Centre lock wheels

[dokotela]

Well to be honest i never thought this day would come but an opportunity has come that i cannot afford to pass up. I am offered a set of OZ racing wheels that were used in dtm racing and they are centre lock. How hard is it to convert to centre lock?

Any inputs???
Vetruck maybe....

[John Jones Jr.]

Well, if they're magnesium (I'd reckon they must be) you'll need to get them crack tested and if you do damage one where does that leave you? Wheel hub adapters are available, seen them fitted to 190E's & 3 Series. Have a look on Team Stadler Motorsort site, Thorsten there sells centre lock alloys for the W201 & W202's, so I presume he does a fitting kit also.

[dokotela]

Thanks john. That's a good start. Wheels have been tested and are fine.

[atikovi]

What is the advantage of center lock wheels on a street car? I thought they put them on race cars for quick tire changes in the pits.

[John Jones Jr.]

The only advantage I can think of is light weight for a road car. The lighter the wheels the better.

[atikovi]

I don't think saving 5 or 10 pounds on a set wheels on a 3,500 pound sedan will make any perceptable difference. Maybe if the driver lost those 5 or 10 pounds instead.

[John Jones Jr.]

Is it only 5 or 10 pounds on a set of wheels? Then you have to allow for the fact it's unsprung weight, thus losing pounds is far more crucial, no?

[atikovi]

Not sure but pretty sure he wants them for the looks more than any performance gain.

[John Jones Jr.]

I think you'd want to check out Dokotela's cars first before jumping to conclusions...And, even if he wants them just for looks which I doubt, is that a crime?

[atikovi]

OZ makes some nice wheels so it's no crime to like them.

[John Jones Jr.]

And you point of all these posts? BTW, did check out the weight difference between the everyday OZ alloys or whatever and DTM wheels?

[Vetruck]

Well to be honest i never thought this day would come but an opportunity has come that i cannot afford to pass up. I am offered a set of OZ racing wheels that were used in dtm racing and they are centre lock. How hard is it to convert to centre lock?

Any inputs???
Vetruck maybe....

To convert you would have to have an entirely different front suspension utilizing a large spindle upright. Like this- this would in no way fit onto a w202 chassis without extensive modification and fabrication.
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpt=Version_1_Fabricated_Upright&form_pic_id=1419_1&action=product_picture

Running knock-off's on a street car is very dangerous. You really would need to safety wire the nut or knockoff onto the wheel to make sure it does not come loose. If you are an avid racing fan, I am sure you have seen many times over the years a prototype race car loose a wheel shortly after a pitstop when a crew member does not get the single wheelnut on tight enough.

I personally would never run one. Just my 2 cents.

[Vetruck]

Also, the wheels are not necessarily lighter in weight because of the center lock nut instead of lugs- on the contray, a 5 lug wheel is just about the same in wheel if used identical in design. What the large spindle upright is beneficial for is strength and mainly wheel bearing size for racing forces and heat.

[John Jones Jr.]

Vetruck, do you reckon a centre lock hub assy(stub axle/spindle assy, whatever) & DTM wheel is the same weight as five stud hub assy & common alloy wheel (as per a standard Merc alloy wheel) presuming both are the same size wheel?

[Vetruck]

Vetruck, do you reckon a centre lock hub assy(stub axle/spindle assy, whatever) & DTM wheel is the same weight as five stud hub assy & common alloy wheel (as per a standard Merc alloy wheel) presuming both are the same size wheel?


It is not a far comparison becuase pretty much all types of large spindle assemblies are far more expensive with exotic lightweight materials- as opposed to OEM heavy steel and iron 5 lug assemblies. If both were machined of compatible materials, then weights would not be much savings becuase genrally you are running larger bearings and larger claipers. rotors etc compared to the OEm stuff on the car now. It really is not a real world comparison because so much has to be done to run those wheels it would not be worth it unless you were building a chassis from scratch.

now if we are talking wheel vs wheel? by using a 5 lug adapter into a center stud to mount those wheels onto an OEM w202 suspension assembly? No the center lug would be heavier with the adapter and having to still run 5 lugs hidden underneath.

[Vetruck]

You are talking fabricating an entire different suspension and brake rotor assembly just to run a center lug wheel merely for rapid wheel changing. It is not that much lighter, it is only quicker, but yet far more dangerous for daily street use. It is not DOT rated and you could really get you ass sued if someone were hurt or killed as a result of this modification for public hwy use.

https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/2fd9f7bf458382a5789c3f64e7fd4327/original.jpg

[Vetruck]

It is also like running racing tires that are not DOT rated. It is illegal. Race parts are not always stronger, matter of face, race tires in particular are far more dangerous because they do not have the steel belt reinforcement mass a street tire has- they can come apart much easier expecially if you hit debris on the road.

[John Jones Jr.]

It is not a far comparison

But that is the comparision, that's what the thread is about. Dokotela wants to fit them to his road/track car.

[Vetruck]

Lastly, kind of on the same note or subject, they do not allow wheel adapters on race cars either for the simpole reason that some of the lug nuts are hidden from view. In a pit tire change, how do you know the inner lugs are secure? also most wheel adapters will also push out the wheel into a more positive scrub radius that will load the wheel bearings uneven and overheat them much faster. The outer bearing is strained on the bottom and the inner on the top. Whent he scrub is 0 then both bearings are loaded equally.

Thus using a wheel adapter to run a DTM center lug on an OEM 5 lug suspension assembly will push the wheel outward most likely a fair amount and cause this positive scrub. It will throw off wheel rates, track width, ackerman, and the call will pull left and right over road imperfections under hard braking and make for a very unpleasant driver control.

[Vetruck]

But that is the comparision, that's what the thread is about. Dokotela wants to fit them to his road/track car.

he is far better getting wheel that fit and allow the geometry to functionas engineered, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel...pun intended.

[John Jones Jr.]

he is far better getting wheel that fit and allow the geometry to functionas engineered, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel...pun intended.

Just answer the simple question I asked. And no need to talk about adapters because I never mentioned those to you, as you don't need an adapter to fit centre lock wheels, as you know very well, all that's required is the correct hub assy/spindle/stub axle.

[Vetruck]

Just answer the simple question I asked. And no need to talk about adapters because I never mentioned those to you, as you don't need an adapter to fit centre lock wheels, as you know very well, all that's required is the correct hub assy/spindle/stub axle.

WTF? I did. I explained everything about having to convert to large spindle uprights. Read what I wrote.

[Vetruck]

You know JJJ, I don;t know what just got up your ass but I have always been polite and helpful. I come into here because I was asked to answer something so I did, If you are better informed then why don't you answer his question from here out. Bye.

[John Jones Jr.]

Well, Vetruck I'm sorry you feel that way. I asked you a very simple & straight forward question on back of something you wrote and twice you didn't bother answer it, why I'm unsure but I'm sure you know. And if I was better informed than you I wouldn't be asking the question in the first place, would I...And just bear this in mind, if you hadn't wrote anything I wouldn't have asked you!

[dokotela]

Thanks guys for all the input. Didn't mean for this thread to offend anyone. The wheels are period correct w201 dtm wheels.
I know about the safety aspects but consider that the Porsche Carrera GT is centre lock...as well the AC Cobras were centre lock as well. Even current AC Cobra replicas produced here and exported to the rest of the globe are centre lock. I will be visiting them tomorrow to find out more. I think they are using adapters. And from what I've heard they are quite slim. I will have a look tomorrow. Also, I know about the opposite lock for the other side of the car....if u get that wrong, then the nut can get loose and your wheel can come off. The wheels are for road use and purely for aesthetics. Just saw a motor for the same car and seriously considering it...2.5-16. Cross your fingers guys. Hope these 2 deals work out.

[dokotela]

Just checked out erebuni.net
They have centre lock kits for $130

[Vetruck]

Well, Vetruck I'm sorry you feel that way. I asked you a very simple & straight forward question on back of something you wrote and twice you didn't bother answer it, why I'm unsure but I'm sure you know. And if I was better informed than you I wouldn't be asking the question in the first place, would I...And just bear this in mind, if you hadn't wrote anything I wouldn't have asked you!

Read your post 14, and then the bottom of my post 15- Ill say bluntly, you had your head up you ass on that one. I did answer the question.

Now the OP is posting a link to the exact type of wheel adapters I was talking about in the bottom of my post 15. It will be heavier.

[Vetruck]

Why is it heavier? You take just the wheel alone and the center lock/lug wheel is slightly lighter because there is no mass around where the lugnuts need to be. However, the adapter and lugnuts needed to hold the apadpter will have the same if not more mass (most likely more since the wheel will sit outward in track width like I previously decribed in my posts above) and will create a more positive scrub radius which is bad for alignment as well as wheel bearings) then lastly you have the weight if the snout oif the adapter and the wieght of the lock nut- so overall, you loose safety, throw off geometry, and gain unsprung wieght. 3 bads. Better off buying wheels that just fit the standard 5 lug. again, my 2 cents. I am not telling anyone what to do, I am just arming you with info and my opinion.


have a good day all.

[wichipong]

hush down gents..

[dokotela]

thanks for all the tech info vetruck. as i mentioned previously, the fitment will be purely for aesthetic gain.
if you look at most if not all my cars, you will notice that a lot of the technical detail detail you mention is stuff i often overlook intentionally purely for aesthetics.
i like pushing the boundaries in the style dept, lol. engine performance is always very important so i dont muck around with that as will be seen soon in a few updates.
i like to keep my options open in terms of reversibility of a mod, so these adapters, if applicable, will work well for me in my quest to run dtm wheels on my road-going 201...and maybe the 202 also just for fun.

[John Jones Jr.]

Dok, there's a photo of centre lock OZ DTM reps (€650 ea! from what I recall) with suitable C/L hubs (no adapters required). The hubs can purchased off the shelf from Germany.

Edit: A bit little more info for you.

4 x C/l hubs €1200
1 x OZ or Speedline 9x18 reps €650

No weight difference between C/L hub & standard 5 stud hub. The combined weight of 9x18 rep + C/L hub = combined weight of 8x16 standard Merc alloy + 5 stud hub. So, you should have a good weight saving using original DTM wheels.

[dokotela]

Dok, there's a photo of centre lock OZ DTM reps (€650 ea! from what I recall) with suitable C/L hubs (no adapters required). The hubs can purchased off the shelf from Germany.

Edit: A bit little more info for you.

4 x C/l hubs €1200
1 x OZ or Speedline 9x18 reps €650

No weight difference between C/L hub & standard 5 stud hub. The combined weight of 9x18 rep + C/L hub = combined weight of 8x16 standard Merc alloy + 5 stud hub. So, you should have a good weight saving using original DTM wheels.


thats super info John. thanks a lot bro. but 1200euro for the hub conversion will throw this wheel fitment way way way out of the ball park. and the price of those reps is ludicrous dont u think?
i think i might end up making my own adapters. the wheels have 10 holes at the back for the locating pins and i've seen many companies use just 5. so maybe i will use wheel bolts with a long enough head to protrude and act as a locating pin. since its all gonna be custom it shouldnt be too hard to do. i'll get some more info.

[John Jones Jr.]

Yeah, Dok 1200 is very big money and there's no way I'd pay 650ea for reps (awesome look and all), even if they are a little lighter too. The reason I'm somewhat interested in the C/L's is that, I've a mate who was very keen at one point on fitting C/L to his track 190 and we were discussing these before but costs got in the way (no surprise). Now, he did say that he was able to get a standard hub modified to take the a C/L wheel but that involved using a good engineering shop and costs would be much less than the 1200 quoted. So, maybe it is possible to convert the hub, don't really know as it hasn't actually been done to the 190 as of yet.

[Vetruck]

Dok, there's a photo of centre lock OZ DTM reps (€650 ea! from what I recall) with suitable C/L hubs (no adapters required). The hubs can purchased off the shelf from Germany.

Edit: A bit little more info for you.

4 x C/l hubs €1200
1 x OZ or Speedline 9x18 reps €650

No weight difference between C/L hub & standard 5 stud hub. The combined weight of 9x18 rep + C/L hub = combined weight of 8x16 standard Merc alloy + 5 stud hub. So, you should have a good weight saving using original DTM wheels. Is there a link to purchase these or a picture to see them? I am very curious to see how they are configured.

I am seeing adapter setup only that require driling the adapter to fit any application - these are $1200us and still have lugnuts which make the assembly hevier as i have stated. I would really like to see this entire center lock hub assembly that replaces the OEM hub and brake assembly.

here's the typical cnter lock adapter-
1628

http://www.forgeline.com/products/center-lock-wheels-and-center-lock-conversion/center-lock-conversion/flush-loc-conversion.html?seo_category_name=center-lock-conversion&seo_product_name=flush-loc-conversion&large=1&asdf=3#q3