I never have to touch my brake pedal running up onto slower traffic. I typically will pass people going onto freeway onramps around curves, etc. So yes I seek a very peformance oriented vehicle. My 94 C220- that I hardly drive- the fianceee does mainly, I would give a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being a worn out street suspension, lofty- and 10 being a full track racecar , not to see any street use) a 1. I am seeking aprox a 7-8 with this car. I would consider C6 Corvette suspension and ride quality a 7-8 on that scale in terms of comfort/handling.

Witht he above said, My 94 c220 has a very light nose on it. The 94-95 c220 take an even lighter weight front spring than the 96-97 C220 does, then the C280 from 94-97 takes an even slightly heavier spring then both of those. (ie 94 C220 is rated at 970kg, 96 c220 rated at 990kg, and the C280 engine cars front axlei s rated at 1010kg.

I have decided on putting Koni Yellows and the Eibach C280 kit onto my 94 c220- I will also only upgrade the rear swaybar to a larger one while keeping the front one stock in size to balance the lateral handling and get the car to rotate better into corners. After I insstall this kit, I will probably have to go with the shortest front spring pad to compensate for the higher ride height since this spring is designed for a heavier car. Then I will match the rear accordingly to get the same fender gaps front and rear.

I was looking to do weight jacks on the car, but seriously I do not care to do all the work to it since it will not be my main driver. It is more for the little lady to commute in daliy I do not have another vehicle for here to drive for a week or two while I have this car down doing a silly project like weight jackers on it so I have decided against it and just go a simple conventional over-the-counter route. She knows how my other vehicles all ride so she knows what ot explect when I am done with it. She is a very aggressive driver as well so I want her safe at speed with a more sport type suspension. If you drive it soft, you need a soft suspension, if you drive it hard, then follow suit.

I looked up your car and I only see a listings of 1999 and up for the 230 Kompressor cars- no 98??? I also see where the supercharger setup does add weight so they suggest the car's weight be fitted with that equal to the I6 engine C280 cars and C36. That would put your normal kit as the same I seek for more sport setup. If you were running 18" wheels with low profile tires then I would more suggest you run the lower compression dampered Bilsteins, But with the 16" wheels with a little more sidewall (more forgiving on bumps) I would suggest the Koni Yellows and the 2545-140 Eibach spring kit I am looking at for mine also. My car is suppose to have the Eibach 2532-140 kit, and the 96 c220 runs the 2544-140 kit.

[Vetruck]

I should also note that I am putting some heavier LM6 Lorinser fanblade style wheels on this car with BFG KDW2 tires on it. They will add some weight, but I do have ultimate plans for this car to be fitted also with alot lighter weight brake setups in the future. The Ceika kits I listed a few months ago are very appealing and I do plan to eventuallly go that route with this car. I have had this car an unelievable 7 months now and have hardly done a thing to the outside of it yet. I finished upgrading several things on the interior the first 2 months, then had an issue with another car the next month, and then unexpectedly "acquired" a new-to-me motorhome from a relative that I have been overhauling the last 4 months and just took on vacation last week. Its almost finally time I start getting around to this little Mercedes and start bulding the outside of it in about June- I have another month of work on the motorhome to finish it- I have been painting it myselfand has turned out rather nice I need to finish a bottom two tone in a copperish tan color and put some new roller blinds into it- then its to the Mercedes I go.

Before and after shots of the RV project

[John Jones Jr.]

Vetruck, thank you again for your time, info & advise. Really appreciated. I'm now going with the Koni & Eibach's.


Rock on! :)

[Denlasoul]

Great information in this Thread. Thanks vetruck!

[Vetruck]

Vetruck, thank you again for your time, info & advise. Really appreciated. I'm now going with the Koni & Eibach's.


Rock on! :)

First off to everyone- You are welcome. I love to teach suspesion dynamics. It's what I do on several internet forums and have lots of local people I mentor in this stuff. matter of fact, last night an old friend called me telling me the local racetrack opened back up (Toyota Speedway) after a few years closure and was asking if I am on a team up there- he just offered me a position running a new team. The owner of this team is the primary owner of HPTuners.com- I will meet with them in 2 weeks and we will see where that goes- just another life's adventure.

JJJ- Looking at the specs of your car, and putting your choice of componants (the Eibach ProKit # 2545-140 which is made for your car, combined with Koni Yellows) I would put your choice on my scale of 1-10 ( 1 being my wornout stock suspension c220, 3 being your car brand new suspension (I know what your car is like new- however I do not know its current statis), 7 being a C6 vette, 10 being a full blown racecar suspension set for track use, lets say a lightened Katech vette with cage on Motion Coilovers), I would rate your car with this setup at about a 5-6 based on what you set the rebound damper at. It will be a bit more agressive than a new 63amg in ride quality in sport mode. I would put the AMG63 a soild 5 in comfort/handling when it is in sport mode.

Note that this is the best way I can give you a "what to expect" comparison on road feel. Most people that own an AMG63 run around town with active handling engaged and drive the car in a mode that is more like a 4 so I would rate the car a 4-5 on the scale because the mode can change its ride feel. The Koni's are an agressive valved shock, and the Eibachs are a higher spring rate than what you have stock. You also most likely have a little larger than normal factory swaybars being the Sport model, so worst comes to worse you might have to find a smaller front bar if the front rate is a little too high for your confrot level- but what I am suggesting is merely a guess. Putting springs on a car is always a crap shoot with anything- especially when manufacturers do not list their spring rates. Alot of what I know about the Eibach Prokits comes from what has been learned in other vehicle applications of them- SO my answers here are a speculation of those other vehicle experiences.

I just like the linear front springs and progressive rear spring setups of the Prokit. The rear progressive rate keeps a little forgiveness in the rear from bucking you in the seat going over bumps in the road- it also yeilds a lower "release rate when you brake hard and unload the rear chassis weight towards the front of the car. If the rear springs upon release (or lift) are progressively less rate than what a linear sprng is, it will not throw weight forward as much which helps keep the rear of the car planted and not raked forward. Porgressive rear will help more promote the rear to stay a tad more squated and the chassis stay more level. This is my theorey I have accomplished on may vehicles I have setup this way and it has always worked for me.

[Vetruck]

Here is a shot of my daily driver I was screwing around on a little autox track with late last year. This truck has a very stiff setup that is built for hauling payloads- it will carry 3000 lbs no problem in the bed- AND is lowered down- trucks are not suppose to do this AND carry weight. With that said, it is still on a leafspring rear suspenion which is very uncomfortable when driven lightly while empty. it is fine if it is always driven fairly agressively. I would rate this truck as for ride quality in stiffness an 8 on my 1-10 scale. Again, this is what I am used to and drive daily. Just so you know who you are getting an opimion from and a visula of a vehicle on my scale. You can see how ridgid this truck is being an 8- it has more handling and less comfort. Keep in mind that is a 5000 lb mass of metal you are seeing act that nimble through corenrs. I run 8 ( 2 shocks per wheel)custom dampered shocks on it to control the weight so it can do what you are seeing.

http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/2012-racing/cscc-september-ax-s/mvi-0195.html

Here is a good friend of mine with a $175K street Katech Vette (not quite a racecar, but more than a C6 Z06 stock Vette by far). This suspension is very stiff for a street/occational track corvette and compromises ride quality for handling. I would rate Tommy's car an 8 also because it lacks comfort. Yes I beat Tommy in my truck that day- it kindof humbled him. I when there teaching him how to drive his car.
http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/2012-racing/cscc-september-ax-s/mvi-9842-broadband.html

[John Jones Jr.]

I would rate your car with this setup at about a 5-6 based on what you set the rebound damper at.

I was wondering this exact point. Should I start off with a half to full turn when adjusting the rebound initially as per Koni's advise? Knowing me I be adjusting them all the time and still unsure what the best position is. Of course what won't help me is the great variations in the different roads I use regularly - from smooth, straight & wide to narrow, bumpy & twisty.

I know Vetruck I'm asking a lot & don't expect you to have all the answers, an opinion would do just fine :D

Cheers again.

[Vetruck]

Forget Koni's advice on that. Start off with the rebound on full soft setting. it is probably what you will use 99% 0f the time unless you go out for a little spirited canyon drive. The beauty of konis also is even if you do not use the higher settings, as they age you can dial a lttle more damper back into them by upping the adjustment knob.

I have had many sets of Konis on various cars. One in particular was my old IROC type Camaro. it was the ex wifes daily driver and she would run around town everyday with it 3/4 turn up from soft 2 5/8 turns total adjustment). I would go somewhere I would just pop the hood and quickly up them to 2 full turns. I took that car to track events on rare occations and would run them on full firm for autox and time attack type events to reduce body roll most effectively, and long tracks I would leave the fronts on 2 turns and up the backs to #2 of the four 0-3 click settings. Autox I would run #2 rear also, the ex I would leave it on #1 (#0 being the softest).

it is all based on the individual car. But definately just start with them completely dialed down. Go drive it that way for at least 100 miles and get used to the feel before you mess with it any seeing how they react compared to stock. then for the fun of it go dial them up half way and drive it for about 10-20 miles- you may leave it, you may try full next, or you may get 1 mile and stop- pop the hood, and dial them back down to the lowest setting and say thats good enough for me. The shocks on full soft are definately going to feel a heck of alot more in touch with the road then the crap you have on their now- that's why I say you should just start with them full soft so you see you have alotsportier and in touch with the road feel than the crap stock units. Adding more rebound is mainly about cornering and braking needs. getting chassis movement more than you like? then up them a 1/4 or a half turn and go try it again. Too much rebound will start to make the tire contact patches skip on uneven surfaces under hard braking- that is thre real test. Alot of rebound will make the car chassis follow the road. the car will not loft over freeway bumps it will stay contured to the road at speed. The more the rebound, the more this feeling.

For the most part there is no right or wrong setting, there is personal choice of comfort vs handling. Wrong is anything high enough to make the tires slide under hard braking over bumps- if you try this you will definately know what I am talking about, you will feel it. It will probably only do this under extreme braking conditions on the highest setting range. I promise you that you will try the highet setting, but after that curiosity you will never drive the car around town on surface streets on the highest rebound setting ever= unless the shocks are 20 years old. 98% of the milage the average person puts onto a Koni Yellow on a street car will be between 1-5 settings on a total of 1-10 possible settings (10 being full firm if you could out a label on the dial range- rear shocks on my Camaro are a 4 position click settings, fronts where struts and had a dial range without individual clicks, you just counted the turns and put the other side equal in turns from low to high.)

A picture of my Koni's on my old Camaro-

[John Jones Jr.]

I think that has answered my question. :D I might not take in all you have said over the last several posts, well for sure not in one go anyway but it's still being enlightening and your posts will be good reference points for me & no doubt others.

There's nothing more I can say other than a big thank you, Vetruck. Maybe sometime you might do a thread on anti roll bars (sway bars) and other parts of the suspension system like poly bushes etc?

Wishing you well,

Cheers,

John.


P.s. I meant to say, yes my C230K Sport is a 1998 (Euro model) and yes my suspension at present is (on your scale of 1-10) -2!! :) And keep us posted on ant updates on your C220.

[thegame]

I just installed eibach and bilstein sport shocks and I don't feel that much of a difference from my OEM sport suspension in terms of comfort. The OEM sport suspension on the c280 sport where harsh to begin with but still civilized. The same goes with the eibach and bilstein sport shocks, the car is alot more solid now, it feels like you can drive forever it just eats the miles up. in terms of cornering it is better then the OEM sports but not by much. Also alot more responsive and it feels like the car is telling you where the wheels are (this could be do to it been lowered). The only thing that I dont like is that the rears dropped more then the front. I well have to buy #3 spring pads so I can raise it up about 1.5cm .

[John Jones Jr.]

I just installed eibach and bilstein sport shocks and I don't feel that much of a difference from my OEM sport suspension in terms of comfort. The OEM sport suspension on the c280 sport where harsh to begin with but still civilized. The same goes with the eibach and bilstein sport shocks, the car is alot more solid now, it feels like you can drive forever it just eats the miles up. in terms of cornering it is better then the OEM sports but not by much. Also alot more responsive and it feels like the car is telling you where the wheels are (this could be do to it been lowered). The only thing that I dont like is that the rears dropped more then the front. I well have to buy #3 spring pads so I can raise it up about 1.5cm .

Good to hear.

My car is also a Sport model and is currently on OE suspension and it too is harsh but corners pretty good with somewhat less roll than I originally expected (only have the car three weeks) and the back is also lower than the front too.

[Denlasoul]

I well have to buy #3 spring pads so I can raise it up about 1.5cm .

http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?147-spring-pads

Aint gonna happen, even if you are not using spring pads. :(

[thegame]

http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?147-spring-pads

Aint gonna happen, even if you are not using spring pads. :(

why would not raise. my original rear pads are #1 just 8mm. when I put #3 it would be 18mm.

[Denlasoul]

The difference between 1 and 3 is 10mm or 1cm, not quite 1.5cm.

One way would be to doube stack the pads, I remember some Members doing so. Not sure how that worked out though.

[thegame]

yea I noticed that after I wrote your responds. but in my head I was thinking that my wheel gap now on the rear is about 5mm so if I add 1cm it would 1.5cm. Double stacking the pads it wouldn't be a good idea. I thing that even though there is a lot of pressure there still is the possibility of them rolling/sliding on each other.

[Sulaco]

Jesus, Vetruck. My head is spinning. I consider myself a relatively smart guy, but you just made me dizzy with all the info you just dropped!

I drove an all-original, all-stock 1994 C280 on factory bilsteins for 13 years and 250k miles and thought the handling/ride were great! Now, I'm in the C43 and the suspension is pretty worn out but it feels like a "race car" by comparison. I know I hit some interstate on/off ramps a good 15mph faster than I could in my old C280, without even a slight squeel.

[Vetruck]

Jesus, Vetruck. My head is spinning. I consider myself a relatively smart guy, but you just made me dizzy with all the info you just dropped!

I drove an all-original, all-stock 1994 C280 on factory bilsteins for 13 years and 250k miles and thought the handling/ride were great! Now, I'm in the C43 and the suspension is pretty worn out but it feels like a "race car" by comparison. I know I hit some interstate on/off ramps a good 15mph faster than I could in my old C280, without even a slight squeel.

I guess it's all perspective. i bought this car for simple prestige- Something a little more classy for the lady and I to go out in to dinner and such so I did not have to lug her around in one of my noisy sports cars. I would not consider a Mercedes a decent handling car at all. I consider them a decent riding car, but not handling- they are engineered for luxury.

The Eibach package and Konis alone should make even a 230 Sport model feel like a station wagon, never the less this crappy little C220 trying to stay on the road in a corner. I have mentioned on here before in another post that I have even tracked a few AMG63's and they are even trerrible in foactory form. most cars sold to the public are set up for the typical old lady driving down the freeway. If the cars were set with better reactive rotation and alignment specs, the typical sunday driver would ass around the rear of the car in a panic situation and hit something sideways or backways. All of the DOT safety standards (airbags, crumple sones, etc) are prety much designed for the occupants to take a frontal impact for the safest crash situation. Thus, they make the car tight in blance from the factory so as not to react to fast steering imputs.

You want a car that handles? you have to tweak these setting and balance the chassis to better balance and geometry.

Just be glad I have not gotten into discussing roll centers, instant center migration,and yawed roll axis. I could teach most of you this for several years and 99% of people never fully grasp the skills it takes to put the proper imaginary image in their head to see it. I am one of those 1 in a million- its partially why I was a NASCAR crew chief on a Supertruck team- I can figure this stuff in my sleep. Don;t ever feel bad not understanding this stuff, most racing teams never fully do.

Dean

[John Jones Jr.]

So I received the Koni Sport (Yellow) adjustables this morning & fitted them. Went for a test drive (20 miles) on various types of roads. There is a massive difference in the cars handling and it's not harsh but well planted. I can take some bends 10mph faster without even trying. The posture of the car is better too, the back is almost level with front now. Delighted so far.

One downside and a bit of a disappointment is that you really can't adjust them on the car contrary to what I thought. The problem is you need to access a very small button on the top of the shock body but once the dust cover/gaiter is fitted you've got no access. So, it's shock out time to change the settings unless I get rubber gaiters that will retract easy enough up over the shock body. For now there're set at position 1 out of the three setting 0-1-2. This could possibly change when I get around to doing the springs.

Springs next.

[kowalski]

do you have an adjustable hat ontop of the shock rod?
like this shock seen in the link
http://www.ebay.de/itm/K392-KONI-Sport-Stosdampfer-HA-fur-Mercedes-C-Klasse-W202-Lim-T-Modelle-inkl-/300688745682?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item46027224d2

take some pictures of your shox on your car.
show me that small button.

do you hear more cabin rattle inside your car from these shox?

how is the ride comfort?
did you lose that famous MB ride feel?

[John Jones Jr.]

Sorry, didn't take photos and if I did now all you'd see is a new shock fitted like any others. To show you the button I'd have to remove the shock, see my last post.

No they don't come supplied with the 'hat', they come with a plastic disc (I'll photo that later) which is only fitted when adjusting the shocks.

No issues with cabin noise/rattle and ride comfort is perfect if slightly harder but not crashy - controlled is the best way of explaining it. Actually, the shocks have now shown up another problem, my l/h/s LCA bushes are past their best.

[kowalski]

these shox below for C36/C43 might have a different construction without that misplaced stupeed button?
If you can't axxess that button when the dustcovers are put back in place, what's the point having it there?
What does manual say about this button?

Koni gelb einstellbar 8041-1315SPORT FRONT
Koni gelb einstellbar 8041-1316SPORT REAR

[John Jones Jr.]

The manual (only diagrams, no words) just shows that the button is located at the top of the shock body covered by a plastic disc and a metal cap, remove the cap & disc, press the button, turn the adjuster disc at the very top of the shock and you can then adjust the shock to the next setting. Of course in reality it's not as simple as that even disallowing for the fact the shock gaiter is in the way. Even if the gaiter wasn't fitted this is what you'd have to do.

1. Undo both 17mm lock nuts on top of the shocks.
2. Remove the top rubber mount as that will interfere with the 'feel' for adjustment.
3. Place adjustment disc on top of shock, so you can turn adjustment, that's if you can turn it as there's very little room (see photo)
3. Get somebody else to press the button while you turn the adjustment knob, might be able to do the fronts without assistance but there's no hope on the rears.


Having said all that, I can't see myself adjusting them more than once or twice so it ain't really a big issue, just annoying.

I was out in the car this morning and now I'm thinking I may re-adjust them back to '0' rather than the current setting '1'.

P.s. the photo showing the shocks with the round adjustment knob is a generic photo. I think if you are replacing MacPherson struts there come with the round knob as the struts are located to chassis with an independent top mount.

[kowalski]

how do you know you got no 1 or no 2 settings on front or rear pair?
is there a stop on each step 0 - 1 - 2?

if you have chosen your setting and you're happy with it, there's not necessary to go back and forth with different adjustment settings as you need to remove cover/gaiter everytime?

Did you have to re-use your old plastic dustcovers from your old shox and put them on your new shox?
don't know the exact name for this cover, it's on the top part of the shock, highlighted in black

[Vetruck]

Good morning guys. John, The shocks you have are the 26 series Koni's(the less expensive but better performin and lighter unsprung weight "monotubes"). Koni also makes a twintube sesign which is the 80411 part numbes. Te twintube is the shock with th upper dial knob rather than the removal and depress button mechanism, but as stated, they are more expensive, heavier, and overall a slightly inferior performance design. Knoi makes that series simply for the person that wants ease of adjustment.

I have the Monotubes coming-Just like what you have. The twintubes are more suited for the weekend lazy person that wants to autox his car, but then drive it to work all week so the dial is good for the average joe that does not want top perfromance and mainly does not want to get his hands dirty. The monotube will givve you better valving performance since it is a high pressure single large valve disc design. The Koni twintube is unique over other brands conventional twintube styles as that Koni uses separate valve disks (yes two separate places- one for rebound, and one for compression0 where everyone else uses on small one that tried to handle both vavle passages. The twin tube desgin has an internal tube that is very small in diameter so you can not have adequate vlave ports for both on that small disk- but other brands do it anyways. This causes alot of pressure on the fuild so it heats up more and foams very easy. What Koni did is made the shaft disk the rebound disk(with a vertical inner adjustment rod to the top of the shaft- hence the white dial), and then they put the other compression valve disk at the base of the shock where the shock oil exits the inner tube and enters the outer tube. This design is heavier because of two tubes and two disks and the thicker innerrod and outer shaft, It also only allows for a low pressure nitrogen charge so it does foam still on very agressive raod course use.

The monotube has a large open oil capacity and a very large single "dual porting" disc that is adjusted by turning depressing the button and turning the shaft which spins the disc internal more open or closed on the rebound passages. Its a a better design that allows the use of an absorbtion HP nitrogen porton inside the bottom of the oil chamber to keep the oil under pressure so as not the foam- the HP nitrogen also acts as a damper internally to help take away fast movement harshness- in a sense it acts like the more asdvance 4-way shocks a little bit (but just a little- this is more advanced to explain and not viable for us so I will spare the details)

You have the better Koni shock on there, the 26 series

[kowalski]

Good morning guys. John, The shocks you have are the 26 series Koni's(the less expensive but better performin and lighter unsprung weight "monotubes"). Koni also makes a twintube sesign which is the 80411 part numbes. Te twintube is the shock with th upper dial knob rather than the removal and depress button mechanism, but as stated, they are more expensive, heavier, and overall a slightly inferior performance design. Knoi makes that series simply for the person that wants ease of adjustment.

I have the Monotubes coming-Just like what you have. The twintubes are more suited for the weekend lazy person that wants to autox his car, but then drive it to work all week so the dial is good for the average joe that does not want top perfromance and mainly does not want to get his hands dirty. The monotube will givve you better valving performance since it is a high pressure single large valve disc design. The Koni twintube is unique over other brands conventional twintube styles as that Koni uses separate valve disks (yes two separate places- one for rebound, and one for compression0 where everyone else uses on small one that tried to handle both vavle passages. The twin tube desgin has an internal tube that is very small in diameter so you can not have adequate vlave ports for both on that small disk- but other brands do it anyways. This causes alot of pressure on the fuild so it heats up more and foams very easy. What Koni did is made the shaft disk the rebound disk(with a vertical inner adjustment rod to the top of the shaft- hence the white dial), and then they put the other compression valve disk at the base of the shock where the shock oil exits the inner tube and enters the outer tube. This design is heavier because of two tubes and two disks and the thicker innerrod and outer shaft, It also only allows for a low pressure nitrogen charge so it does foam still on very agressive raod course use.

The monotube has a large open oil capacity and a very large single "dual porting" disc that is adjusted by turning depressing the button and turning the shaft which spins the disc internal more open or closed on the rebound passages. Its a a better design that allows the use of an absorbtion HP nitrogen porton inside the bottom of the oil chamber to keep the oil under pressure so as not the foam- the HP nitrogen also acts as a damper internally to help take away fast movement harshness- in a sense it acts like the more asdvance 4-way shocks a little bit (but just a little- this is more advanced to explain and not viable for us so I will spare the details)

You have the better Koni shock on there, the 26 series

are these inferior
these are the only for C43.
8041-1315SPORT FRONT
8041-1316SPORT REAR

[Vetruck]

how do you know you got no 1 or no 2 settings on front or rear pair?
is there a stop on each step 0 - 1 - 2?

if you have chosen your setting and you're happy with it, there's not necessary to go back and forth with different adjustment settings as you need to remove cover/gaiter everytime?

Did you have to re-use your old plastic dustcovers from your old shox and put them on your new shox?
don't know the exact name for this cover, it's on the top part of the shock, highlighted in black

Koni 26 series have a very noticible click each time the rebound adjuster moves. Koni's settings are 0-3. THose settings have individual clicks that the button will pop back out each time for each of the 4 setings. (don;t ask me why Koni uses "0" as one of the four settings but that's what they start with. 0, 1, 2, & 3- 3 being firmest of the rebound setting.

You need to remove the shock for adjustment, not just remove the dust cover- so the use of rubber boots is unnecessary. You have to push downthe button firmly and spin the shaft inside the body to the left or right to the next click. The button will pop back up at the next setting so if you need to go further you then have to push the button again each time- it only allows you to move the adjuster once click each time you press the button. What the button is doing is holding the outer disk in position as you turn the shaft which connects to the inner disk. It is alot like the buttons you press on a skill saw to hold the blade from rotating as you wrench the center nut off. Other wise the nut pins with the blade when you try and turn it. The Koni buttom holds the disc like the saw button holds the blade.

A little tip is you can make machined bottom pins with clips to hold the base of the shocks in place for quick release insteadof bolting them in place. We do this on the racecars very commonly. I had these on my NASCAR Supertruck so when I needed to pull an entire coilover for a spring or damper change I could do it rapidly. there can not be slop in the pin though or you will hear them all rattle and knock on every bump. Youc an bolt on the top eyebolt and never have to take that off, just undo the bottom shock mount.- however, that's me because I remove the black plastic dust cover boot so I can press the buttom without removing the top mount and having to pull that crappy thing out of the way. Koni uses that to help keep forgein debris of the shcok body top and the seal. I live in sunny Southern California where we do not get snow conditions and thus salted roads- this is very corrosive so they make those protective boots for situations like this- its a worse case senerio thing to hve those boot covers on there. Here is my old Camaro I ran 15 years without covers on them

[Vetruck]

are these inferior
8041-1315SPORT FRONT
8041-1316SPORT REAR

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being best- those are an 8 whereas the Koni 26 series are a 10 in performance level. Most twintube designs I discribed are a 3-5 on that scale. Koni makes a far superior twintube, but it still in not a good as a monotube

[Vetruck]

The Koni Monotubes for our cars are part #'s
26-1575sport
26-1576sport

[John Jones Jr.]

Vetruck, indeed they are 26 Series Koni's . I wanted monotube shocks regardless of the brand due to being so impressed by the Bilstein B6's I fitted to the 190E 2.5-16 many years ago. So, I'm not overally upset that I have to remove the Koni's to adjust them. Thanks for your input in the above post and also thanks again for your earlier advise and endorsement of these Koni's.

One thing Vetruck, the car is driving so well with the standard Merc Sport springs I'm wondering how much difference a set Eibach springs will make? Any views?

[Vetruck]

You are welcome- I mentioned to the forum I am a suspension guru- you guys are starting to reap the benefits on having me around here. Just wait until I learn this car more and more the more I tinker with it over the years :)

I would probably not suggest you go to the Eibach setup with the Konis because Koni has a more agressive compression valving that Bilstien does. That makes up for dyanmic spring rate in compression movement of the shock, but not dynamic "set" of the shock. Once the spring has compressed in steady state of the corner, the shock damper force goes away when it is under "dynamic- static" load so thus it is only the spring rate holding the roll of the car at that point.

But as for straightline ride comfort, it will limit the travel of a softer spring so as not to bottom out a wheel travel like a lsesor valved shock will do like Bilstein. It is all in feel. The Eibachs will definately make it ride harder with the Koni's as opposed to the Bilsteins, but the Bilsteins also do not have the agressive rebound settings that make the koni shine in cornering chaiss weight control. Koni's are geared to be used out of the box with lower spring rates than Bilsteins


Why I am telling you this is because I see you already stated you want to back the Koni Rebound settings back to "0". If you think the ride is too hard right now then you will not like the Eibachs

[John Jones Jr.]

It's not that I think the ride is too hard, as per my other posts I'm driving a different car since fitting the Koni's. I'm just looking for a good compromise (the impossible!) thus, I was thinking of resetting to '0' and leaving the springs standard. And as I'm on a budget the 200 bucks for springs would go a long way towards other bits. What am concerned about is, if I keep the Merc Sport springs will the car be undersprung for new shocks? Hope that makes sense.

[Vetruck]

No is not under sprung. The rebound setting holds the shock from extending, thus it controls two things
1) body pitch & roll. The chassis weight of a car braking and/or going into a corner will roll over the fronts (braking) on onto the outside wheel (cornering) what rebound does is holds the rear shock from extending under braking, and holds the inside shocks from extending as the body roll away from them extending them. Rebound helps cornering.

What happens if you go too high with the rebound settings is a) you can start to left too much pressure off the rear tires and cuase them to skid, and b) you can have too much force as to not allow the wheel to return to the ground and thus "jack down" the spring if it is too soft for the setting and not returning the wheel to the ground fast enough {this last part is also "2)" }

More on 2) the more the spring jacks down, the more efective rate height the coils are and thus rate increase when slightly more compressed. It will feel like a stiffer spring rate and thus the tires will start having to take the blunt of the force in bumps making the sidewalls compress more rather than the suspension doing its part. The tires taking more percentage of the load will now cause a bobble and make the car wander a little. It gets worse as the rebound setting goes up. The higher static rate of a spring, the less likely for "jacking down" obviously.

[Vetruck]

Now that you have read all of this, your head will start to hurt a little. Lets simplify it. you know understand what Rebound does, so just simpley use tht understanding of hat happens when too much and too little force is exerted with high or low settings and go dil it to where you feel its a comfortable ride. You'll know when the rebound is too high, you will feel it hit harder on consecutive bumps.

lastly, if the car is too loose, lower the rebound one click and/or raise the front one click- if the car is tight then raise the rear one click and/or lower the rear one click. The rear ride quality is important. that is what "bucks you in the ass" it its too harsh, or will casue excessive body movement if too soft. You knidof have to play with both front and rear settings together until you get a feel of how it all works. You will NEVER need to go to #3 click on any of them unless you are on a racetrack. then the front "may" go to 3, but certain the rears never will. It would all depend on how smooth the track surface is and how much lateral grip you are getting(and thus body roll) under tight hard braking corners like autox. Road rae courses will probably only still see 2 front and 2rear/ or 2 front 1 rear at my guess once the tires are hot. When the tires are could the 2 front and 1 rear would make the car tight until you get the rubber warm.

[Vetruck]

I gotta go- I can answer more later if needed.

[John Jones Jr.]

No is not under sprung.



:D:cool:

[kowalski]

twintube Koni's are they more problematic?
are they prone to leak more often?
do they have less long life performance and wearing out faster than monotubes?

now I'm getting really confused if I should go for twintubes for my c43?!
mono's seem to be more PITA to adjust if I have to remove them from the car and then adjust the firmness and then put them back on?
Ouch!

[Vetruck]

twintube Koni's are they more problematic?
are they prone to leak more often?
do they have less long life performance and wearing out faster than monotubes?

now I'm getting really confused if I should go for twintubes for my c43?!
mono's seem to be more PITA to adjust if I have to remove them from the car and then adjust the firmness and then put them back on?
Ouch!
No, they are more expensive and a little heavier, and the potential to foam if used really really hard becasue they are low pressure nitrogen gas charged rather than high pressure nitrogen charged like the monotubes. The Twintubes run about 5bar of pressure whereas the montubes run about 20bar of pressure. If you are noeve rreally driving competitve on hot days for 20 minutes straight all-out on a demanding road course then you will never fade the twin tubes. The twin tube design is merely for ease of adjustment. They cost a little more, but are actually slightly inferior to the Monotubes as I have already explained why. The 26-1575sport will fit your C43 fine- it is the same exact mount confirguration. From what I have always seen, the 8041 series "should have" the top dial adjuster, but do not quote me on that since I have never seen the W202 version. Any other Koni twintube 8041 I have seen in Chevy applications always have had the top dial setup. The monotubes always have the button adjustments.

I am big on having lighter weight suspension parts. Moving suspension parts is "unsprung weight" Chassis weight is anything resting on the springs or basically "Sprung weight. The higher the ratio you can get with spung to unsprung weight the BETTER your car will both ride AND handle...period.

[kowalski]

hey buddy
i checked with koni's website, there's only one shock recomended to my car and it's the 8041 versions, it doesn't say anything about 26 series.
8041 is easier for adjustment the other one needs more work.
for average performance driving on motorways i believe 8041 will do fine, won't you say yes to that?

if buying monotubes, what is the best adjustment for them from the first time and not having to pull them out again?
doing a 2 front 1 rear - 2 front 2 rear - 1 front - 2 rear - 1 front 1 rear?
it will cost money at the shop and take time to pull everything out again to do other test-settings

[John Jones Jr.]

Kowalski, if you get the 26 Series Koni'e set them at '0' first off. Of course it will depend on the springs you have and what your preferences are. But from what you've be saying you might be best off getting 8041's unless as Vetruck has mentioned you are going to do some type of heavy track work.

[Vetruck]

hey buddy
i checked with koni's website, there's only one shock recomended to my car and it's the 8041 versions, it doesn't say anything about 26 series.
8041 is easier for adjustment the other one needs more work.
for average performance driving on motorways i believe 8041 will do fine, won't you say yes to that?

if buying monotubes, what is the best adjustment for them from the first time and not having to pull them out again?
doing a 2 front 1 rear - 2 front 2 rear - 1 front - 2 rear - 1 front 1 rear?
it will cost money at the shop and take time to pull everything out again to do other test-settings

TO give you an accurate answer right now would be silly of me in light of that fact that mune should be here on Monday. I will stick mine on with 1 front/1 rear onlly because of my personal experience with Koni's I have never run any set with them just on 0 front or rear on any other car= HOWEVER, this is the first luxury car I am putting them on. I am stickong them on the car tright now with the car completely stock and with the stock 15" wheels and tires. The tires I have onit right now are Michelin Primacy with about 20% wear. they are a very comfortable and quite riding tire but still are poor in handling characteristics being a passenger tire. With that said, I am predcting that I will probably like a 2/2 on them until I puit the 18" wheels and tires on tthe car which yeild a firmer ride. At that point it will probably be a 1/2 but these are merely experienced "guesses". I can give you a "first hand experienced answer" in a week if you have time to wait. Once I get the springs up front and the larger rear bat then it will hopefully drop to 1/1 when the car rotates better and has less roll to control

The 8041 is still a great shock- far better than most anything else out there so you can not go wrong buying either. Compared to stock being a 1, the 8041 is a 9 and the 26 is a 10 on a scale of 1-10. I would take the twintube Koni over the Bilstein HD any day of the week- and you can quote me on that. Bilstein is diehard monotube design-whu? because Bilstein invented the monotube shock 40 years ago. They frown on the conventional twin tube design- bu the Koni twintube is not a typical "conventional twin tube design, I explained how Koni developed a separate two disk gas pressure design- they kept developing the twintube unlike Bilstein and actually still do use some twin tube shocks offered in their racing catalogs- albeit they are lightweight and heat bleeding aluminum shocks and are very very pricey, but they ARE in fact just like the 8041 line- but are labeled 8212 series for the aluminum buld and double adjustment knobs (one at the base that also adjusts the lower mounted compression valve disk at the base of the internal twin tube. They are just not steel bodied over the counter units like the 8041sport yellows but are basically the exact same design internally but with heavier parts than the high end racing versions.

Koni from what I know has continued the development of the twintube (whereas Bilstein dropped any interest in them years ago) becasue of the ease of single and double adjustment abilities where class restrictions allow for adjustable shocks. It makes for much quicker "pitstop adjustments" and thus why Koni has the reputation in auto racing. Recent designs like from Penske in the developent of very high priced 4-way shocks again revolutionized the industry, but most people had no idea how to set them and were lost just messing with adjustments. Lastly, Bilstein never developed the shock becasue when they designed the monotube yearrs ago it became their legacy as well as their sales pitch frowning on the conventional twintube shock- but the conventional twintube is terrible compared to Koni's gas charged two disc twintube

[kowalski]

Thanks for your input.

I spoke to my mechanic today about the monotube vs twintube.
He told me to stick with Koni twintubes as they will be much easier to adjust the settings.
I will probably buy them soon or next month.

I hope these Koni's will give me a pleasent ride matched with Vogtland springs.
I drove my car on the freeway today up to 130mph and I don't like my stock factory suspension.
It feels like my car is moving sideways, like a snake crawling in the sand.
This is how it feels at high speed.

I have replaced all bushings and LCA/UCA on front axle.
Now it's time for new replacement parts like bushings and suspension arms for rear axle.
I've already bought these stuff and I will replace them when I change my shox and springs.

2 years ago I bought new Continental SportContact3 aftermarket tires, they don't have the MO stamp which means Mercedes Original.
Would there be any difference between MO stamped Conti's and aftermarket Conti's?
Something like instability problems, or they might be more tramline sensitive?
Dimension is 225/40/18 front and 255/35/18 rear

I have installed MB Arts adjustable camber arms and did a 4 wheel align when I got my new tires.
This shop also sells rear toe links.
Are these necessary to have when using adjustable camber arms, getting a perfect synergy match?

Adjustable rear toe links do they give more precise straight line performance driving @ high speed or is it only noticeable from stand still launches?

[Vetruck]

I hope these Koni's will give me a pleasent ride matched with Vogtland springs.
I drove my car on the freeway today up to 130mph and I don't like my stock factory suspension.
It feels like my car is moving sideways, like a snake crawling in the sand.
This is how it feels at high speed.

I have replaced all bushings and LCA/UCA on front axle.
Now it's time for new replacement parts like bushings and suspension arms for rear axle.
I've already bought these stuff and I will replace them when I change my shox and springs.

2 years ago I bought new Continental SportContact3 aftermarket tires, they don't have the MO stamp which means Mercedes Original.
Would there be any difference between MO stamped Conti's and aftermarket Conti's?
Something like instability problems, or they might be more tramline sensitive?
Dimension is 225/40/18 front and 255/35/18 rear

I have installed MB Arts adjustable camber arms and did a 4 wheel align when I got my new tires.
This shop also sells rear toe links.
Are these necessary to have when using adjustable camber arms, getting a perfect synergy match?

Adjustable rear toe links do they give more precise straight line performance driving @ high speed or is it only noticeable from stand still launches?

Tires are not the issue. The Contact3's are a great tire. THey are alot like the PZeroRosso's I run on a few cars- a very simular tire in feel. The COntacts have a little more grip, but the Pirelli's are just a tad more responsive and predictable. Those Contacts do not in any way walk about or wander, so definately its in the suspension.

Lets look at what happens when you lower the rear of a w202. The five link suspension. The doniinant arms are the bottom control arm and the two diagonal forward links. As the suspension compresses, the bottom arm lengthens in geometry thus pushing the bottm out and giving a little neg camber. meanwhile the two (4-link type) forward ectentions will arch upward and pull the wheel forward. This is placing the knuckle forward and outward. Then the other two links- top camber link shortens pulling the top of the knuckle inward thus massive neg camber (hence the need for slightly longer aftermarket arms) and the toe link will tug the front of the knuckle inward making more positive toe position (toe in)...factory will most likely call for about 1/16" toe in, but this proabaly pulls it past 1/8" in which will make a car light in the rear. It kind of rides up on itself. A little toe will make it grip into corners, but too much can lead to high speed wander especially if you are experiencing a change in toe as one wheel hits a bump and the other doesn't. A rapid increase on one side will walk the rear towards the other direction.

The whole idea of suspension geometry, esppecially rear geometry is to try and keep all of the arms in sync so as not to push, pull or tug the rear knuckle in any direction that changes the tires path, If the knuckle moves off reference to the centerline of the vehicle in yaw, the tire does too. I am not familiar with the travel path of these cars suspension yet. I have yet to pull a spring out and put a gauge on the whel and bump it through travel to see just how it may change. I can assume the path of change, but I do not know how much change and in how effective this change comes with ljust how low a stance. I have see a few funny things so far - take SpeedBenz's car- I havee seen pics where he changed the lower forward links, and left the upper one stock- this takes rear caster out, or will put it in if you pull the wheel forward and shorten the wheelbase.(this comes at a cost of inducing toe-out- but if he went low enoguh he about averaged out the factory rear tierod spec- ultimately if this is what he did the final result pulled his wheel forward and slightly inward in his wheelwell.

5-links are very comples to try and get and imaginary picture- they make even my head hurt. I have to physically motion the assembly and measure as I do to see exactly what is changing.
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/shop_pix/dscn0018.html

[kowalski]

So what do you think about getting adjustable toe in arms?
Are they worth the money?
My mechanic said if I go to Nürnburg ring for fun driving these rods are worth buying getting better handling/performance, if I don't race my car they are just waste of money!
That's what he said.

yes this car had some special suspension tune up.
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/shop_pix/

http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/shop_pix/page2.html

http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/speedybenz_on_board/

[hvmercy]

The pics you posted in the link belongs to a member here. His handle is c55mo and one of the OG's that Jeff (forgot his screen name) worked with to upgrade his suspension.
That is a one of a kind W202 C43 which was converted into a C55 and to go along with the the engine swap he didn't stop there and did a complete upgrade of his suspension. I think money was no object to him when it came to upgrading his C55 to transfer those power to the ground.


So what do you think about getting adjustable toe in arms?
Are they worth the money?
My mechanic said if I go to Nürnburg ring for fun driving these rods are worth buying getting better handling/performance, if I don't race my car they are just waste of money!
That's what he said.

yes this car had some special suspension tune up.
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/shop_pix/

http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/shop_pix/page2.html

http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/speedybenz_on_board/

[Denlasoul]

Kowalski- ask yourself, what are you planning on doing with your car?

If you are going to track/race it and can understand the suspension ins and outs, then do the upgrades mentioned in this Thread.

If this car is your DD, then realistically, how much tuning will you need? Doing these upgrades will change the way your car handles. If you like the comfort of the Benz then leave everything alone. Once you start changing things it will drive differently.

[kowalski]

Kowalski- ask yourself, what are you planning on doing with your car?

If you are going to track/race it and can understand the suspension ins and outs, then do the upgrades mentioned in this Thread.

If this car is your DD, then realistically, how much tuning will you need? Doing these upgrades will change the way your car handles. If you like the comfort of the Benz then leave everything alone. Once you start changing things it will drive differently.

as I already bought my stuff I can't go back anymore.
I don't track my car, instead I drive like Bandit on motorways when it's free from other cars.
@ high speed my car wants to wander a bit, I think it's becoz the old style steering system or car's shell being sensitive to wind?
I want more stability to my car, it's already stiff with stock components, I don't mind getting better improved stuff giving my car more straightline stability at Autobahn speed.

[John Jones Jr.]

Doing these upgrades will change the way your car handles. If you like the comfort of the Benz then leave everything alone. Once you start changing things it will drive differently.

100% correct there Denlasoul.

[John Jones Jr.]

Doing these upgrades will change the way your car handles. If you like the comfort of the Benz then leave everything alone. Once you start changing things it will drive differently.

100% correct there Denlasoul.

[kowalski]

I got new spring pads for my new future suspension.
I bought #5 front pads and #4 rear pads.
What kind of wheel gap am I going to get with my stuff, Vogtlands lowers approx 35mm?
I'm looking for 1 to 1½ finger gap front and rear without rub issues.

My stock wheel gap is now 2 finger gap front/rear.

My car is not a daily driver, it doesn't matter to me if I need to get a kidney belt for old skool Harley's if my car gets a stiffer ride.
stiffer ride must mean it's more fun to drive this car?

[Vetruck]

100% correct there Denlasoul.


No he's 0% correct and I will explain why.

You want to leave the susepsion alone? Then don't lower the car at all. If you DO lower the car, you are changing the articulation neutral arch of the suspension links from -1/0/+1 range of horizonal level to 0/+1/+2, or even +1/+2/+3.

Some of the arms are shorter than others and are ment to increase cmaber with body roll, as well as increase +toe on that side with body roll. The increase negative camber (called "camber gain") is promoted to counter act both body roll AND tire lateral tire footprint distrotion. Strating with it in static form as you all know creates inner tire wear-thus the eamples of a 0 or even +1 starting point.

Now to the toe= the toe kindof does the same thing in roll. It induced a little turning of the outside rear wheel intot he direction of corner path as the car rolls and the suspension tucks, this effect is called "roll induced understeer". you lower the car and again you are changing the static position of toe.

You need to change this settings on a lowered car so they essentually are NOT changed

[Vetruck]

@Kowalski-

1st off- Nurburgring? (Homer Simpson voice) oooOOouuh Im jealous, it is my dream to pilot that course one day. Investors have release a press release last year on a full scale replica of Nurburgring here in the states in of all places Las Vegas in the outer hills territory. I pray they break ground on that project.

yes you will need toe arms that are adjustable if the car is lowered. You pretty much need anything and everything adjustable if the car is lowered.

[kowalski]

@Kowalski-

1st off- Nurburgring? (Homer Simpson voice) oooOOouuh Im jealous, it is my dream to pilot that course one day. Investors have release a press release last year on a full scale replica of Nurburgring here in the states in of all places Las Vegas in the outer hills territory. I pray they break ground on that project.

yes you will need toe arms that are adjustable if the car is lowered. You pretty much need anything and everything adjustable if the car is lowered.

I hope these investors build a track for ya like Nürnburgring.
Go to your local mall where the wishing well is and drop a coin for your dream wish coming true.

Stock factory toe in arms are they usless in functionality when using adjustable camber arms?
Regarding adjustable toe arms, they cost a shitload of cash as I already bought camber arms from the same guy.
Having to pay another $310 dollars for those arms, ooooooouch my wallet hurts!

Adjustable toe in arms are they made specially for straightline driving?

You see the vertical adjustable rod in this picture
Who makes these stabilizers in adjustable version?
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/shop_pix/dscn0024.html

stock factory is plastic
http://www.ebay.de/itm/MERCEDES-190-C-KLASSE-CABRIOLET-CLK-COUPE-Hinterachse-LEMFORDER-KOPPELSTANGE-/290917971454?pt=DE_Autoteile&fits=Platform%3AW202&hash=item43bc0ff5fe

[Denlasoul]

No he's 0% correct and I will explain why.
Not sure I am following you. Everything you just wrote about camber/toe in etc etc supports my previous statement.

If you like the way the car drives, dont change anything. Most people dont like the look and thus change to lowering springs. Once that happens, as you have stated, all other spec alignments are thrown off. Now, 99.9% of our Members dont have the knowledge, understanding, resources, and parts to correct these changes. So we have a Forum of unhappy drivers seeking perfection that likely isnt possible because of the beforesaid factors.

Therefore, I suggest not changing anything unless you are ok with having things out of spec.

Back on track, this information is invaluable! I have a basic understanding of these concepts and now can see why my current setup behaves the way it does. I will have to consult you about doing a proper setup. ;)

[Vetruck]

Not sure I am following you. Everything you just wrote about camber/toe in etc etc supports my previous statement.

If you like the way the car drives, dont change anything. Most people dont like the look and thus change to lowering springs. Once that happens, as you have stated, all other spec alignments are thrown off. Now, 99.9% of our Members dont have the knowledge, understanding, resources, and parts to correct these changes. So we have a Forum of unhappy drivers seeking perfection that likely isnt possible because of the beforesaid factors.

Therefore, I suggest not changing anything unless you are ok with having things out of spec.

Back on track, this information is invaluable! I have a basic understanding of these concepts and now can see why my current setup behaves the way it does. I will have to consult you about doing a proper setup. ;)

I agree copletely with this .

In the other post I read from you, you were talking about making changes discussed in this poost but if its you DD then leave it be- I thought you ment 'lower it and leave weverything else alone and live with it"- meaning the radiacal neg camber and toe outta wack that everyone seems to be just dealing with. I guess I interpeted what you wrote a different way- were are on the same page and my appologizes if I misinterpeted you, My bad.


@Kowalski- Those vertical bars are just merely some pieced together hiem links he put in place of the standard swaybar end links- he did that to take out deflection on any use of swaybar bushings. THat is a "track only" mod and will not last for daily street use. Street sbuse over dips bumps and potholes etc puts way more abrupt strain on solid links then a typical asphalt race track does. Racetracks are generally smmoth for the most part. Also, racecars are generally torn down and rebuilt a few times during a race season. Better off with rubber bushings or urethane (urethhane being the stronger of the two). It appears to me that even though SpeedyBenz did some custom work to that car, he was kindof throwing things at it probably at the advice of someone wanting to see him spend his money. That lower forward link being changed yet not the upper forward is puzzling to me. You either change them both are not. You don;t just do one. makees me think he was just putting some flash under there where people could look under and see the shiney parts

[kowalski]

@Vetruck
these adjustable bars are they stress/strain sensitive for street abuse if you hit potholes, go over speedbumps or hit stormdrain lids at normal speed?
sometimes when you drive on unknown road conditions you hit a pothole or something else at certain speed, the question is if your alignment will be going out of whack because an adjustable camber arm/toe in arm is not a solid piece of metal?

For legal/high speed driving with normal wear n tear abuse these bars should they be fine meaning last long?
So far I don't have any issues like squeeks or bushings wore out.

I recently hit a small pothole with my rear wheels and I'm worried that my camber arms will screw me on tire wear later on when miles went on if they got out of sync from pothole impact?
Now and then when driving all drivers hits potholes because of poorly street maintanence from road work authorities.

What if your car gets rear-ended or get hit by another car on one of your rear wheel?
Adjustable bars will definately collapse from impact as they are a 3 piece part.

When I do my suspension mod later this year, if I don't get any straightline improvemnet at illegal high speed driving, then I have to start saving money for adjustable toe in arms.

[Vetruck]

@Vetruck
these adjustable bars are they stress/strain sensitive for street abuse if you hit potholes, go over speedbumps or hit stormdrain lids at normal speed?
sometimes when you drive on unknown road conditions you hit a pothole or something else at certain speed, the question is if your alignment will be going out of whack because an adjustable camber arm/toe in arm is not a solid piece of metal?

For legal/high speed driving with normal wear n tear abuse these bars should they be fine meaning last long?
So far I don't have any issues like squeeks or bushings wore out.

I recently hit a small pothole with my rear wheels and I'm worried that my camber arms will screw me on tire wear later on when miles went on if they got out of sync from pothole impact?
Now and then when driving all drivers hits potholes because of poorly street maintanence from road work authorities.

What if your car gets rear-ended or get hit by another car on one of your rear wheel?
Adjustable bars will definately collapse from impact as they are a 3 piece part.

When I do my suspension mod later this year, if I don't get any straightline improvemnet at illegal high speed driving, then I have to start saving money for adjustable toe in arms.

The adjustable link bar assemblies are very strong and are not going to just break on you. Where the problem with tacing type parts lies is the use of solid metal pivots like hiems joints/rod ends. They work great and will last awhile even on street use if you buy very expensive upper end units, but they do transmit road feel since there is no rubber/urethane issolation dampering- AND the metal on metal picot balls will eventually wear and start causing a rodend knock noise that can be quite annoying expecially on a luxury car. The links on SpeedBenz car you asked about were in reference to his custom swaybar solid hiem joints. They are small in size and will not hold up to much abuse until they start knocjing are even break becasue they are such small diameter soild pivot balls used in those tiny swaybar links. better to use urethane bushing links always for a street car.

All of the other links are strong. they just will wear over time- so with that said, the higher the priced rod ends you buy (look for high Axiel strength, radial strength is not as important but the two usually go hand in hand in load capacity ratings) the longer they will last for street use without noise or knocking sound. I have wiped out Com-12 bearings in as little as 2 months, yet have had high strength PRN-T bearings last well over 3 years of daily driving use. The difference is about $17 for the Com-12 and about $78 for the PRN-T just to give examples.

When people make up links using Coleman aluminum rods and QA1 com-12 rod ends, they are cheap in cost and do not last long without developing a little slop and thus noise. That 3-pc link assembly for a Camber arm may cost about $50 each side, whereas a very high quality rodened 3pc link will cost about $170 per side. THose bushing arms from places like Kmac have issolator bushings inside the ends. So do the DIY arms in that post from Speedway Motors- those are not solid links, but will still have a little deflection and are not good for racing. they will as long as any OEM part for daily street use though.

[Vetruck]

I run very high end stuff on my 5000 lb truck as a DD. This is my DD, I am building the C220 for the little lady- it's her DD.
You can see in the pics the stuff I run on this truck. Everything on this vehicle is built bigtime. It is all heavy duty racing parts. I run usrethane bushing in my lower A-arms because they last longer and have alot greater forces exerted on them than these upper control arms. The upper ares are what set the Camber like on the rear of our Mercedes, and they see about 1/3 the abuse the links on this truck see. My front rodeneds are finally starting to know after about 5-6 years so I will be replacing the rodends in these very soon. They have about 50,000 very hard miles on them and cost about $80 each, there ore two on each arm so I run a total of 4. THis is not a cheap hobby.

These entire arm assemblies I pieced together are about $700

[kowalski]

great info thanks

mbarts adjustable links is in the higher pricerange?
reading his technical specs,materials must be good stuff?
http://mbartsperformance.com/MBA-202-ARCA.html

where do you buy HQ chromoly rod ends when they need to be replaced?

[Vetruck]

I would not trust he's using high end rod ends. They are probably low to mid range units. They are telfon coated which is good, but for the price I would just piece together your own units. Give me a little time I will find all the specs for you based off that DIY camber arm post. Let me see if I can exchange that DIY link with good rodends based on their thread size. You will also need to get spacers for each side of the Rodeneds to fill the gap but those are also easily acquired online.

[Vetruck]

Info so for-

here's that DIY link
http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?15907-DIY-Adjustable-rear-camber-arms

Speedway end link info is:
5/8" shanks
1/2" center bore
2 7/8" lentgh from center bore fo end of threads

Let me look now or some good rod ends that will replace those rubber end links

[Vetruck]

You want REALLY strong racing links- here is the ultimate links
These ends hold 55,692 lbs radial load

QA1 Part # HMR12HT right hand threads----need 2...$46.49 each
QA1 part # HML12HT left hand threads------need 2...$46.49 each
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/circle-track/rod-ends/3-piece/hm-t-series-alloy-steel.html


QA1 part # SG12-84 High misalignment step spacers from 3/4" to 1/2" (1/4" wide on each side of rodened to fill the gap of the chassis and knuckle mounts)----you'll need 2 for each rodend, so a total of 8....$7.50 each
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/circle-track/rod-end-accessories/spacers/spacers-misalignment.html


Coleman aluminum 9 1/2" arms- EZ adjust type/no need for jam nuts. You use 1" longer arms than Jam nut style arms. You have splenty of shank lengh on the rod ends so 9.5" long units should be fine. makes ALOT easier adjustment with the lockdown clamps.
Qty-2...$21.35 each
http://www.colemanracing.com/Trailing-Arm-Ez-Just-34-P3753.aspx

Total- $288.66

Larger (3/4" bore), not 5/8 bore), stronger rod ends by far than the MBarts untis or the DIY units and will last forever on the rear end of a lightweight W202 camber link.

This is what I will be doing

Edit to add- The rod ends are 1.5" long each side when fully countersunk into the link arms. This makes the absolute minimum link length of 12.5", and a maximum of about 14" since e shanks on each side are 1.8" long. You get about 3/4" of thread adjustment from each side making a total of about 1.5" adjustment in length.

[kowalski]

You want REALLY strong racing links- here is the ultimate links
These ends hold 55,692 lbs radial load

QA1 Part # HMR12HT right hand threads----need 2...$46.49 each
QA1 part # HML12HT left hand threads------need 2...$46.49 each
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/circle-track/rod-ends/3-piece/hm-t-series-alloy-steel.html


QA1 part # SG12-84 High misalignment step spacers from 3/4" to 1/2" (1/4" wide on each side of rodened to fill the gap of the chassis and knuckle mounts)----you'll need 2 for each rodend, so a total of 8....$7.50 each
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/circle-track/rod-end-accessories/spacers/spacers-misalignment.html


Coleman aluminum 9 1/2" arms- EZ adjust type/no need for jam nuts. You use 1" longer arms than Jam nut style arms. You have splenty of shank lengh on the rod ends so 9.5" long units should be fine. makes ALOT easier adjustment with the lockdown clamps.
Qty-2...$21.35 each
http://www.colemanracing.com/Trailing-Arm-Ez-Just-34-P3753.aspx

Total- $288.66

Larger (3/4" bore), not 5/8 bore), stronger rod ends by far than the MBarts untis or the DIY units and will last forever on the rear end of a lightweight W202 camber link.

This is what I will be doing

thats great news vetruck!
thanks.

all right, so these stuff are the professional stuff i should have bought the very first time?
they came out cheaper than mbarts for $288.66.

when you put the same stuff on your car, parts you have linked above let me know what i need to buy for adjustable toe in bars as i don't know US sizes which comes in inch measurment.
we use metric in europe

anyone know the size diameter of MB-Arts adjustable camber arm tube?
when i need to buy replacement rod-ends, i want to buy HQ ends.
so what size rod-ends do i need to get?

thanx

[Vetruck]

anyone know the size diameter of MB-Arts adjustable camber arm tube?
when i need to buy replacement rod-ends, i want to buy HQ ends.
so what size rod-ends do i need to get?

thanx
The MB Arts says on their site they are using 1" solid bar 6061-T6 and talk up their ass in marketing hype how theirs are so much stronger than "sprintcar arms". Got news for MB Arts- the Coleman arms fall into the catagory of racing aluminum trailing arms like all the other manufacturers (Allstar, Coleman, etc) which all happen to be 6061-T6 ALSO.

These links are in compression and tension. The weakest part of the aluminum is the same on both MB Arts units as well as the so called sprintcar arms (self procliamed term by MB Arts- they are alumunim trailing arms...period) That weakest section is the thread bore size and the threads. The smaller the thread bore, the weaker the threads will be. THe MB Arts arms use either a 5/8" bore (smaller)or the same 3/4" bore at best as the Coleman arms. Now when you look at the wall thickness of a 3/4" bore into a 1" bar stock, that leaves .125 wall thickness AND THEN the threads are cut into them making them even thinner. Most likely the MBarts arms are using 5/8" shank rodends, not the 3/4" shank ones I listed. So lets take the 5/8" bore into 1" bar and we have .1875 walls prior to threads cut. The Coleman arms are 1.125 with a 3/4" bore and thus the same .1875 wall..YET the Coleman arms have a larger bore and thus a larger shank thread surface area- thus stronger. Low and behold, MB Arts marketing hype is false about so called sprint car arms being inferior.

Now lets look at the 5/8" shank/ 1/2" centerbore heat treated alloy rodends that are teflon coated. lets take the best 5/8" vs the best 3/4" and compare the strengths of the pivot ball and race (we already learned the shank threads are far stronger on the 3/4"). I can see in the pictures of the MB Arts rodends that he is is also using stepdown spacers so the center bore is a little larger than 1/2" to do so. Thus if he is using 5/8" shank rodend they are a 5/8" bore. The best ones availible are the HML10HT's which are 40,572 (remember the larger 3/4" are 55,692- much stronger).

HOWEVER, I highly doubt that MB Arts is using the high dollar units, they are most likely using the HML10T's, not the HML10HT's which are half the price and only a strength of 17,995

In Conclusion, even if MB Arts did in fact use the larger and best 55,692 load rodends, the thread bore for the shank on their 1" diameter bar links would be far inferior- or else they are using the inferior smaller rodends. They definately are inferior one way or the other- calculations show they can NOT be as strong as the pieces I listed- and they charge you more.

Let me take MB Arts disclaimer and use the same "Public Service Announcement" and use it against them....what a joke, its's all about scare tactics and marketing hype.

[Vetruck]

The MB Arts says on their site they are using 1" solid bar 6061-T6 and talk up their ass in marketing hype how theirs are so much stronger than "sprintcar arms". Got news for MB Arts- the Coleman arms fall into the catagory of racing aluminum trailing arms like all the other manufacturers (Allstar, Coleman, etc) which all happen to be 6061-T6 ALSO.

These links are in compression and tension. The weakest part of the aluminum is the same on both MB Arts units as well as the so called sprintcar arms (self procliamed term by MB Arts- they are alumunim trailing arms...period) That weakest section is the thread bore size and the threads. The smaller the thread bore, the weaker the threads will be. THe MB Arts arms use either a 5/8" bore (smaller)or the same 3/4" bore at best as the Coleman arms. Now when you look at the wall thickness of a 3/4" bore into a 1" bar stock, that leaves .125 wall thickness AND THEN the threads are cut into them making them even thinner. Most likely the MBarts arms are using 5/8" shank rodends, not the 3/4" shank ones I listed. So lets take the 5/8" bore into 1" bar and we have .1875 walls prior to threads cut. The Coleman arms are 1.125 with a 3/4" bore and thus the same .1875 wall..YET the Coleman arms have a larger bore and thus a larger shank thread surface area- thus stronger. Low and behold, MB Arts marketing hype is false about so called sprint car arms being inferior.

Now lets look at the 5/8" shank/ 1/2" centerbore heat treated alloy rodends that are teflon coated. lets take the best 5/8" vs the best 3/4" and compare the strengths of the pivot ball and race (we already learned the shank threads are far stronger on the 3/4"). I can see in the pictures of the MB Arts rodends that he is is also using stepdown spacers so the center bore is a little larger than 1/2" to do so. Thus if he is using 5/8" shank rodend they are a 5/8" bore. The best ones availible are the HML10HT's which are 40,572 (remember the larger 3/4" are 55,692- much stronger).

HOWEVER, I highly doubt that MB Arts is using the high dollar units, they are most likely using the HML10T's, not the HML10HT's which are half the price and only a strength of 17,995

In Conclusion, even if MB Arts did in fact use the larger and best 55,692 load rodends, the thread bore for the shank on their 1" diameter bar links would be far inferior- or else they are using the inferior smaller rodends. They definately are inferior one way or the other- calculations show they can NOT be as strong as the pieces I listed- and they charge you more.

Let me take MB Arts disclaimer and use the same "Public Service Announcement" and use it against them....what a joke, its's all about scare tactics and marketing hype.

just a FYI- I am quite well known and respected in the GM aftermarket parts world. I have taken down many aftrmarket vendors on car forums just like this in personal debates and facts (UMI, Hotparts, Founders Perf, PAracing, Racecraft, Chisholm- to name a few)

[John Jones Jr.]

just a FYI- I am quite well known and respected in the GM aftermarket parts world. I have taken down many aftrmarket vendors on car forums just like this in personal debates and facts (UMI, Hotparts, Founders Perf, PAracing, Racecraft, Chisholm- to name a few)


:D :cool:

[Denlasoul]

just a FYI- I am quite well known and respected in the GM aftermarket parts world. I have taken down many aftrmarket vendors on car forums just like this in personal debates and facts (UMI, Hotparts, Founders Perf, PAracing, Racecraft, Chisholm- to name a few)
Great to have you here. Wish I could reciprocate!

[Vetruck]

Great to have you here. Wish I could reciprocate!

You guys do. I have actually been sick this week so I have computer-itice LOL

Some of stuff I type I have been told in past on other forums I come off rude or arrogant. Please understand I love teaching this stuff- but I have terrible typing skills and just give alot of robotic sounding answers as I two finger peck at the keys. I like to stick to facts or first hand experience.

I know so many people tha tfisrt come to know me on the compter and have told me they though I was an ass, then to later get to know me in person and say I am nothing like how I type. I've gotten better over the years, but I still need to build on expressing myself in text- hence why I am typing this message.

My goal when I post? Is to try and help others arm themselvves with information as to better and more wisely spend our hard earned money. I need to learn this car, it's why I am here. I have vast knowledge of chassis dynamics, I just need to learn the hands on settings and perameters of the w202 platform and it's individual strengths and weaknesses. That is where a forum like this and all of your combined experiences with repairs and modifications help me get there quicker without as mnuch trial and error in spending money and finding out later the hard way. Its like how i have been researching the camber fixes with these cars and how much is needed or not based on how low the car goes. I have not seen any speadsheet documenting bumpsteer, camber curves, etc on both front and rear suspensions. I see lots of data on wheel offsets and rear camber arms, but also rear about tire rubs, bad wear, etc. I like to do things right. When I do not know something, I try and studfy it for awhile until I decide just what I am going to do to something- once I do I bit the bullet and get it all done fairly quickly.

With all thatsaid, these cars look very simple. I think people just go too low with them getting this "stance thing". It appears looking at the geometry of the rear 5 link that the 2 front parallel bars have adequate geometry to lower the car an inch easy and still retain good travel and articulation without pulling the rear assembly forward shortening and lengthening the wheelbase as it articulates. Nor does an extended camber link casue the travel to go into camber curve neutality or even camber loss- so that so far looks good from what I see. The geometry of the rear toe bars will depend on high speed aero squat of the chassis, as well as overall travel. If the car does suffer from aero squat (hard to get a tape measure reading of the fender lip to the ground distance at 80mph -LOL- so its all about feel) then the low speed stuff can be dialed to a rear toe staic setting of 0*. Body roll alone in a corner will promote an outer wheel toe gain and thus help induce roll understeer keeping the car stable and tight into and through a corner, and high speed squat hopefully will only slightly induce the needed toe-in settings for high speed stability. Its got to be set at optimum arm level geometry- so what ride height is that? if will be dependant of gauging suspension travel via zipties cinched around the Koni yellow shock shafts as indicators when I install them hopefully tomorrow or Wednesday (If they get here- I am waiting for the UPS guy as we speak). Ill start taking fender lip readings, arm angles, and overall travel readings in strightline travel as well as hard cornering roll. Its done by gounding the ziptie to the shock body and then drive itno what situation you want to study. If you want high speed stright stuff then gently drive it over and merge onto the freeway easy and run it up to speed without straining the car into any corner. Gently bring it back intot he garage bay and reach uner and measure the distance of the normal suspension travel over higher speed freeway bumps combined with aero squat. Tells you how much the suspension is traveling. Then reset the incicators and run it around a skidpad (large parking lot will do). Check the indicators both left and right circles indicidually- record the travel. Then lastly you can set them and dive hard on the brakes stright line from about 30-40 mph and see how much the front dives from brake squat.

Compare all of that data and it will tell me what the spring rates are doing balance wise betweeen coils and swaybar needs. I can tune a little with the Koni rebound settings, but that is mainly for ride quality since the main focus is for the little lady to be comfortable as well as have safe handling in case of emergency when she commutes in this car.

I will most likely build this car pretty radiical in handling, but it will all come with necessity of wanting to lower it a little for looks as well as safety (ie- the typical lowered cg or center of gravity). I do it for a better and safer ride, not for look and a crappy ride. it's why it all takes time to learn these cars so it's done right the first time- cuz god know I'll here about it if the car rides like crap when I lower it. I need to make sure I am getting enough data to do it right as well as have the money on hand for any unaticipated quick purchases to correct unforseen geometry problems- It unfortunately cost money to do things the right way...and thats why I try and be detailed and help.

[John Jones Jr.]

Vetruck, that's a bloody good post. It says a lot & all positives too.

Since, you've mentioned Koni yellows as I have fitted last week, what would you say, after doing 500 miles on very mixed roads I think the suspension overall has improved especially from a comfort aspect? Any sense in what I'm implying? I for sure don't think the suspension is as harsh as it was on the first 100 miles...

[Vetruck]

Alot of it is you getting used to not having to move the wheel about as much when you did the change. You were focusing at first on the firmer ride, but now you realize the comfort level of not having to be as 'on top of" the stering imputs as much because the car is alot more controlble in the event of a rapid emergency steering imput. You can relax more now when driving so that relieves the death grip tension associated with a poor handling vehicle.

Seriously, if you could take your heart rate before and after on the same section of road you will find you are much more relaxed behind the wheel with the Koni's becasue you now have confidence in the car under you.

[John Jones Jr.]

Yep, that's makes sense.

[kowalski]

someone at mbworld bought KONI FSD shox, they came without shock dust covers?
who does sell these new if Koni doesn't supply them?
seems like the old dust covers are not removable from old shox?

if not using dust covers, sand and other crap will grind and destroy suspension rods.

http://mbworld.org/forums/w210-amg/500007-need-some-suspension-help-please.html

[Denlasoul]

someone at mbworld bought KONI FSD shox, they came without shock dust covers?
who does sell these new if Koni doesn't supply them?
seems like the old dust covers are not removable from old shox?
You take off the stock ones.

[Vetruck]

He doesn't need them. he lives in sunny Southern California where there is no road salt on snowy roads. Its the seals they try and protect on foul weather cars-and the adjustable detent button on the Yellows that face upwrad and can collect debris, thus corrode. A good weather climate car never has to worry about this. A little rain and a little dirt over 20 years is nothing compared to road salt.

[kowalski]

i live in scandinavia where lots of salt is being dumped on the streets every winter.
i need dust covers for protection as my shox will corrode.
i don't drive my car in winter, but it's better to be 100% covered

[walterk55]

I put on KYB Shocks - Gas-a-Just's and they do a good job. I also got a front sway bar from a C280 Sport. It is a solid bar instead of the hollow original bar, and give more stability. Not easy to find these as this sway bar as there are not that many W202 Sports out there that are being parted-out.