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View Full Version : C36; squeezing out 25 more HP



walden
11-05-2003, 04:19 PM
hello,
would it be difficult to squeeze out 25 more HP from a 1997 C36?

J Irwan
11-05-2003, 08:44 PM
I have powerchip on my car

check out their website (www.powerchipgroup.com)





Regardz,

jnolte
11-06-2003, 01:08 AM
Rig up your own Cold Air intake outta the front bumper air dam. 2phast did this look at www.2phast.com

CKlasse
11-06-2003, 07:30 AM
I think intake, chip, and exhaust would gain you about that much.

moebiusgold
11-06-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by J Irwan
I have powerchip on my car

check out their website (www.powerchipgroup.com)





Regardz,

So, Which one do yu have? I can only get 92 octane here and am not into fooling around with cans of toxic stuff every tankfull. Been there done that. I never found anything that worked better than 2 to 4gal. of Trick. either. Chip wouldn't do me a lot of good if the knock sensing is cranking back the timing. Seems like a better deal than http://www.hs-elektronik.com/datenblatt-e/mercedes-c36-amg.html Thanks for the link!

moebiusgold
11-06-2003, 06:46 PM
http://www.hs-elektronik.com/datenblatt-e/mercedes-c36-amg.html Hope this came out better

J Irwan
11-06-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by moebiusgold
So, Which one do yu have? I can only get 92 octane here and am not into fooling around with cans of toxic stuff every tankfull. Been there done that. I never found anything that worked better than 2 to 4gal. of Trick. either. Chip wouldn't do me a lot of good if the knock sensing is cranking back the timing. Seems like a better deal than http://www.hs-elektronik.com/datenblatt-e/mercedes-c36-amg.html Thanks for the link!


I had Powerchip almost 3 years now.
Back then when I bought it I have to sent my ECU to Australia.
I have PowerGold98 program which I assume is the equivalent of 93 octane here in the state...



Regardz,

Denlasoul
11-06-2003, 08:25 PM
J-

Do you think the mod was worth it? Is there a noticeable difference in performance? Have you had any before/after dyno runs? I am just curious to your thoughts, b/c I heard that chipping a car to remap the air/fuel is not that effective...well, compared to a turbo or s/c car. Also, have you had any problems with the compatibility with the ECU?

I was considering having a Unichip done, but my local guy said it was difficult with MB's. Not too sure what to think. I was going to go with Upsolute, but there service out here is not that great so I decided to cancel my chip.

Thanks

DLS

J Irwan
11-06-2003, 08:41 PM
There are definitely some better effect

for one the idle is smoother
the throttle response is better. (off course it's even great after I have my CAI)
You can feel the car is stronger, the obvious changes is when accelerating from 60-100mph is noticeable quicker,
Unfortunately I didn't do dyno before and after.
But nonetheless, the power is there and I thought I was just imagining...:p


but I have proven it on the street many times that my car is stronger than stock C36 ;).
I can even shadow a stock C32 twice (the same late 40's dude that was trying to race me). He was in front of me on the traffice light, then he punched it and I punched it too. And guess what I was surprised at the result. He could not shake me and I was about 1 car length behind him all the way to 70mph and then we let go.
I was so surprised that he couldn't shake me. Theoritically his car should be a lot faster than mine.

This and my CAI is the most worthy expensenve I have so far, other than suspension.

Off course ICE is different topic :p

Another member Dan The AMG Man also has Powerchip and satisfied with the result.


PS:I could do a lil burn-out from a standstill even with my 255/35/18 (either my old Conti or my P-Zero Nero) without doing a brake stand... ;p


Regardz,

Denlasoul
11-06-2003, 08:54 PM
Thanks J

I was initially going for the Upsolute chip, but their service really detered me from finishing up on the product. Then after talking to Speedy and some others, I was gonig to go with a custom Unichip setup. My local guy seemed unsure about applying it to my car, something along the lines of the ECU adapting poorly. Either way, I havent found a good chip to try on my car.

Maybe I'll just do a s/c or build a better NA engine (with Speedys help).

DLS

J Irwan
11-06-2003, 09:02 PM
I was thinking of going for Unichip before as well

But I did get a good response from them...


the probably thinks I am nuts to mess with my car...
well you know Benz Tuning wasn't exactly popular back then.

it's started getting more and more popular these days...


but still not much option for our old cars :(


I think what I have done, is probably going to be as good as it gets without doing custom cam, port-polishing, and re-programmed to go with it..

But I hope CKlasse finish the C36 exhaust tuning with special price for me.. :p then I could expect another 10-15 rwhp again wooo hoo...


My dream goal is actually to get close to 350 hp NA which is very possible with very aggressive ECU-remap, along with bigger injector, port-polishing, cam re-ground... but that's just going to cost me more $$$$


(PS: someone already done this, they use stand-alone Engine management I think split-second on his C36 transplant 190E and producing 350hp/380lb-ft NA :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: .
You could check it out at 190 revoultion website. That thing really kick ass and have 5 spd manual tranny too. The claimed time for 0-60 if I remember corretly somewhere 4.6 sec)

but I'll settle with what I have for now (and maybe ...maybe CKlass BMS tuning exhaust ;) , and then save some money to mod my next car ;)



Regardz,

2phast
11-06-2003, 09:23 PM
The cold air intake is a good idea to boost HP but don't go the route I did on my C36, its too easy to ingest water and you don't want to risk hydrolock.

Didn't J Irwan do a nice carbon fiber air intake? Don't remember who did it but it was very nice.

J Irwan
11-06-2003, 09:24 PM
Den,

This is the 190 with C36 transplant engine that I am talking about


Here (http://mb190.tripod.com/readers/Carlos.html) ;)

Enjoy :D:D:D


Regardz,

jnolte
11-06-2003, 09:26 PM
J Irwan

what is a CAI? How does it help throttle response?? how much did you pay for it?


thanks

J Irwan
11-06-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by 2phast
The cold air intake is a good idea to boost HP but don't go the route I did on my C36, its too easy to ingest water and you don't want to risk hydrolock.

Didn't J Irwan do a nice carbon fiber air intake? Don't remember who did it but it was very nice.



that was me Rik ;)


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwDLAnETNYjBE15oNSoGh6xJlpCs6D*!LmfdoWopStpZnR7lF AX8hSBu0C64YWwbVx7F31*IL!OhjfKdDYYL5HenQhHtcfBPYSw lBrZZ*Aw/111-1148_IMG.JPG



Regardz,

2phast
11-06-2003, 09:35 PM
Ah, now thats a cold air intake :D

Denlasoul
11-06-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by jnolte
J what is a CAI? How does it help throttle response?? how much did you pay for it?

CAI= cold air intake. It helps throttle response by having dense cold air going into the engine, instead of less dense warm-hot air.

jnolte
11-06-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Denlasoul
CAI= cold air intake. It helps throttle response by having dense cold air going into the engine, instead of less dense warm-hot air.


HAHHAHA i feel stoopid now!! I know what a CAI is, I just havent ever seen it abbreviated like that. my bad!!


thanks for answering my question tho D!

J Irwan
11-06-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Denlasoul
CAI= cold air intake. It helps throttle response by having dense cold air going into the engine, instead of less dense warm-hot air.


Plus now I have more straight though and shorter air-route rather doing then going down then back up like the stock-Airbox.

I would think that's the biggest improvement of this setup ...no more sharper corner ..

even at idle that mouth-opening next to headlight you can feel the suction force when you stick your finger in :p



Regardz,

MrSpace
11-07-2003, 03:23 AM
wow, check out the improvements with the chiptuning on the C230K:

http://www.hs-elektronik.com/datenblatt-e/mercedes-c230k-193ps-280nm.html

goes to ~235HP!!!!
plus top speed up to 252km/h woahhh

The price (EUR 1499) is waaaay steep compared to upsolute

Etienne

DougandhisC280
11-07-2003, 09:06 AM
even at idle that mouth-opening next to headlight you can feel the suction force when you stick your finger in

So what about driving in the rain?

Three Point 6
11-07-2003, 09:29 AM
After looking at the pics here on this thread i'll show yall a pic of my crossover tube on my C36. The 190's looks bigger and has 3.6 written on it. Mine doesnt. I've seen some C36's tubes and some have 3.6 & some dont? Anybody know whats up with that?

Heres mine...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/p2796f29cb787f055467e086050d0665f/fac0aece.jpg

Here is the 190's tube....
http://mb190.tripod.com/readers/Carlos.html

Is it me or do the crossover tubes look alot different?

CKlasse
11-07-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by DougandhisC280
So what about driving in the rain?

Just as any other CAI, not an issue. Unless you build an underbody scoop - vacuum machine style! :D

J Irwan
11-07-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Three Point 6
After looking at the pics here on this thread i'll show yall a pic of my crossover tube on my C36. The 190's looks bigger and has 3.6 written on it. Mine doesnt. I've seen some C36's tubes and some have 3.6 & some dont? Anybody know whats up with that?

Heres mine...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/p2796f29cb787f055467e086050d0665f/fac0aece.jpg

Here is the 190's tube....
http://mb190.tripod.com/readers/Carlos.html

Is it me or do the crossover tubes look alot different?


Kylie.

The one on the 190E isprobably custom ( I am not sure ,as It looks similar to mine), I do notice that your intake plenum and Mine is different. Mine seems to be bigger in diameter..


(Edit: it seems that your intake plenum is not original C36..??, maybe other can show us 95-96 engine bay shot. Maybe the previous owner to cheap replacing the original plenum and go with this 2.8L/3.2L plenum.. )




Originally posted by DougandhisC280
So what about driving in the rain?

I just ease on the gas pedal when it's raining hard.(I have to be carefull sinceI don't want to intake to swallow any water :p )

But rain is only couple of days in a year so I am not that concerns :D:D:D




Regardz,

speedybenz
11-07-2003, 10:05 AM
3.6,

Your crossover tube is pretty bad compared to J Irwin's. Yours is flatter with less volume and then makes a hard 90 bend at the end. That last bend is a Hp killer.

See if you can update to the Intake like whats on J Irwins C36.

Jeff

J Irwan
11-07-2003, 11:08 AM
Kylie,

Even Rik's (2phast) 95 C36 has similar intake plenum like mine..

yours, I am almost certain is not a C36 stock intake plenum pipe..


Here is Rik 95 C36 intake plenum (sorry for taken your pic Rik :p )

Although is plenum is flatter than mine, but there is no 90 deg elbow prior to the Throttle Body..

http://www.2phast.com/C36/c36_noairbox.jpg



Regardz,

speedybenz
11-07-2003, 12:48 PM
J Irwin, If you send me your MAS sensor body I will bore it out for no cost. Just curious to see if it makes a difference.

But if you really wanted to make a difference then send me the whole intake system including the intake manifold.

Jeff

2phast
11-07-2003, 12:52 PM
My C36 was a early production 95 model also. Sounds like someone swapped your out to a non-C36 unit

moebiusgold
11-07-2003, 04:26 PM
Look at the MAS wire. Yours goes around the front of the tube to the engine harness. On all the C 36's that I have seen it goes to the cowl plenum. Hmm.

Three Point 6
11-07-2003, 04:59 PM
My car has had some shady shite happen to it in the past I think? The tech at the MB dealer said my engine harness has already been replaced at one point so maybe along the line the pipe was swapped at somebodies shop? Maybee (2) 202's at the same time and the techs just accidently got em mixed??? I did a post over a year ago on the rubber boot that connects the x-over pipe to the T/B. Mine was ripped due to improper handling! Someone has gaffled me! How much is an OEM pipe? $150+?? Where is a phat aftermarket pipe available??? That sucks? I need a new filter anyway so I might go ahead and check on it(x-over) tommorow.

Another thing. An good indie shop replaced my ignition tips back in Feb. and told me that someone had taken out the bulb for my 'check engine' light. So yhea, there has been some ghey stuff goin down with my car at somebodies shop before I took delivery. The dealer that sold me the car had it inspected before I picked it up. To pass, it needed new O2 sensors and a coil pack. I've got the reciepts even. I know the shop who did the work & I think that dude who owns it is a jack-hole anyway? The name of the shop is C & G repair in Houston. Another thing is the car was owned by some rich dude in Mexico City. The car was delivered in Austin in '96 and sent over there for 5+ years! So anything can go in that country I guess? What would some Mexican dude want with a C36 X-over pipe? Must be a freaken black market for em I guess?? The guy who owns that Indie shop who inspected my ride might have it on one of his personal M104 powered rides??

moebiusgold
11-07-2003, 05:12 PM
Oh No!!! Not like in Mexico. You're lucky if that's all that is different. Wonder what Carfax would have said? Now I understand why yer selling. Glad I bought one last month even though mine hasn't had a pristine past either.

Three Point 6
11-07-2003, 05:32 PM
moebiusgold,

I trust my cars past, except for where it was taken for maintenence. (USA or Mexico) The guy who used to own my car went straight to an S500 AMG so he has plenty of money. I have the original window sticker and stuff so I know my car is legit. I dont doubt my car was taken care of because it is super clean & my Euro bodyshop guy who I am good friends with checked it on his frame machine. I just think the guy here in Houston who put O2's on my car to get to pass inspection may have taken the check engine bulb out as to avoid a quick comeback & switched the X-over tube. He had original C36 MB wall poster collateral & stuff in his office so I think he jocks my ride & wanted it for one of his 'project rides' out back. I cant prove it so why bother? I'll just have to go get the right piece at the dealer & pay the piper I guess??

714guy
11-07-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by speedybenz
J Irwin, If you send me your MAS sensor body I will bore it out for no cost. Just curious to see if it makes a difference.

But if you really wanted to make a difference then send me the whole intake system including the intake manifold.

Jeff
will you do mines Speedy, i have an extra MAS body. Also Speedy i have that squarish looking intake pendulum any way to make it better?? I heard the AMG is $$$

moebiusgold
11-07-2003, 05:37 PM
No one has mentioned Bekkers headers. How many ponies are those worth? Seem a little spendy but how much did J. Irwin spend on that CAI? I want one of those, least for the summer. Wonder if there is anything to be had with replacing the inlet to the stock box with something a lot larger. By eyeball it looks miniscule for the job. Looks almost as if its the smallest crossection in sort of the MAS. Funky with that little trumpet sticking down. The whole stock setup has another prolem. I was looking at the outside temp at 41 while the intake air was registering 141 to 143 while idling with the hood open. At a no load 3k RPM it only dropped into the mid 130's. Unfortunately no laptop yet to do some datalogging. I've blown too much getting my 95 back in shape. My fuel trims were -2.1 to-2.3 ? At idle I was showing 1.7 %, I wonder what that is all about?

moebiusgold
11-07-2003, 05:58 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Three Point 6
[B]moebiusgold,

I trust my cars past, except for where it was taken for maintenence......
You've got my point. I've seen unbelievable stuff done to cars, trucks, busses, people ooops.. down there. Hey good luck! I'd want to put all of the wiring back to OE. I know of swaps that have happened to friends engine parts here in the states. Can't do much but say "Hey, these aren't mine ....." to some A hole and make sure that everyone you know finds out about it. Sooner or later you figure out where to get machine work done etc. I relocated in my 20's. It was like starting over at 0 with friends and a lot more.

speedybenz
11-07-2003, 07:34 PM
714Guy,

Send the stuff up and I will take a look and see what can be done. No promises other than your car will not run worse when you get the modified parts back on.

Jeff

Three Point 6
11-07-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by moebiusgold
No one has mentioned Bekkers headers

I did on a different thread a few days ago! .......

http://www.bekkers.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BI&Product_Code=BICM104&Category_Code=mheaderexhaust

No pic on thier site makes it hard to understand the $1,500 price. Someone needs to get them to digi pic a set and link it so we can all take a look at 'em?

Eurosport
11-07-2003, 10:33 PM
Three Point 6,
the pipe that you have in your pict is off the c280 also same for the 96, 97 E320's
the amg one is around $400 wholesale
unfortunately
i donno why previous owner didn't get the right one, even though costly, still he was driving an amg (pretty late model, since it was back then)
here's another pict from my car like J'shttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/p81d9d83ded6e65d771c7b877140bcd3f/fb71542e.jpg

Eurosport
11-07-2003, 10:33 PM
last picthttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid71/p85c94d77133e356f89791530d930a388/fb8ec3ce.jpg

Three Point 6
11-07-2003, 11:00 PM
Eurosport,

Damn, I got robbed

speedybenz
11-08-2003, 10:26 AM
3.6,

I think you need to also check your intake manifold and make sure it is for the C36 and not for the C280. If I was bold enough to take the X-over pipe I would also take the manifold.

Jeff

Three Point 6
11-08-2003, 05:24 PM
So far the tube looks like the only thing changed. If you want to break it down evenly there were roughly 960 C36's sent to North America - ever. So that makes 19.2 vehicles per state on average! Not many AMG X-over tubes made. Yes it will be expensive to make right. Jnolte PEASE find the tube out of your wrecked car for me!

I'm not worried that someone jammed a C280 motor or intake in my car cause like a said I roll right next to 350Z's & new GT stangs rated at 275hp. I might pull a tad better w/ the right tube though? Its all about the volume inside available to the actual intake manifold. I trust they use math/flow bench to find what they need when the motor was stroked out. Instantanious air needs like abrupt throttle transistion is where I will get gains with the AMG piece. My car runs fine the way it is though.

Now I know what a NASCAR driver feels like with a restricter plate!! You always know there is more lurking beneath....

J Irwan
11-08-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Three Point 6
So far the tube looks like the only thing changed. If you want to break it down evenly there were roughly 960 C36's sent to North America - ever. So that makes 19.2 vehicles per state on average! Not many AMG X-over tubes made. Yes it will be expensive to make right. Jnolte PEASE find the tube out of your wrecked car for me!

I'm not worried that someone jammed a C280 motor or intake in my car cause like a said I roll right next to 350Z's & new GT stangs rated at 275hp. I might pull a tad better w/ the right tube though? Its all about the volume inside available to the actual intake manifold. I trust they use math/flow bench to find what they need when the motor was stroked out. Instantanious air needs like abrupt throttle transistion is where I will get gains with the AMG piece. My car runs fine the way it is though.

Now I know what a NASCAR driver feels like with a restricter plate!! You always know there is more lurking beneath....



Kylie,

have you tried calling mercedesshop for that intake plenum pipe...?
They might have much better price than dealership


Regardz,

jnolte
11-09-2003, 12:49 AM
Damn, i will try for you mang. but i dont know if they will let me!! SHIT if i woulda known they were rare like that i would of taken it so fast!! DAMN DAMN DAMN

36SlaMMed
12-30-2003, 12:10 AM
j irwan i Saw the pic of the 190e 350hp with the intake plenum that you posted. DO you know what makes that so much different than the intake for instance on your car. And by the way is it true that you made your CAI.

thx

M104-AMG
01-02-2004, 06:40 AM
Yes, some C36 did have what I call the "S-class" style cross-tube.

My C36 engine has it as well.

I believe you can't just swap, because the mounting points are different. You'll need a different valve-cover.

Here's mine on a C36 verified engine.

:-) neil

http://www.silcom.com/~neilv/sportline/images/DSCN0883.jpg

J Irwan
01-02-2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by M104-AMG
Yes, some C36 did have what I call the "S-class" style cross-tube.

My C36 engine has it as well.

I believe you can't just swap, because the mounting points are different. You'll need a different valve-cover.

Here's mine on a C36 verified engine.

:-) neil

http://www.silcom.com/~neilv/sportline/images/DSCN0883.jpg


Neil,

To date all C36 I have seen in real life, of from the photo, has intake plenum tube with "3.6" on it
It is bigger than 3.2L intake plenum tube like the one on your car.

one of my friend has 96 E320 (w210) and the intake plenum pipe is exactly like yours

I have the publication on C36 when first came out to US and the book definitelt show that the intake plenum pipe is different than other engine (belongs only to C36)

As far as interchangeability, I suspcet it might be compatible with the same year. (i.e 1995 C280 vs 1995 C36, 1997 C280 vs 1997 C36).


Regardz,

M104-AMG
01-02-2004, 10:29 AM
Yes, I've seen the MB publications stating as such, however, on Ebay, I did see at least (2) C36's with the same "flat" cross-pipe, and I did run their VIN#'s to make sure they were C36's and they were genuine.

Also, if you look in the Mercedes EPC, the AMG M104 engines shows the "flat" cross-pipe as an option.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E

J Irwan
01-02-2004, 12:00 PM
neil,

I know what you're saying that that intake listed on MB EPC
however if you click on the non HWA intake tube it will tell you that the part numbe is not applicable for C36..

I pulled this on 95, 96, and 97 C36.

Although 96 and 97 C36 share the exact intake tube and has HWA part number (HWA 104 141 06 04), the 95 C36 use different part and also has HWA part number...(HWA 104 141 06 04)

either way it has to be AMG specific part.. :)


It is also possible that those engines that are sold on ebay has this intake plenum broken.. It is common to have the mounting tab (where you tighten the nut to the valve cover - 3 spots) broken.
Either they're broken, or the seller decided to sell the intake plenum separate since that intake plenum is an Expensive part.. ;)


Either way, if you use the smaller plenum, the motor will still run, just it won't have optimum power...

CKlasse
01-02-2004, 01:50 PM
It's like running Marathon with a stuffy nose! :D

36SlaMMed
01-02-2004, 02:48 PM
Welcome to the w202 club Neil. I dunno if you remember we met in Santa Barbara when we put the chip in my brothers 500E. Any chips for the c36 engine yet?


Gary

M104-AMG
01-02-2004, 05:42 PM
Yes, I do.

Email back your phone number, and we can talk.