The M111 should be very good at high power applications (discusion)

[funboy2000]

So I'm bored out of my mind studying for exams and decided to search up on Merc engines. My opinion with my basic knowledge in engine engineering is that the M111 specifically the 2L should be a very good at high power engine NA or boosted.
The bore and stroke is 89.9 x 78.7. This means the large bore and short stroke should mean that the engine could be pretty good at making power. By increasing the compression and head flow, the M111 should excel in NA power performance. Though there are no balancing shafts, balanced components should suffice. Must performance engines have them removed anyway.

Going towards the boosted setup, the low compression nature of the engine (9.6:1) Should also mean that it will be very good with boost.

The M111 engine is somewhat designed for reliability; with its larger bore to stroke ratio, low ish max rpm, low compression and low airflow.
Smaller stroke means lower amount of cylinder rings to wall drag.

We can make advantage of this engine design by increasing airflow, which means head work, balancing the engine parts, exhaust upgrades etc. This should mean we can increase rpm limits.
Increase compression for NA goodness
or
Keep compression ratio for BOOSTED fun.

Now I'm not a expert at this, I just happen to know a little. More than welcome to correct me if I'm wrong; I'm always happy to increase my knowledge.
Opinions Welcome!

[Dearlove]

the was an NA 2.3 pumping out 270hp

2.3>2.0
the only way the smaller engine is going to be better if if you spin it a hell of a lot faster

if you use 25 meters per second as the highest piston speed you want (which is pretty quick for a street car) the 2L hits it at 9500rpm while the 2.3 gets to 8500 and i doubt you'll make up the power with an extra 1000rpm. Then there's the whole set of arguments of why making power at a lower rpm is better.

[KrumB]

In this regard. Does anyone happens to know the stock internals limits?

[John Jones Jr.]

Krum, I've no real idea other than a few Swedish guys have reported 350-400bhp on stock M111 (230K's) turbo'ed engines. How long the engines lasted I suppose is the big question.

[Pagz]

The M111k with 8.8 ratio can do at least 380hp without bending anything, I bent two rods early in the build but I don't think this was power related.

Funboy , if your keen on staying with the 202 and want a little more hp best thing you could do is go with a C36/43..I cannot recommend it enough^^
this guy wants a little too much for this 96 spec but nz new low km's like this are non existent now.. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=809468476
Maintenance is more costly on the 36/43, but custom turbo/na setup's are exponential cost and time.

[KrumB]

Pagz, have you tried what are the max efficient RPM?

[Pagz]

Pretty much all Mercedes engines are focused around low - mid torque, so max efficiency is generally in this RPM area.

I find I use low end 98% of my driving so suits me well.

With the turbo build the torque shifted slightly higher in the RPM I think mostly due to the intake manifold/PR and changes to exhaust cam timing. it wasn't ideal though placing large pressure ratio on an engine designed for na/sc so will never be as good as one with timing specifically for turbo,you could always redesign the cam timing.

[KrumB]

I turboed my engine (M111K 2.0) and I'm still using using the stock intake and ECU but I played a bit with it. :)
Here's a graph of how the power looks like with stock intake VVTI (if I may call it that way) rev limiter at 7000 rpm
https://mercedesdata.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img_1207.jpg

And here's how it looks with the vvt magnet disengaged

https://mercedesdata.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img_1208.jpg

At 6000+ rpm I'm running out of fuel as I'm still using the stock injectors but I'll be installing a MS2 in parallel with the MB ECU + adequate size injectors and will post more results.

[Pagz]

Hello Krum,

Would be handy if your tuner can overlay the advance/retard dyno runs so you can pick your switch point should you want to continue using that feature to keep the bottom end.

switching to retard at below ~1400 rpm like factory can be a pain to tune, not so bad going advanced to retard in the upper though but can sometimes leave a small flat spot.

In your graphs torque starts trending downwards after 4-5000rpm, I don't think larger injectors will help much with high end? I think this is the mechanical nature of the build you have. Sure your hp will increase with rpm but ideally you want to stay in the torque band?...

[funboy2000]

The M111k with 8.8 ratio can do at least 380hp without bending anything, I bent two rods early in the build but I don't think this was power related.

Funboy , if your keen on staying with the 202 and want a little more hp best thing you could do is go with a C36/43..I cannot recommend it enough^^
this guy wants a little too much for this 96 spec but nz new low km's like this are non existent now.. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=809468476
Maintenance is more costly on the 36/43, but custom turbo/na setup's are exponential cost and time.
I understand that turbo and na setups gets expensive, but I kind of want something that not a lot of people have. I mean I can throw in a RB or a JZ engine call that a day. They make power like theres no tomorrow. I mean i guess you can call that a unique conversion haha but yea kind of overdone in the NZ scene I reckon. I had however considered a Honda K series swap. They're very good engines and they are not expensive at all to buy or modify. Only issue is that I have no idea what to do about the drivetrain to make it work. Cost of the K series conversion would roughly end up at c36 price ranges so either way I will have to fork out money haha.

[Pagz]

There is only a small handful of c36/43 here , there unique already:)

The amg will be cheaper initially and in the long run,enjoy factory built performance...save the rest for a house;)

[Dearlove]

if i were to do it again, instead of buying an amg i'd get a c280 swap in a 3.2 and turbo that

[KrumB]

if i were to do it again, instead of buying an amg i'd get a c280 swap in a 3.2 and turbo that

Me too.
I have a friend with a similar setup (stock M104 engine) and currently the car is 500+ hp @ crank.


Hello Krum,

Would be handy if your tuner can overlay the advance/retard dyno runs so you can pick your switch point should you want to continue using that feature to keep the bottom end.

switching to retard at below ~1400 rpm like factory can be a pain to tune, not so bad going advanced to retard in the upper though but can sometimes leave a small flat spot.

In your graphs torque starts trending downwards after 4-5000rpm, I don't think larger injectors will help much with high end? I think this is the mechanical nature of the build you have. Sure your hp will increase with rpm but ideally you want to stay in the torque band?...

I overlayed the graphs and the switch off point is like yours. Between 5100 and 5300. Will be playing with that when I install the MS2.

I would very much like to have the power going up to 7000 rpm if not more but that's an unknown area... :)

[funboy2000]

Hey pagz, you've seen the black C36 on trademe aye. All the usual problems have been sorted. I've been planning to buy it and then respray the damaged panels. Wouldn't that work out way cheaper? The colour is lovely too in my opinion.

Oh and do you still have all the manual bits laying around from your 230? Could be interested aahah

[Pagz]

Yes its my favourite colour c36 im tempted to buy myself ;) , bit rough around the outside but as you say all problems are sorted just refresh the paint and you'd have a nice amg 202 for much less than the other options!.

Haha I actually threw the gearbox in the bin earlier this year doh, your better off with the 6 speed I think though I have a hunch you need the touchshifts tunnel add on for extra clearance around the shifter area. I still kept a few bits like the pedal box etc thought maybe one day I would do a manual c43 and recently came close to purchasing a 711.670 box but realized just how tricky this would be if done properly with correctly rated parts and threw it in. the C36 is a much better manual project.

Krum,
Sounds good, higher rpm is always more exciting to drive;). If your turbine is common/cheap with optional housings you could try increase turbine housing size/AR this may help your breathing up high and might not effect your low end as much.

[KrumB]

Pagz,
Currently my rev limiter is at 7000 rpm and the turbo is a TD05H-20G so breathing is OK just need to sort out the engine management....

P.S. I'd love a manual 43/55 (preferably blown :) ).
711.660 is rated for 400 Nm
711.685 is rated for 480 Nm

[Pagz]

Krum,
Hmm I think the highest is nsg510 711.670 - 510Nm.? one problem is matching flywheel uses different bolt pattern used in the larger diesel's. I think the smaller flywheel from C250 diesel with 711.670 could be used but CPS is different location also...so many headaches and that's only one mechanical aspect - others will be fitting into small trans tunnel..custom prop..vibration changes. it just goes on until you hit the electronic wall^^..it is a nice dream though.

[funboy2000]

Yes its my favourite colour c36 im tempted to buy myself ;) , bit rough around the outside but as you say all problems are sorted just refresh the paint and you'd have a nice amg 202 for much less than the other options!.

Haha I actually threw the gearbox in the bin earlier this year doh, your better off with the 6 speed I think though I have a hunch you need the touchshifts tunnel add on for extra clearance around the shifter area. I still kept a few bits like the pedal box etc thought maybe one day I would do a manual c43 and recently came close to purchasing a 711.670 box but realized just how tricky this would be if done properly with correctly rated parts and threw it in. the C36 is a much better manual project.

Krum,
Sounds good, higher rpm is always more exciting to drive;). If your turbine is common/cheap with optional housings you could try increase turbine housing size/AR this may help your breathing up high and might not effect your low end as much.

I wish I casually have 9k sitting around to buy that C36 haha.
Oh and I've read a fair bit of the information on this forum about manual swaps. It seems so much more difficult compared to japa or even a american car. The c36 being a 94, does that mean a manual swap in that will mean I don't have to deal with silly TCU's and TCS? I have been considered importing a manual 230k and ripping out all the engine and drivetrain out of it and jamming it into the 200. You can have the c36 bumper if I find one with it haha.

I know a forum member over at bmw has written a full detail manual swap thread for a e46. Is there such thread for a w202?

[KrumB]

In the below thread you can find a fair bit of information
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/251302-190e-3-0-12v-turbo.html

[RemoLexi]

Sorry to always steer the thread away but you guys were mentioning diesel MB gearboxes in order to handle power but what do the ratios look like since diesels don't like to be spun up much?

I built a gearbox last year on a VW and the gearing was completely opposite on gasoline vs. diesel.

[Pagz]

Remo,yip your right they are longer, not ideal man

Funboy, could be wrong but I seem to recall the 94 - 96 ones were easier to convert because the trans was vaccum operated?, I think there was also a coding option in the ECU for manual because this era C280 does come with manual. Remo might know more.
If you come across a spare front I'll take it for sure ;)..It will be cheaper to buy the C36 and sell yours though, importing is really pricey - expect $3-4k + tax.

[John Jones Jr.]

In the below thread you can find a fair bit of information
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/251302-190e-3-0-12v-turbo.html

Enjoyed that read. Cheers Krum.

[RemoLexi]

Correct, the type 6 can be coded out, but only need to code out would be to pass emissions (in California) otherwise u can still drive with a check engine light on.

96' and older are limited to using older gearboxes from the 190E era do to flywheel differences. Unless you go custom flywheel which can be unlimited amount of $

[Pagz]

Ahh yes that's right..vdo ecu uses different cps pickup(3 finger)?, this flywheel should be available for the pre update C280?

Krum , reading that turbo thread gives me bitter sweet sensation, I miss boost but it's a flash back to all the same problems I had^^

[KrumB]

There's no easy way to have a fast car I guess.... :)

[Pagz]

You could save it for C63;)

Funboy, Heres an easy way out http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/mercedesbenz/auction-812931818.htm

[funboy2000]

You could save it for C63;)

Funboy, Heres an easy way out http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/mercedesbenz/auction-812931818.htm
Such a sleeper ahaha. I'm guessing the guy has somehow adapted the stock c280 ecu on it. Conversion doesn't look very convincing reliability wise and the damn thing is in levin!

[KrumB]

Pagz,

Maybe I've asked but....
Have you tried how's the power-band after 6000 rpm? Say 7000?
And have you tested what happens if you do not engange the camshaft actuator?

EDIT:
Pagz, where did you get the pistons from and how strong they were /if you remember/?

[KrumB]

Does anyone know or can find the exact dimensions of M111.943 .944 (2.0K) connecting rods?

[tomant]

I turboed my engine (M111K 2.0) and I'm still using using the stock intake and ECU but I played a bit with it. :)
Here's a graph of how the power looks like with stock intake VVTI (if I may call it that way) rev limiter at 7000 rpm
https://mercedesdata.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img_1207.jpg

And here's how it looks with the vvt magnet disengaged

https://mercedesdata.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/img_1208.jpg

At 6000+ rpm I'm running out of fuel as I'm still using the stock injectors but I'll be installing a MS2 in parallel with the MB ECU + adequate size injectors and will post more results.Hello,

It looks as the power curves never cross, the retarded cam timing (pic 1208) gives more power at all RPMs with this setup. Is this the 141 kW version or the 120 kW version of 200K? Is the valve timing stock?

How much boost pressure at 281 hp?

tomant