New EBC brake pads question:

[vixen_w202]

I have decided that since I have done this whirlwhind of repairs that seem successful, I am not going to do a full brake upgrade.....but on a website called THMotorsports.com, they sell the EBC Brake Pads - Greenstuff 2000 Series. It said it could handle cars up to 200 HP and have a more aggressive braking experience than what I have now. I know Vetruck kinda advised me against these, but the fronts were around 75 and the rears 43. It was affordable and in my budget, and sometimes my ability to buy parts go in an out like the tides, so I got them.

I know probably without a doubt I am going to have to have the rotor resurfaced as my ceramic pads have already broken in the rotors (EDIT: Hearing rumors you are NOT supposed to resurface Merc rotors). Before I started to tackle doing mods and work on my own, I had a mechanic do a full brake job on my 202 about 17-20k ago. He said the front rotors were fine and they just resurfaced them, but the backs needed new replacements. I have new ones in the back.

My question is this; once I get these can I just have the rotors resurfaced to start clean with the new performance pads? Will they offer increased braking power even on stock rotors (and yes I flushed my system on all 4 corners with high temp brake fluid), or do I need to buy a performance rotor as well to get the most out of these? My budget after all the money I dumped in preventative maintenance is kind of limited, whatever will get me the most bang for my buck I will end up getting.

Let me know, let me know if you know of a good rotor that will fit our cars but won't break the bank.

[anf6789]

why do you have to get the rotors resurfaced? are they pulsating or warped?

[vixen_w202]

why do you have to get the rotors resurfaced? are they pulsating or warped?

I've never done a performance pad, let along brakes for that matter. So I honestly don't know if I can run them as-is on my current rotors. The pads kinda squeak, but I think some dirt got in there. That's it. I'm just asking so I get maximum performance and I don't do any damage to the rotors I got on there now.

[Denlasoul]

With such a hard pad, make sure not to go too cheap on rotor quality. They may warp faster than usual. Maybe go with Brembo OE replacements.

[Vetruck]

Just get a good set of Nappa premium rotors, Or just have yours turned.

FACT: ALL rotors are fine to turn (were not talking carbon fiber race rotors) matter of fact you should always to turn them even new out of the box becasue they can warp sitting too long on a shelf believe it ofr not. They should have a runout tolerance of about .003".

When ever changing brake pad compound- especially- you should turn the rotors to remove any pad buildup of the old pad compound. Brake pads wok off of partial abrasive friction, and partial adherent friction. Adherent friction is where pad material is layed onto the surface of the rotor through "bedding" or "conditioning" of the rotor surface. WHa tit does is when a hot enough temperature is reached, friction is created when the pad compound brakes molecule bonds and then reattaches them. Foriegn pad materials are not always compatible and will sometimes not make a performance copound work as well as it is designed because of old pad contamination on the rotor surface.

You are better off with older rotors that are turned as long as they have enough meat left on them to cut off and remain over the minimum allowed thickness- It is stamped on each rotor hub by law what that rotor's minimum throw away tolerance is.

Why is an older rotor better for you? Well if you do not understand brakes well, it will be easier for you to break in so to speak a new compound on an already "heat cycled" rotor. New rotors have to be brought up to heat gradually several times and re cooled several times (onlyy done properly by letting them rest for hours between use_ so as to heat cycle and condition the iron to accept hhigh heat well and not hot spot the rotor surface.. You should always condition new rotors with a set of old pads, never new rotors and new pads.

[Vetruck]

Also, the best performance brake compund around by far is Stillen Metal matrix compound pads if you can get them for your application. I know they sell fronts for my car (94 C220) but do not show the rears on their terrible website. best to always call them to order the pads. BUT TRUST ME, THEY ARE BETTER THAN HAWKS OR EBC guys!!!! The EBC green compound WILL leave pad buildup on the rotor face within a few months of repeated hard use. They are notorious for that and will need to be turned to get the loump of buildup off the surface so the pedal does not pulse.

[vixen_w202]

Also, the best performance brake compund around by far is Stillen Metal matrix compound pads if you can get them for your application. I know they sell fronts for my car (94 C220) but do not show the rears on their terrible website. best to always call them to order the pads. BUT TRUST ME, THEY ARE BETTER THAN HAWKS OR EBC guys!!!! The EBC green compound WILL leave pad buildup on the rotor face within a few months of repeated hard use. They are notorious for that and will need to be turned to get the loump of buildup off the surface so the pedal does not pulse.

Vetruck, I wanted you to know....

I did not ignore you, if it looks like I did I'm sorry. There is a motorsports website I order some of my parts through, and they were having a huge sale on EBC products. Because of this sale, the greenstuff pads were so affordable it made no sense not to get them right them and there. Otherwise, other pads were just out of my finance range. Finances have prevented me from upgrading my braking system (except for Prestone high-heat DOT 3 fluid completely flushed and added to the system with the help of a friend, took the Motul back due to price) and because things were in my price range, it was finally in my reach to start giving the brakes some more bite. Also on stillen's site, they had a huge markdown on a set of stillen brand cross-drilled rear rotors for 74 dollars with shipping, and I'm going to call tomorrow and order the fronts which are going for a ridiculous closeout price due to low demand. My dream of actually being to able to come to a proper stop is coming true.

But after this, I'm calling it quits for quite some time and just enjoyed the newly refreshed car. Unless it's some rinky dink thing i need to install the rotors and pads, I'm calling my car a success and I'll just enjoy it. I've been constantly working on this thing and I've done less time just driving it and far more time upgrading and repairing.

Vetruck, I understand your feelings on this setup, but I would like to visit you one day. Maybe when all this stuff comes I could buy you lunch and we could put these on? I'd do it in my garage but it's small and hard to work in. The pads are going to be 7-9 days to come to my door because they are special order. Rotors will be here next week but I gotta wait for the pads.

[kowalski]

i wouldn't put ABC pads on my Benz.
go for Jurid, Portersfield or Akebono

[Vetruck]

You paid 75 for fronts on the EBC crap (sorry, but I'd NEVER use EBC green pads as I already explained why)
The Stillen front pads are $60 and free shipping
http://www.stillen.com/product/brake-pads/metal-matrix-high-performance-brake-pads--mtl-mtrx-pad-set-front-mb-9496-c220-9798-c230-9495-c280-28435.html

[Vetruck]

I gotta say My head is starting to hurt. I went back over becasue I like to check my references on cross fitting part #'s and I am getting answer that are all over the book. I don't know what to think anymore on these cars.

Why?

I have seen pad cross references that show the smae D645M pad uses on both the 94 C220 and the 97 C280. Yet I am seeing mostly different applications when it comes to calipers. I know there are sensor calipers and non-sensor calipers, but even Non vs Non throught he years seem different. I see other sites that reference the C220 pad with one # and the C280 1997 car with another part # like Napa and Autozone, etc- which contradict the reference I saw showing they are the same. I have seen picture images that show different shape single piston front calipers- one with narrow bolt spread, one with wide-bioth non PBR. The PBR from my undeerstanding is the two piston C36 caliper. This stuff is crazy to try and get creeditable references

At this point Vixen, Im going to bow out of any recommendation becasue I can not confirm what you need on your car, not can I on mine based on seeing listings an various websites that conflict. I have read stories on here of a few people not getting the correct pads for what the ordered for so I am starting to think this stuff is not reliable unless you physically take oput you pads and match them up with new ones at the parts store.
All GM cars have a Dxxx reference # and are very accurate in reference. I am seeing D645, D731, D7538, D916, as well as numerous other (must be european) numbers.

[anf6789]

it took me a long ass time to figure out what pads were right for my 97 C36 alot of manufaturers (akebono) had the wrong part# in there catalogue.. MB is usually good about things using all the same parts... except brakes it seems.

[Vetruck]

Now here's another site showing 645's

I am seeing these front pads I use on my 94 C220 are used on the 94-96 C220's, the 97-00 C230's, The 95 C36 AMG, and the 97-00 C280's.

What's weird is the 94-96 C280's say they will not fit- yet the 94-96 C220's do.

Check this site for reference- FCPEuro.com. You can put in any year you want and watch what fits and what doesn't. It's strange what they did on the 94-96 C280's. Seems like they used a different caliper trying to ge the strange sized rotors they were changing also those years to work.

What also puzzles me is when a few of you say you have terrible brakes. My car actually has very good quality brakes. They have a very good feel and are 100% OEM- and remeber I race cars as well as I am a lead instrutor in lambos and Ferraris for a performance driving experience company. I know what it takes to use brakes hard so when I say I have good OEM brakes- I have very good OEM brakes- Not great, but as good as the 2012 Mercedes do. My car is also 250lbs lighter up front than the C280's though- could be a big part of the factor as well as a few of you might not be using OEM quality pads which cheap autozone knockoffs would be inferior to Mercedes OEM quality.

Here's that site with the 645 pads-

http://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mercedes-brake-pad-set-front-c220-c230-c280-w202-eur645

[Vetruck]

it took me a long ass time to figure out what pads were right for my 97 C36 alot of manufaturers (akebono) had the wrong part# in there catalogue.. MB is usually good about things using all the same parts... except brakes it seems.

That site shows the 645 pad does NOT fit your 97 c36, but it fits the 95 C36

[Vetruck]

Here's some more info.
94 C220 and C280 the same calipers, pads, and rotors (front rotors 11.18", rear rotors 10.3125" )
95 C280 has same fronts/ but went to different rear pads calipers, and rotors (Fronts 11.18", rears 10.94"
96 Fronts and rears all completely different.(Fronts 11.34" rotors, rears 10.94" rotors)
Now my "assumption" is they went to a different caliper design on the fronts to get the getter radius offset of the slightly larger rotors used- In doing so, what ever caliper that is does NOT use the same style pad and looks and sounds to be an inferior design over the caliper style used on the C220 those years with the 645 pad.

Then, since in 97-00 all of the base brake option cars had the 11.34" front rotors, and 10.94" rear rotors, they changed to the same style ccaliper used on the smallewr brake C220 since it was effective- but yet it has the greater offset in mounting lugs for the 11.34" rotors. (I oforgot to note that all 94-96 C220's stayed with the 11.18" front rotors even thought the 96 C280 changed to the larger one)

it appears the front 96 C280 caliper is the odd ball. Wonder if yoiu can swap to a 97-00 standard caliper which appears to be better design? It must mbe why my 94 C220 brakes feel great and reports from you say your feel terrible.?? I don;t know but it appears this might hold water- I just can't list it as fact. I'll keep digging a little deeper.

[Vetruck]

96 C220 caliper is different from 94-95 C220- yet holds the same pad and uses the same rotor diameter (11.18")

Im starting to think there was a change in the spindle design when Mercedes also changed the suspension coil setup. The control arms both top and bottom are the same. Something is up though on the caliper part #'s being changed that year. Im looking at NAPA's reference charts

95 C36 on Napa shows a D858DP pad- However- when I cross reference a regular D858 pad it does not fit a C36 caliper. It must be a made up # where I see the DP stands for "deluxe plus". It looks just like the D645M pads

96-97 C36 pads are D916 and are larger dual piston PBR calipers. I am very familiar with the company PBR. They make all the OEM high perfomance stuff for GM cars in the 80's and 90's. The standard stuff was Delco-Marraine. Gm hipo stuff is D412 front and D413 rears usually where as the standard stuff was D154 on GM cars(I have those # memorized from years of use)

[Vetruck]

Now this is strange. It goes against what I just wrote about possible spindle changes in 96.
On NAPA's website the 96 C280 front left caliper is the smae exact part # as the 97 C280 caliper. Now as stated- I cross checked and the Euro site above shows the D645M pad will fit the 97 C280 caliper.

I think I know what is going on here.
I seriously now think MB speced out different brake pad compounds for thos year cars even though the pads will interchange- It has to be why there are different part #'s- makes logical sense it could be the same pad fitment but just different friction material. in racing, different friction coefficiants are used to help correct poor brake bias front to rear.

Fuck- who knows!!!!

Just pull the pads and match them up to new ones at your local parts store. Otherwise you may have a surprise if you are in a ruch brake job and find out you have the wrong things.

[Vetruck]

When a guy like me that knows how to research gets confused??? Man I feel sorry for the amatuer do-it-yourselfer with these foriegn Luxo boxes. I can see why people sell them for cheap becasue the repair shops know the average person can get lost real quick with all the technical confusion. MB is the car parts lawyers of the world- they do this bullshit just to try and confuse the masses so they can rip you off.

[vixen_w202]

When a guy like me that knows how to research gets confused??? Man I feel sorry for the amatuer do-it-yourselfer with these foriegn Luxo boxes. I can see why people sell them for cheap becasue the repair shops know the average person can get lost real quick with all the technical confusion. MB is the car parts lawyers of the world- they do this bullshit just to try and confuse the masses so they can rip you off.

Vetruck, I agree....but at the same time I really do like my car. However, try compounding that problem with the additional fact for me I am the last stop in Northern LA County. You walk into a parts store and either call out an MB part number they laugh at you or they just get really confused. At least living down in the greater LA area there's some actual physical support, but when things come up on my car I really have no choice due to a limited budget and get it fixed myself.

P.S. Happy to say that all my leaks around the valve cover are absolutely gone and my starting issue stopped too, but it still smokes occasionally towards the back near the firewall.

[Denlasoul]

You are right, this stuff is very difficult to understand. I found that looking up the OEM part number online will often tell you the compatibility of your part to other MYs.

MBZspecialist has a good online catalog. I then check that against GenuineMercedesParts because this site lists the other MYs that use the part number you punch in.

So say you need pads for a 98 C43. Look up that item on MBZ, get the part number, and punch that in at GMP. GMP will list the applications of that part number, and thus show you compatibility. With that info, go ahead and order an aftermarket pad that fits the MYs listed which you now know fits. :)