Just received my C230K pulley

[John Jones Jr.]

It came this morning from Germany, total cost €60/$78, a bargain if my local machine shop can increase the diameter of the outer pulley. Fingers crossed.


1099

I'll let you know how I get on.

[John Jones Jr.]

Right I've been in touch with one local machine shop, they can increase the diameter of the pulley, no problem there. Before they'll give me a price they want to know the exact percentage diameter increase I require. Now I understand different suppliers have over the years supplied different increased diameter crank pulleys, I've read about 14% & 17% increases and I think even bigger too.

Any suggestions on what increase I should specify?

[dokotela]

Good luck

[John Jones Jr.]

Good luck

Do you think I'll run into problems?

[dokotela]

The oem pulley has a harmonic damper which is very important for the smooth rotation of the crankshaft. How do you plan on achieving the same?

[John Jones Jr.]

Loooking at the OE crank pulley, it's just that a balanced weighted pulley - all metal (no rubber etc) & one piece too. Can't see how it could be considered a harmonic damper pulley like say a C240/C280 V6 has. Also I'm not planning on taking anything off the pulley, just adding to it and it would need to be balanced.

I am still missing something?

Here's one that just add's to the OE pulley, I presume that works?

http://www.international-speed-parts.de/de/kompressor-kit

[zmatt]

dont forget, you can also make your blower pulley smaller. Instead of getting a massive crank pulley get a bigger one and machine down the blower pulley at the same time. 1bar is easy to achieve that way.

[John Jones Jr.]

Zmatt, I understood but could very well be wrong that it was difficult to machine down the blower pulley due to the clutch unit and the pulley was reasonably small already?

Here's what I've been thinking - only thinking because I don't really know what the fcuk I'm doing.:D First off, I looked & considered the German one (see the attachment in my last post), but I have some reservations about the company & the pulley design, plus their circumference is 220mm from the original of 185mm so I'm not totally happy about buying it as that's an increase of 16% against the ASP pulley which has a 15% increase and I think I'd have a little more faith in ASP's sizing.

So, what I'm looking into, is having this other standard C230K c/pulley circumference increased by the local machine shop and have decided on a 15% increase as per the ASP pulley. Or, if the machine shop is looking for too much money I may have to take risk and buy the German pulley and see how that goes.

What do think etc?

[Pagz]

It will be interesting to see how you get on, Pretty confident my 230k pully had rubber.

Can you take a photo of the rear of the pully for us?

Either way solid or not you will change where the frequency cancels, it will work fine but you may experience more vibration at certain rpm.


edit:
here's is a photo of when I machined off the outer pully from the original balancer,note the rubber on the rear,it looks like the only part that is sprung by the rubber is the rear ring/wieght, the pully's are fixed.

1105

1106

I cut this one as I decided I wanted to reduce mass and run the standard n/a belt system for a turbo setup,Unfortunaley I did not torque to 200nm(bolts with 3 spring washers),so the pully came loose and broke the key. In the end I ran a crank pully for a C230 which may or may not have been ideal, due to a change in flywheel weight I always had some added vibration,especially being a 4 cylinder which suffers most from harmoics.

I may have missed this somewhere,How are you going about tuning this once fitted?

[zmatt]

Zmatt, I understood but could very well be wrong that it was difficult to machine down the blower pulley due to the clutch unit and the pulley was reasonably small already?

Here's what I've been thinking - only thinking because I don't really know what the fcuk I'm doing.:D First off, I looked & considered the German one (see the attachment in my last post), but I have some reservations about the company & the pulley design, plus their circumference is 220mm from the original of 185mm so I'm not totally happy about buying it as that's an increase of 16% against the ASP pulley which has a 14% increase and I think I'd have a little more faith in ASP's sizing.

So, what I'm looking into, is having this other standard C230K c/pulley circumference increased by the local machine shop and have decided on a 14% increase as per the ASP pulley. Or, if the machine shop is looking for too much money I may have to take risk and buy the German pulley and see how that goes.

What do think etc?

You can only machine it down so far, but SLK owners have had good luck with it. I don't have the link handy right now, but I remember a thread on MBworld about it. OP was able to get 1bar boost with the Kleeman crank pulley, a machine supercharger pulley and a ported supercharger.

[John Jones Jr.]

It will be interesting to see how you get on, Pretty confident my 230k pully had rubber.

Can you take a photo of the rear of the pully for us?

Either way solid or not you will change where the frequency cancels, it will work fine but you may experience more vibration at certain rpm.


edit:
here's is a photo of when I machined off the outer pully from the original balancer,note the rubber on the rear,it looks like the only part that is sprung by the rubber is the rear ring/wieght, the pully's are fixed.

1105

1106

I cut this one as I decided I wanted to reduce mass and run the standard n/a belt system for a turbo setup,Unfortunaley I did not torque to 200nm(bolts with 3 spring washers),so the pully came loose and broke the key. In the end I ran a crank pully for a C230 which may or may not have been ideal, due to a change in flywheel weight I always had some added vibration,especially being a 4 cylinder which suffers most from harmoics.

I may have missed this somewhere,How are you going about tuning this once fitted?

Pagz, thanks for your input. I just looked and inspected the rear of the pulley and indeed it has a rubber strip around the inner circumference, so it is a harmonic damper/pulley and I was incorrect in thinking it wasn't. Both you & Dokotela are 100% correct.

Since may plan is to add to the pulley and then get it balanced I wondering will the pulley be out much from a harmonic perspective, I note there is a 280-310 Hz stamp on it so maybe there's some leeway? Is the ASP pulley harmonic? I'd have my doubts.

[Mike51809]

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r170-slk-class/1516156-home-port-job-eaton-m62-s.html

Theres that link :D

[John Jones Jr.]

Great stuff Mike, thanks.

[John Jones Jr.]

Right, now I 'm thinking the only correct way of upping the boost pressure is to buy the ASP pulley since it's harmonic one to match the engine. I don't want to mess about with adding weight and increasing the circumference too by either bolting on a machine shop over size outer pulley or by buying the German cheap job. Of course if someone can tell me that doing either of the above won't affect the harmonics I'd still then consider it. Comments greatly received.

The other route to upping the boost which I very much like, is as Zmatt mentioned: ''dont forget, you can also make your blower pulley smaller''. Now this has got my attention as it seems it's o.k. to machine down (judging by the link Mike posted on the SLK project) the S/c pulley from 94mm to 87mm and importantly still keep the clutch unit. Really this seems a great way to go especially from a cost point (as I'm on a very limited budget).

The SLK project, the owner has stated that this:

Stock : 7psi
Plus ASP: 10psi
ASP plus 87mm S/c pulley: 14psi

Now, I am correct in reading the above as saying a smaller 87mm S/c will generate on it own an extra 4psi bringing the boost to 11psi? It looks that way but is it? As the SLK project car was never tested with just the smaller S/c pulley on it's own. What I'm getting at is: the 14psi is generated with both the ASP & smaller S/c pulley combined, I wondering if the 87mm worth 4psi on it's own? Again all views, comments etc greatly received.

[zmatt]

Just remember you have to port your SC to do 14psi. Stock it isn't efficient enough and will just blow hot air.

[John Jones Jr.]

Just remember you have to port your SC to do 14psi. Stock it isn't efficient enough and will just blow hot air.

Yes Zmatt, so I understand but I'm not looking to get to the magic 1bar or so. I'd be very happy with 10 or 11psi, thus my interest in a machined S/c pulley only or larger crank pulley/damper.

[zmatt]

Ah ok

[John Jones Jr.]

I've just ordered this:


http://www.international-speed-parts.de/products/de/kompressor-kit/kompressorkit-fuer-mercedes-200k-oder-230k.html

Hope I've not wasted a load of cash......

[KrumB]

Hi,

My engine pulley is custom made (220mm dia) and it's about 3-4mm away from the fan pulley.
The aluminum ring is surprisingly light.

Below is some more info.
http://mercedesdata.wordpress.com/

[John Jones Jr.]

Received my modified outer crank pulley back from the machine shop. The grub screws that were supplied only locked/pressed against the original crank damper/puller rather than screwing into it. Instead of the screws there's now bolts going thru both, original damper drilled & tapped plus some Locktite on the new bolts.

[KrumB]

Good! You'll be more than happy when you smack the throttle! :)

[John Jones Jr.]

K-B, have you driven your car with just the over sized crank pulley?

[Pagz]

Received my modified outer crank pulley back from the machine shop. The grub screws that were supplied only locked/pressed against the original crank damper/puller rather than screwing into it. Instead of the screws there's now bolts going thru both, original damper drilled & tapped plus some Locktite on the new bolts.

Excellent, Im really glad you replaced the grub screws with something more substantial!.

Do you have any plans on tuning or dynoing straight after install?

Cheers

[KrumB]

Hi J,
Yes I have and the effect is WOW. :))
Even without remap and everything .....

[John Jones Jr.]

Excellent, Im really glad you replaced the grub screws with something more substantial!.

Do you have any plans on tuning or dynoing straight after install?

Cheers

Good to hear from you Pagz.

I've no plans at all just yet & I'm needing advise etc. Where the car is located (I use something else daily, a Honda Accord Vtec YO! :D ) I've no access to anybody with a rolling road and no one doing ECU remaps. Also I've no real idea what the AFR will be with this 8.4% over sized pulley. In other words I don't know what I'm doing :eek: :mad: :o :(

I've posed a few question on another thread (M5 MAF) for Dok, re: MAF, FP & Plugs as I just want to play things safe due to my concern (possibly unjustified) about running the engine too lean, I really don't want to get into engine detonation problems especially if I can prevent it before using this new pulley.

And comments, advise or tips greatly received.

Thanks in advance.

[John Jones Jr.]

Double post

[John Jones Jr.]

Hi J,
Yes I have and the effect is WOW. :))
Even without remap and everything .....

K-B, no problems? Any idea what the AFR was? Or were you not concerned?

[Pagz]

Everyone starts at the beginning! ;)

My advice would be to have the AFR checked either by driving and having a tuner monitor it while listening to detonation, or doing it on a rolling road, the rolling road being the preferred option for loading reasons.

The ecu will adapt somewhat to the increase in pressure but where it stops adapting(either outside of sensor window or ecu map size) is very important if you want a reliable long lasting system!.

I know for a fact running ~15psi untuned will cause nice clean hot spots on top of your pistons^^.

[John Jones Jr.]

The beginning, you say. I'm thinking let's get back to my first love, n/a! I'm sure you know the problems with the interweb, the more sites you visit and the more you read the more questions there is than answers! Ain't that way as always, life! :D

Yeah, no 15psi here, really only want a safe 10psi which seems about right with the o/s pulley. What do you think, safe at 10?

I will get to an RR and have a remap too but would like to use car every so often prior to doing those.

[KrumB]

Don't worry. Just mount the pulley and go for a ride. The ECU will compensate the increase in pressure. Safely.
I've used a wide band sensor on a few occasions and I've had no problems even with AFR in the range of 16-18 @ WOT. Which I accomplished by using a bigger C/S pulley, smaller S/C pulley, OEM FPR and OEM plugs. :) :) :)

[Pagz]

Is it true that this lean mixture is an indication the Maps /and or MAS do not compensate as far as you have increased pressure?.

If 16-18 works for you that's great,however there are many variables in this world so if you live in a hot climate and have poor grade fuel will it still be safe under all conditions?.

Stock C230k afr for wot is 13.2 - 14.3.

[anf6789]

Pagz isn't 16-18 lean as fuck? :/

[KrumB]

It's more than lean. :) :)
I'm saying it does no harm to the engine (not to mine at least) you just don't have the maximum power.
I also had a period (large C/S, small S/C pulley) just before porting the S/C when the AFR was going in the high 10 @ WOT.
In the coming days I'll be checking it again so will let you know.

Pagz - you're right of course. There are many variables.

[KrumB]

It's more than lean. :) :)
I'm saying it does no harm to the engine (not to mine at least) you just don't have the maximum power.
I also had a period (large C/S, small S/C pulley) just before porting the S/C when the AFR was going in the high 10 @ WOT.
In the coming days I'll be checking it again so will let you know.

Pagz - you're right of course. There are many variables.

[John Jones Jr.]

I've had no problems even with AFR in the range of 16-18 @ WOT.


16-18?! Are you sure?
My understanding is that's miles too lean & should be more like 12-13.5. I can't get my head around the fact that you've had no problems.
Am I missing something here?

[KrumB]

You're not missing anything. :) These cars are vey well made. :)

....and I've seen AFR of 21. But that was because of a mistake I made...and the car is OK. :)

Cheers

[John Jones Jr.]

O.k. K-B. Let us know what your current AFR is when you do the checks.

[dokotela]

JJJ

You're gonna be fine.
Paul(pagz) is 100% correct in quoting the stock afr's according to stock MAF sensor.
When I installed my kleemann kit and ran the car on a Dyno, my afr's were also around 16-17. The stock ecu pulls back the timing accordingly as soon as detonation/knock is sensed. Yes our cars are well built but the truth is that if you persist with those kind of afr's, eventually you will find those hot spots as Paul has already told you.

Coming back to my car, what I found then was that my fuel pump, then still the original item from new, some 13 years old, was not delivering adequate fuel pressure. So upon changing the MAF initially which brought about a slight decrease in afr's and the fuel pump, I reached my goal afr of similar to what was quoted by Paul. Also he is absolutely correct in his warning about fuel quality and climate.
So their are many variables to consider, but if all the above variables have been replaced in advance, you will have absolutely no problem in running your car without a remap...trust me...been there, done that, got the t-shirt, soaked it in Surf.

I only changed my MAF the other day, all this while, some 2years now, I've been driving and enjoying my car with stock fpr, stock ecu, better quality plugs and that kleemann pulley kit. The only reason I changed the MAF is because I am modifying the sc pulley soon, and my car was over fueling.
Just get a colder spark plug and you're gonna be just fine.

[John Jones Jr.]

Cheers Dok.

I'm asking and trying to take in as much info as possible especially since this is my first forced induction car, thus all the basic questions. Hope I don't sound like a complete pain the ass but you know yourself, if you're unsure of something or don't know it's always better to ask people that do. Also, I spent and will be spending more on this project car than I originally had planned (what's new, says you :eek: :( :D ).

Oh yeah, I ordered the cooler running plugs just as you & K-B advised, got NGK BKUR7ET. All going well I'll have the pulley, plugs, new T-bolt hose clamps and the new M5 MAF fitted later this week.

Must also get the fuel pressure checked or do a flow test on the original pump now that you've mentioned it. Was previously considering just buying a new pump (and relay) no doubt the original is past it's best, might now just do that anyway.

Dok, one question. Is there any point in upping the FP at this stage?

Thanks again for your valued input. Top man.

[dokotela]

There's no point in upgrading your fpr. It will cope just fine, provided its working well currently. However should you decide to upgrade your sc pulley as well, then I would consider it. However I will test before I install mine just so that other 202ers know how to proceed.

[John Jones Jr.]

Cool.

[John Jones Jr.]

Crank over sized damper/pulley & belt now fitted. Yep, the car is quicker no doubt about it but, I really need to take it for a proper drive away from traffic. Noticed, a 'flat spot' or two below 3000rpm which wasn't there prior to fitting this new pulley. So, I've disconnected the battery and I'll see if it clears the ECU and allows it then to start off with just the basic parameters and do a bit of learning while I'm driving.

Other than that, I've still got the option of fitting the M5 MAF and changing the plugs to cooler ones once they arrive.

[KrumB]

Good news! :)

P.S. Change the MAF and the flats will disappear. ;)

[John Jones Jr.]

Good news! :)

P.S. Change the MAF and the flats will disappear. ;)

Hope you're right! I just come back from a longer drive now and noticed what I think is a lack of power above 4000rpm. MAF too?

[KrumB]

....might be...might not....might be you... :)
Change the MAF and drive for a few days. Let the ECU adjust.

And mainly don't worry! it's only metal! :)

[John Jones Jr.]

....might be...might not....might be you... :)
Change the MAF and drive for a few days. Let the ECU adjust.

And mainly don't worry! it's only metal! :)


Ha, ha. Good one.

[John Jones Jr.]

Fitted the M5 MAF this morning and went for a quick blast. Car seems much better, no 'flat spots' from what I could tell and is pulling like a train, definitely a quick car now. I'll be doing a 300 mile trip tomorrow and will update.


Well, hit the road early this morning (Saturday) and just back now after doing just over 320 miles. Great to report the car is driving well and the extra power from the new pulley is really brilliant for overtaking on single lane roads. Also noticeable is the acceleration from 50 - 70 & 80 -100, the car is in it's element.

[KrumB]

Hi J,

Now that you're with the bigger pulley can you log and see what your intake temperature is at load?

Thanks!

[John Jones Jr.]

Hi there K-B. Don't really want to know, to tell you the truth. I'd reckon the compressor is just a heat pump now! :D
I've no way of actually finding out the temp, didn't bother buying a IN/OUT temp gauge as other I purchased other bits. Is there an easy & cheap way of checked the temp?

[KrumB]

I use:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERCEDES-BENZ-38-pin-Adapter-OBD2-Female-OBD-connector-/320473888687?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item4a9dbb77af

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bluetooth-Torque-OBD2-OBDII-Diagnostic-Scanner-CAR-CODE-READER-for-ELM327-V1-5-/130884616668?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item1e7954c1dc

and an Adndroid smartphone.
The car has a temp sensor in the MAF that you can ready live using the above. :)
You can also clear most of the error codes if needed. :)

I forgot to mention the software. It's called Torque.
http://torque-bhp.com/

[John Jones Jr.]

Thanks for that. I'll need to get a smartphone so.

K-B, while your here have a look at my thread on power loss, thanks.

[Mike51809]

Just thought I'd throw this out there. The M62 doesnt really become massively inneficient until you go past 1 bar. Whats unique on our cars is the fact that it is intercooled which is really rare for a supercharged setup. When you look at the M62 map it is still 60-62% efficient at 1 bar and thats without an intercooler so increase that by even 10% and youre at 70-72%. Idk why everyone suggest the m92 or any other roots charger, they are not nearly as efficient as the M62 we have already... Just didnt want you to think its just a hot air pump, maybe an intercooler with low psi drop and smoother piping would be best eventually

[John Jones Jr.]

Howdo Mike? No, I was just joking really. Mind you I've been driving the old wagon hard over the last week or two since fitting the larger pulley/damper and the weather here has improved no end, we've gone from 12C to 26C in the space of a day. So, it's hotter than ever in the engine bay. And maybe this has something to do with my sudden power loss (see other thread).

[Abbaso]

JJR pm sent..

[John Jones Jr.]

Replied.

[zmatt]

Something to keep in mind, the stock intercooler is not all that great and heat soak is an issue even stock cars have to deal with. It's getting around the 90's here in Kentucky already and I can tell the power loss from it after spirited driving already.

[Abbaso]

Something to keep in mind, the stock intercooler is not all that great and heat soak is an issue even stock cars have to deal with. It's getting around the 90's here in Kentucky already and I can tell the power loss from it after spirited driving already.


Hey Zmatt
Its getting abit colder on our end of the world and the car feels sooo much better was thinking of going for an intercooler spray kit as w/m is abit of a problem with the cars. Any idea how efficient they are on our cars with the stock IC?

[gakz]

If you check out subby's post on Benzworld R170 section, he made a spray kit