Trying out some hardcore Brake Fluid; Motul RBF 600 DOT 4

[vixen_w202]

Reason why I bought this stuff is this Saturday (if I can get my car all back together and running) I'm going to something called the Eurotopia Meet in Santa Monica. It's going to be 2 hours of just amazing driving through the back roads of LA. I've been talking to the founder and coordinator of these meets through Facebook almost on a daily basis now, and he showed some concern about my mostly pedestrian brake setup. I have (for now, plans to replace soon) ceramic pads, but they are more for long wear life than constant thrashing. On top of that, I'm coming to the hard conclusion that this car for most of its life had been living off of original blackened and worn out fluids. My brake fluid is black, and on top of that the coordinator showed concern if my car could handle the constant drive through multiple canyons and roads.

I've known about the company Motul for a couple years now and I know they are known to be as the best of the best when it comes to high performance fluids. Crazy enough, a local riding/motorcycle shop had it in stock and two other bottles. I told the coordinator while upgrading my brakes was financially out of my reach for now (as most of my money has been blown on preventative maintenance), I could more than happily change out my fluid to something with a higher boiling point. There was one above the one I got, but it was for racing only. This stuff I got was recommended for high performance street.

I know I am not changing out my rotors or pads, but does running a much higher quality fluid help during brisk or spirited driving?

My question is this, I just bought one bottle for now, and it's 1.05 US pints. I'm going to try my hardest with help of a friend to bleed out the system with an extractor I got of its old junk and just run strictly this stuff. But I need to know exactly how much I need if I drain out the old system of its stuff to completely refill. The bottle I have in my hand right now is 1.05 pints. If anyone can advise me on the capacity stock that would be great and how many additional pints (if needed) I need. Because the shop only has two more bottles and I am on a blitzkreig to get this buttoned up by Friday night so it is healthy and ready to go.

I am not sure if I could do the bleed myself, but I do have an extractor like I said. If me and my friend do the full bleed, what is the procedure on the w202?


I would have just emptied out the resivoir and dumped this stuff in, but I think to make this work as intended a full flush is necessary, and I think that's what the guy is saying I have to do if I am to come.


I'm not gonna lie, this whole overhaul I'm doing was to get ready for this cruise :)

[Vetruck]

You are fine just using any brand new can of Dot3 or Dot 4 brake fluid. Do not use Dot 5 because the fluid is sliicone based and will not mix chemically with the non solicone based standard fluids-why? becasue it wil cau cemical crrosion if the ystem is contaminated with both- also hoses and rubber O-rngs inside the porp valve, MC, and caliper pistons will go bad very quickly.

THe Mutol is nice stuff, but you really do not need fuild boiling temps that high becasue your current pads will fade far before your each those temps. You do not have an high friction elaborate racing brake setup. You ahve factory rubber lines and somewhat OEM pads and rotors that will not control heat disapation well so what heat does generate quickly will go right intot he brakepad compound and fade it- it will not build residual heat into the fluid like how prolonged high heat/high friction pads and calipers will do.

Your biggest enemy is making sure you get all the air out of the system if you do install new fluid. most often I see people make things worse by not doing it correctly and leaving air in the lines/calipers/MC voids. Alot of master cylinders (MC) require bench bleeding if you let the old fuild run completely out of them.

Start will the LF wheel pumping and bleeding until the fluid runs clear, then go to RF, then one RF runs cleargo back to LF a few more beeds and then RF a few more bleeds- THen go the same for LR and RR. You basically want to ge thte old fluid out because all fluid develops moisture over time- EVEN sitting in a bottle on tthe shelf- yes it has shelf life. ALWAYS use a new unopened can.

Standard synthetic Valvoline Dot4 will work just fine- more than you will ever use temp wise.

Stay away from ceramic pads, they are crap. Trust me, I know brake systems and numerous brake pad compounds- itis one of my specialties coencides with chassis and suspension tuning. The very best brake pad compound anyone makes for street temp use is Stillen Metal Matrix compound(if the car is driven on the street at all it will need street temp pads- otherwise you will have no worky high tempo racing brake pads and will not stop when they are at prewarmed street operating temps- you need a pad that will work from at minimum 50* but best wil a 0* abrasive compound quality rather than a 400-600 adherent friction compound.

Trust me when I say keep away from the performace friction junk- OEM is beter. Hawks is expensive and only barely performs better. Porterfield R4-S is a nice compound but expensive and a bit grabby until warm, EBC is crap- they leave pad buildup on the rotors and a pusling feeling will develop in your brake pedal in no time.....in other words, I know my poop when it comes to brake compounds.

Trust me, get the Stillen metal Matric pads- You find anything better for street AND combined track use I will by them off of you- I am that confident and arrogant about my recommendation.

Stillen.com


Dean
(ps- I do not work for Stillen nor have I ever. I have run this pad compound for over 20 years in various cars. I have had racing setups that I have run o the street that I could not get a Stillen metal matricx compound for so I have tried everything under the sun trying to match there performance.)

[Vetruck]

Ps, next time i go oit to one of the local tracks for an event - Autox, time attack, or a private track rental, etc, I will invite you down for it. Youc an run your car with us and see what it is really like to race a car, not just some canyon wantabees with overpriced cars they think they are race pros just because tey can afford a high dollar car. THey are still on street tires, street alignments, and not getting the car up to track operating temps. I looked at a few of the pictures of the group and even see a Lambo or two in which I am a professional instructor in, I promise you they probably have never got those Lambos brakes up to even break a sweat on any kind of street or canyon cruise- THey do not even need that fluid.

Just a bunch of guys acting like bigshots until A guy like me calls them out and makes them look silly. You shoudlbe more concerned about busting an old worn tierod- but they said nothing to you about that0 heck, whats a tierod?

[vixen_w202]

Ps, next time i go oit to one of the local tracks for an event - Autox, time attack, or a private track rental, etc, I will invite you down for it. Youc an run your car with us and see what it is really like to race a car, not just some canyon wantabees with overpriced cars they think they are race pros just because tey can afford a high dollar car. THey are still on street tires, street alignments, and not getting the car up to track operating temps. I looked at a few of the pictures of the group and even see a Lambo or two in which I am a professional instructor in, I promise you they probably have never got those Lambos brakes up to even break a sweat on any kind of street or canyon cruise- THey do not even need that fluid.

Just a bunch of guys acting like bigshots until A guy like me calls them out and makes them look silly. You shoudlbe more concerned about busting an old worn tierod- but they said nothing to you about that0 heck, whats a tierod?

Lol, you're a funny and good guy Vetruck. Note taken.

I've wanted to get into AutoX but I really know nobody in the scene that does it. I've pretty much been stuck in the canyon crowd because it's not ghetto like street racing some shitty crx in a straight line with "JDM" lifestyle all over it.

Would love to come though. You have my number. Call anytime.

Looked for the pads for my car on Stillen's website, I couldn't find them. Can you send a link?

Also, if I still do wanna go, what are some things I can do to keep my brakes happy and not be overwhelmed by all the braking they're gonna do? My budget is limited as you've read, I've had to switch over to modding to strict upkeep for the time being. I'd be open to doing some tweaks but my playtime funds are running thin.

[vixen_w202]

Alright so I did notice a drain or place to extract the fluid on the resivoir because there seemed to be this little line coming out with a cap on it. Is this possibly an easier place to do the extraction with the extractor? It technically looks like that sort of thing, but the plastic plug that is on it I cannot remove.

[Vetruck]

I use a D645M on my 94 C220. I looked for your 96 C280 and you are correct their ssite is not showing an application. HOWEVER, I do know their site is not reliable as for what they do or do not make applications for. I know for instance the 82-92 Camaro 1le sport package rear brake pads are a D413m and they do stock them, even though the website has never been updated to show they even exist.

I just took a moment to restudy my Ceika brake post where I documented the rotor size changes for the different makes and years of W202's. Your 96 C280 has the same rotors and calipers as the 97 and later C230sports ands the C280. The rotor sizes are the same throught hose years as your car being the 11.34" front rotor and the 10.94" non-vented rear rotor. Those calipers are the same as my C220 which never changed, just rotor size. Your front pads are also the D645M part #. You can cross reference that by just using the 97 C280 as your vehicle choice rather than a 96.

{You can check my reference on posts #16 & 17 on this thread)
http://www.club202.com/forums/showthread.php?17805-CIEKA-bolt-on-aftermarket-brake-kits-for-W202-s

Jus tuse a turkey baster to suck out as much old fluid out of the MC, then just gently pou the new fuild on top of the remaining old fuild and start pumping and bleeding. You'll just spit out the remaining old fluid out of the caliper bleed screws.

[Vetruck]

As for if there is anything you can do to manage heat, just do not stop on hot brakes. If you are running hard enough that they are fading (you will feel the brake grab go away gradually if they overheat becasue you have to start pressing harder) then back off and slow down. If you have to ccome to a sudden stop then stop early and leave room to creep forward a fefeet every few seconds until the light changes. You never want to clamp a hot pad down onto a hot rotor surface and let it stay there in one spot for a while. The pad heat will disipate onto that tiny section of rotor and will transfer pad material s well as hotsopt the rotor and tur the iron surfae into Crystalite. It actually changes the property of iron at 1100* where it nolonger will accept heat dissipation in that section and pad buildup will occur worse and worse there over time leaving that warped feeling.

[Vetruck]

Crystalite? DUH, you can tell Im thirsty. I ment Cementite. Its where Iron crystalizes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementite

[Vetruck]

When I setup track events, I always require everyone to bring pushbrooms so we can sweep the track and increase grip. Things like this get the tires and brakes much hotter. You doing canyon runs will never get to these kind of temps we see in shortcourse driving. Shortcourse is much more demanding that longcourse because things are happening much quicker.

Here's one of my Dr Sake famous rockstar photo's. (Dr Sake- as in Japanesse rice wine- is one of my nicknames in the racing world). Racing nicknames are earned, not choosen.

[vixen_w202]

Sure! That's not a big issue. Let me know when you go to or plan another and I'd really like to come.

I'm glad I'm doing this mini restoration of sorts, but perhaps I need to be honest with myself. I just don't know if 2 hours of contant abuse, despite the drive being a total at the speed limit as declared by the coordinator but *brisk*, I just do not think my car is ready to roll with cars 20 times more expensive my car will ever be....and at the end of the day I'm worried that I might look like the runt of the pack. After all, what do I have in common with an Audi R8 owner or a Lamborghini driver with money coming out his left or right ear. I'm just a simple, low upkeep kinda guy that comes from a dumpy ghetto part of LA county.

Just dunno....I've done lots of canyon driving on my own but over 150-200 cars are going to show up to this and there's bound to be that one guy that messes it up for everyone..at least when I go solo if a cop pulls me over it's completely my fault. If that guy in the Bugatti decides to showoff, the cops show up and grieve everyone.


This is off topic, but the one thing I hate about ANY meet is that no matter what type of meet it is.....there is usually some hot ass (the good kind) rolling around in company with the owner. It's kinda funny too because usually once they get there, they get sucked into their phones and ignore everyone else. Just hate, hate, hate it.

I was engaged last year to a woman I'd rather forget....but dam I want dat hot ass with me at a meet rather than coming solo and screaming to everyone without saying it.....I'm terrible with women and don't know how to get a woman....

....lol, I crack myself up sometimes.

[Vetruck]

Sure! That's not a big issue. Let me know when you go to or plan another and I'd really like to come.

I'm glad I'm doing this mini restoration of sorts, but perhaps I need to be honest with myself. I just don't know if 2 hours of contant abuse, despite the drive being a total at the speed limit as declared by the coordinator but *brisk*, I just do not think my car is ready to roll with cars 20 times more expensive my car will ever be....and at the end of the day I'm worried that I might look like the runt of the pack. After all, what do I have in common with an Audi R8 owner or a Lamborghini driver with money coming out his left or right ear. I'm just a simple, low upkeep kinda guy that comes from a dumpy ghetto part of LA county.

Just dunno....I've done lots of canyon driving on my own but over 150-200 cars are going to show up to this and there's bound to be that one guy that messes it up for everyone..at least when I go solo if a cop pulls me over it's completely my fault. If that guy in the Bugatti decides to showoff, the cops show up and grieve everyone.


This is off topic, but the one thing I hate about ANY meet is that no matter what type of meet it is.....there is usually some hot ass (the good kind) rolling around in company with the owner. It's kinda funny too because usually once they get there, they get sucked into their phones and ignore everyone else. Just hate, hate, hate it.

I was engaged last year to a woman I'd rather forget....but dam I want dat hot ass with me at a meet rather than coming solo and screaming to everyone without saying it.....I'm terrible with women and don't know how to get a woman....

....lol, I crack myself up sometimes.

i would not worry about keeping pace with such a group- especially if there is over 20 cars (you stated 150+ I know). That is a hard group to simply keep together and will automatically break up into many smaller groups due to traffic constraints. Not everyone wants a ticket so there will be those that are wise and just keep to a crusing comfortable law abiding pace. CHP I am sure is already aware of this event. They have people constantly scanning most of the popular internet forums looking out for such events to police. Not their first rodeo.

We all have money constraints. If we didn't then 99% of us here would seriusly be driving alot higher dollar cars than these. Its about having something nice within your means of living. I have not had a car payment in 20 years nor do I want one. I only drive things I get deals on. My expensive cars are vintage and have been owned for decades or inherited. Lst new ca I bought was Vetruck in 1989 for 15K off a dealer lot new. had that paid off in 3 years and still own it today. I have a suga caddy 1985 Eldorado I bought for cheap off a friends late relative passing- had 45K original on it 4 years ago, I drive the wheels off that as my beater. The Merc I just picked up for $1200 from an acquaintance that couldn't smog it so he bought a new Lexus SUV and was gong to donate this car- I caught him the day before and welded a cat into it (it passed with flying colors). I gave it to my fiancee for her DD when her Toyota Corolla was totaled 5 months ago, otherwise it was going to replace the suga caddy as my DD beater. I have a vintage 1967 Austin MinicooperS project car on hold since my divorce 6 years ago. I am saving for a house again before I drop a dime into that project, An RV motorhome which I use alot going to the beach etc, and a little handbuilt gokart sandrail buggy that the size of my mini cooper(takes up a full garge space for the most part). Takes alot to keep all of that registered, smogged, and maintained. Plus my Vette racecar is stored at the family shop (1968 Stingray with 327ci 540 rwhp- one fast car. I used to be a race driver for Dick Guldstrand back in the 80's and 90's on his GRA race team- I still have that car today and is pretty much way too much for the street so it remains a garge queen. Cars are an expensive hobby. To top all that, My good friend (father like figure to me) is looking to buy us a G50 or A50 Porsche 964 Carrera Cabriolet to start POC club racing- and par tof the deal is I have to store it if he buys it. Trust me I know about maintinace funds :(

As for taking women to car events? I rarely do. That's my hobby and I have always left them at home if I can- less of a nuisance and distraction. I need to stay focused on my enjoyment and track/car prep rather than catering to a woman. That's what date night and dinner is for, not the race track. I am that rare guy that doesn;t want a woman into cars- its my hobby, she can go to the nail shop. I go to the track to hang with the guys and race, not to flaunt my woman and my large cashflow and small penis. I love taking cash from those guys at the track. About the only car place I'll take my woman is the Ferrari clothing store (we were in Waikiki- thus the bathingsuit attire- i do not own a Ferrari but as you know I am a profsesional driver for a Ferrari and Lambo racing experience company, as well as my good friend owns and lets me drive his F1 360 often around Newport Beach.

The last time we went to autox I was with another buddy who has a full rig and a 175K Katech full stage Z06 with 740hp. I was tteaching Tommy how to drive it on an autox course. I had one of my Camaro club guys out also mentoring him as well. We have fun at the track when we go, and we certainly make a presence and a memorable showing. You'll enjoy yourself. I will definately invite you next time we do an event.

[anf6789]

look up ANF6789 autox killer lol... thats my old green C280.. stock, dunlop allseasons, and I beat the piss out of it!! it was fun and could care less if people brought more expensive nice cars... I even came in second place in G stock... lost to an RSX-s.... Don't worry about the R8's and Ferraris, they'll probably end up around a tree anyway.