Possible trans upgrade

[Vetruck]

In light of the trans in my 1994 C220 slipping in reverses since I acquired the car 2.5 years ago. I am looking to finally put a new/rebuilt trans. In researching things. I currently have the so called bullet proof 4 speed 4g-tronic 722.4.

Question is: What is the compatibility of a 722.6 5 speed (from the c36) and would I (assume) have computer issue with compatibility...as well as will it bolt up to the c220 motor fitment wise? Lastly, in the rare event it all will work- Is that a strong reputable trans?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-2004-Mercedes-Benz-722-6-5-speed-Transmission-w-Torque-Converter-Rebuilt-/251875809893?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3aa4f7da65&vxp=mtr
Somehow I am anticipating the simple answer- NO (lol) Any help? Never hurts to ask.

[Dearlove]

Computer is notwithstanding, however there is a guy that does tcu's for them (the 5 speed auto) but that alone will cost you over $1000

It's not just the c36 trans, It's all cars 97 and after.

My c36 in 96 and has the 4 speed. I'm considering transplanting the 722.6 with the custom tcu with hard as possible shifts for the track.

All 5 speeds (auto) that came on the m111 or m104 with bolt up

[Vetruck]

Thanks Trent. With that said I am very interested in hearing any more useful information on who I need to contact or what/where I need to buy (meaning do I need to locate a TCU out of a 97- 230?

Since the little 220 lags on low end, I would love to put another gear into it to keep it up in rpm range and also know it would help on gas mileage around town(not a big issue, but still a cost reason over long term that would eventually about pay for itself). I could see this car waking up keeping gear shifts above 3k when on it. I do not drive the car much at all, but when I do it usually with the better half in the passenger seat. A typical roll into the throttle will often lag the car until rpms come up- unless I just stomp it...and of course the Mrs stomps me in the process...lol. Its a fun car when you keep the rpms up, otherwise it just has nothing down low and will get caught sleeping in between gears often.

Dean

[RemoLexi]

Yup, it will all bolt up together.

Your biggest hoop is to get in contact with someone who makes that transmission computer. They may want to know exact transmission numbers because the 722.6 came in many variants and different valve bodies, the number on the side would say 722.6XX (I can tell you exact numbers off a C36 trans, I have one around)

Overall, the 722.6 is a good transmission, when it came out in 97' it had flaws that overtime got fixed with updated parts. Buying a used one maybe a tough call because if it wasn't rebuilt, it may soon fail.

There is reputable rebuilder here in NorCal, search Peter Schmidt transmissions.

If and when you do get closer, let me know if you need any parts, as I have basically all of the automatic parts left around from a conversion (shifter, wire harness, factory tcu., flex plate ect ect. I also have a running 722.6 around but has slippage in 3rd under WOT, so it's a good core!

[RemoLexi]

Also, when you talk to whoever makes an aftermarket TCU, ask them about final gear ratio and if it can be changed, as the factory tcu is coded to typically a 3.07 rear differential, on your C220 I would run a 3.27 from a 99-00 C230k or a 3.45 from a 97-99 S320 W140 chassis to help off the line take off.

[Vetruck]

I was actually looking at a 3.67 rear diff out of a c240 since the trans swap is the same 1-4 gear ratios and is just adding an OD gear past 1:1.

THis computer stuff sounds like a headache. Remo, when you say swap parts, are you saying the linkage and wiring harness are different also? I know GM stuff like the back of my hands, what marries up to what, what and where to get trans computers for the 4l60e etc. I can not pu the GM 6 speed (6l80e) into my truck without an LS motor swap due to different bolt patterns. Sounding like this little car would be a much bigger headache. Just a simple rebuilt trans for about 1500 is starting to sound like a sensible thing for a car the misses drives 99% of the time.

ps- my current rear end ratio is already 3.37-(EDIT- WRONG- I apologize, I do have 3.07's. The c280's my year had 2.87's)

[Vetruck]

Here are m current # and then that numbers changes with 5sp and 3.67 gears

current 3.07 and 4sp (1:1 trans ratio final) with 24.7 dia tires @ 75mph= 3132 rpms

3.67 with 5sp overdrive (.75 trans ratio final)= 2808 rpms

Here are gear change MPH with the 722.4 /3.07 @ 6000 rpms 1-4= 34/60/97/144

722.5 with 3.67 @ 6000rpms 1-5 gears= 31/54/83/120/160

722.6 with 3.67 @ 6000rpms 1-5 gears= 31/50/81/120/145

You can clearly see the 722.6 5 sp with a 3.67 rearend would give me a very nice quick ratio setup as well as gain better fuel economy in overdrive freeway cruising @ 70-75mph.

[Vetruck]

Trans gear ratios in each box

722.4 (current trans)= (1st/2nd/3rd/4th) 4.25/2.40/1.48/1

722.5= 3.87/2.24/1.44/1/.75

722.6= 3.93/2.41/1.49/1/.83

You can see the large drop in the 722.4 gearbox from 1st to second is what kills us in lag. The 722.6 box has a great close ratio.

[Vetruck]

Conclusion- Guys help me out what it takes for this swap to a 722.6 and 3.67 diff. Exactly who and what do I need to contact for programing and how reliable s this reprogramming. I have a hard time trusting other people to modify my cars. The problem I have is I know nothing about vehicle computers (for the most part, Ill just say I know nothing even though I know more then the average car enthusiasts).

[RemoLexi]

I am not sure who makes an aftermarket tcu for the 722.6, but I know they are out there and I'm sure someone else can chime in with those details!

As the swap goes, the shifter itself is different, but easy to swap, you may need a harness if the aftermarket tcu doesn't have one already. The shift rod maybe different or not, not 100% sure.

You will need to use the flex plate that you have, since the crank sensor pickup signals are different between 96'-97'.

The 3.67 diff off a C240 also doesn't have axle flanges, I am not sure if the w202 stub axles can to snapped in place, however a 203 uses different style axles without the 6-bolt flanges.

[Vetruck]

Good call on the axle flange. I research more to verify that and yes you are correct (as I already assumed via your reputable knowledge)2525

I see I am opening a can of worms here. My next question was going to be "how about stepping back one place to a 722.5 upgrade?' -but then I see even using the 3.45 diff from the W140 like you suggested would still put a 722.5 5sp box in the same overall 1-4 final gear range I already have...but with an overdrive (5th) that would be useless.

Thank you for your helpful input everyone. I would say at this point the OEM rebuilt swap is in rightful order. This is not my race car and is not economically a smart move at 3-4 times the cost of a simple OEM replacement.

[RemoLexi]

Ol' lady doesn't want a clutch to kick instead?

[Vetruck]

Nope. God help anyone driving near her. She's never driven one. I was just trying to get her to drive one of my new little racecars around the block but she is scared and refuses.I'm building it to smash up on destruction nights at Toyota speedway. Its a dodge neon 5sp manual with 12:1 power/weight ratio I'll run in enduros and flag pole races. Perfect car for her to crash trying but she still won't.2526

[RemoLexi]

Haha awesome!

... But back to your 722.6 swap, did you find any aftermarket tcu's ?

The transmission and everything else is nuts and bolts. Can be done fairly easy. As far as the diff goes, I actually need to get a 3.67 W203 diff for my wife's car, she has a manual 05' C230 and one of the carrier bearings is getting noisy, I figure I'd up the ratio to 3.67 instead of 3.46 or whatever it is.. What I'm getting at is- once I have a scrap 203 diff I can try and see if the 202 stub axle can slide in and clip in with a C-clip.

[Vetruck]

I contacted Robert Beckman at Beckman Technologies. He advise me that he thinks the engine management CAN bus does not transfer enough data to shift the .6 in my year car (1994) of course you realise I do not have a friken clue about what I just passed along info wise, lol.

He suggested I find a stand alone all manual 722.6 but had no advice who or where to get such from.

[Vetruck]

Ps- there is a used 3.67 203 carrier on eBay right now for $190.

[RemoLexi]

Your car is too early to be on a CAN network, basically stating that the engine electronics module is not capable of communicating with an added trans module (fucking obvious there) ... Yea, you need to source and aftermarket tcu.

I have worked with Beckmann though before on custom coding ect.

A 3.67 from a local wrecker goes around $100. C240 parts are everywhere

[Dearlove]

yeah the 722.6 came with the cars post can bus, 96 and earlier cant use the tcu

I'll dig up that guys email for the stand alone tcu

[Dearlove]

russell@soundgermanautomotive.com
425-503-9233

[Vetruck]

If and when you do get closer, let me know if you need any parts, as I have basically all of the automatic parts left around from a conversion (shifter, wire harness, factory tcu., flex plate ect ect. I also have a running 722.6 around but has slippage in 3rd under WOT, so it's a good core!

Dearlove, Im going to contact him for details. I guess I am still hot on this idea.

Remo, your quote from above- If I can get this to work I am definitely interested in a few parts I will need. Can you tell me of the shifter bolts right into the w202 setup (basically will it just fit as the current shifter I have does)? I do not want to hack up the console or make it look Gerry rigged. Do you know if it would fit cleanly?

Also does anyone know any sources of ring and pinion gears (aftermarket ratios) for these cars. I am not finding much if anything in internet searches

[Vetruck]

I think I found something fun. I am having a hard time finding compatibility but I think this will work- can someone confirm if you know yes or no?

I found this on ebay right now. From what it appears it is the same pinion shaft makeup as the large carrier 3.67 cases in the w140.my W202 has a small case from what I can verify so this would not work inside mine. Would this fit in the w140 ? If so I would buy a used one and these new gars and rebuild it. If thisstand alone TCU will work then I would assume I can go up with the rear end ration. This would give me unbelievable gearing with very quick ratio.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-W114-W115-W123-ring-gear-pinion-radsatz-3-92-230C-250C-280-240D-/221709914143?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item339ef0d01f&vxp=mtr

[Vetruck]

722.6 w/ 3.92
Gear mph @ 6000rpms 1/2/3/4/OD
29/47/76/113/136

3300 @ 75mph

Might be a little too high ratio. I cruise right now at 3120rpms. Would eat gas on the freeway. The 3.67 is much better.

I could probably buy a few used diffs (a w140 3.27 and a c240 3.67)and make a 3.67 into a w140 3.27/2.45 case with new bearings and seals.

I can do all the work, I just need to know if the parts are all compatable before I buy things. I just do not know what years what fits what in crossover applications.

[RemoLexi]

The shifter is direct bolt in. No chopping or hacking, but you will have the newer style shifter gate, you will have to buy a new shift knob because I don't think they swap over.

I just purchased a W203 3.67 diff today, $130 w/tax locally. I also have a R129 large pumpkin w/3.69 still in the blue C36 my friend totaled, it may just be good for r/p swap like you are interested in, since the entire rear subframe is taco'd beyond belief.

[Vetruck]

The shifter is direct bolt in. No chopping or hacking, but you will have the newer style shifter gate, you will have to buy a new shift knob because I don't think they swap over.

I just purchased a W203 3.67 diff today, $130 w/tax locally. I also have a R129 large pumpkin w/3.69 still in the blue C36 my friend totaled, it may just be good for r/p swap like you are interested in, since the entire rear subframe is taco'd beyond belief.

Perfect on the shifter info.

Well heck, it appears I was barking up the right tree all the time and had no idea. So the 1995 C36 has the same large pumpkin carrier with 3.69's OEM as the R129 platform carriers. I also see the 2.4-16's came with them also in the 5 sp manuals. (So I am exactly on track with the original 3.67 idea and the factory had already beat me to it with the 3.69...lol- If I am correct with that statement I hope)

So basically if am correct then a R129 3.69 ASR (I know I do not want an ASD rom what I researched) will bolt right into my car? Can you PM me what you are asking for the C36 diff? (if it is in decent shape, Or is the housing damaged and just the R&P salvageable?)

also interested in the shifter and associated parts I need to convert all this that you may have laying around.

based on what the guy from Dearloves recommend TCU link tells me, looks like I am ready to pull the trigger if all this looks like it will all work.
I can get a 722.6 trans freshy rebuilt from Sunvalley MB very near to me for $2000 with new convertor./ Or my original option was just to do the SunvalleyMB 722.423 replacement with conv for $1750. The 5sp auto conversion hopefully will be about 4K or less if this TCU is not outrageous in price. I nee a few new trans lines anyways, but I would assume the OEMs will work based off pictures of both trans types (they basically look the same.) the last questions I would have is are the 722.423 and the 722.6 overall lengths the same or do I need to shorten the driveline.

[Denlasoul]

I know Russell. He is a good guy and knows his stuff. His reputationin the Seattle area is well known with people in the MB scene. Let me know if I can help out. His shop is close to me.

[Vetruck]

Update on my research. It appears there was a LSD mid sized case R129 diff with 3.69's. It came in the early 300SL's that were automatic. (the manuals had 3.45's)

I happen to have one listed right now down by me here in LA.http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-BENZ-R129-300SL-REAR-DIFFERENTIAL-3-69-WITH-L-R-AXLES-OEM-1293511608-/301410277612


This is a very interesting and informative read. I educated me on the backlash of an MB diff- impossible to do without MB special tooling because the backlash needs to be set up outside the case then re-measured for a blind fitment inside the case. Forget what I said about R&Ding a few case for parts swap on my own- not like a GM or Ford housing...lol. Damn Germans over engineer everything.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/80104-500e-ring-gear.html#post513955

[Vetruck]

I know Russell. He is a good guy and knows his stuff. His reputationin the Seattle area is well known with people in the MB scene. Let me know if I can help out. His shop is close to me..

Thank you Den I will message him Monday. My plate is so full right now. I have to focus tomorrow on two race cars I need to get ready for opening night 3/28. Ill have a busy week, but once I get one of them out of my shop Tuesday and up to the track for perminate storage I am back to the Brabus for some TLC. I still have to finish that electric fan mod I bought a few months back prior to the accident. Then its the trans. I have a leak so I want to get to it ASAP. The car has also starter using coolant. I keep smelling coolant inside the car which makes me oh so happy. Sounds like a heater core is in order. I do not see anything wet though. I have to learn this car still- it is all new to me. Seems to be using coolant about about 1 qt every month for the last 3 months. nothing in the oil, and since I smell it inside the car I will hope to hell it is not a head gasket.

Part of the reason for this swap is I might be driving this car more in the near future. We'll see. I have an older 85 Caddy Eldorado (the Suga Caddy) I use as a daily beater that I will probably be getting rid of in the very near future. Wifey hates it.. understandably. I've been tossing her the idea of buying a 2015 cheap Jeep (A Jeap patriot) that I would drive50/50 instead of the Caddy and my truck (I drive the caddy to keep miles off my truck since I need it for work- if it's down then I am down work wise so I only really drive it days I need it- other then that its the suga caddy) problem is she hates to drive the caddy so she is driving the Brabus full time, and then we are both in it always when together also. I am putting too many miles on it. THe Jeep would be a car that would be always used even for weekend outings unless we are dressed for an evening out (then it's the Brabus) She would use the Brabus and jeep 50/50 instead of the Brabus 100% (shared use of the Jeep on days I don't use it.)...

..so, Long story short? Looks like Ill be driving the Brabus more when I go out with the boys, etc...Car events, the race track. various things without the little lady. I want it a little more respectable with a better gear range instead of the long toss between 1st and 2nd that either lags on 20mph corners, OR, I have to kick the shit outta it and hammer it down to first gear to get it to move. It is what I hate about the , especially with the weight of a few passengers. this car desperately needs a better gearbox.

[RemoLexi]

Holy hell how I I respond in correct order!

One thing comes to mind on the shifter is the wood trim was different those years (possibly) so you need to measure the rectangular hole in the wood trim and ill see how they compare, otherwise you may end up with a gap between the shifter and wood trim.

R129 diff I do not believe ever came in the 95' C36. I have no clue. Reason I find it hard to believe is the subframe would have to be different? My install required removal of the subframe, cutting, welding, wrong driveline angle, torn flex coupler bla bla bla. It worked. But never again. I have the diff, it should be fine. Rear cover had to be cut and trimmed, but you can get a replacement and go your way.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/8E44A4EA-6306-4DB9-86D6-E3B0823542C4-1986-0000006734009526_zpsb19f87f9.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/CD96E8D2-7E26-4C66-B8B7-82C36E60D3A0-1986-00000066A6C99CBE_zpsed79e01b.jpg

So buy at your own risk. The axles and driveline bolt up, but correct mounting and spacing is for you to fit.

A little side note, I would NEVER pay more then $200 for a used diff. $80-150 is typical local wrecker prices for a used MB pumpkin. They hardly ever fail, they are a part that every wrecker has on the shelf and can't get rid of!

[RemoLexi]

Vetruck, as you get closer, pm me and we'll talk more about getting you all the parts & diff if you want. No way in hell is that diff worth anything close to $600. More like $100 (and that's what I paid for it off Craigslist.)

[Vetruck]

Thanks Remo. it was late last night and I was extremely tired - I rechecked the page that I thought had the c36 reference and it is wrong. it is merely a link to other parts and not a vehicle list of what that rearend went into.

Reason why I am interested I that EBAY link to the 300SL 3.69 diff is it is suppose to be LSD. I would of course verify that before any purchase- but if it is I think the extra $400-$500 would be greatly worth the cost for the LSD if in fact it is one. The custom fit part is not an issue. I would buy a spare rear suspension subframe and mock up the diff into it, then simply do a bolt on sway of suspension parts when ready for the entire swap. I am one that does not mind buying spare parts to fabricate and have finished so the car is not down for weeks or months waiting on the unexpected fitment problems.

As for the shifter, I can make my own console piece. Already did that for the current one since the car had damage here from a coffee spill prior to my purchasing the car. If you recall I did a chrome layover console and the plate underneath with the door switches is one I customized.

Concerning your comment about the torn flex couple- Was it a situation where you welded it in the wrong angle and then later had to correct it after it tore? I am an expert in suspension and drivetrain geometry- and troubleshooting/avoiding such issues. The biggest issue I would be concerned with is if the R129 does not fit the W202 subframe then "are the W202 diff and the R129 diff different lengths"? What I mean by that is did you have to place the R129 diff more rearward in the subframe in order to get the driveshaft to couple in correct length? If so then that would place the stub axle flanges more rearward in reference to the wheels and change those axle angles as well (this would not be good) Hopefully you can confirm of both diffs are the same dimensions front imput and side outputs, and only the case size and mounts are different (I HOPE)?

[Vetruck]

Also- Why is your R129 diff cover different in the rear mount bracket and holes then the one I show in the link? I would not think my current diff cover would interchange onto it since I have a small case, but I have never held either in my hands to even know. I am starting to think a trip to a MB bone yard is in order in the very near future before I continue this conversation.

I swear my head is hurting trying to find reliable facts on the internet. Wish I knew these cars better like I know GM stuff.

Then I think there is the issue of the vehicle speed sensor and ABS. I will have to have that recalibrated also so the speedo functions correctly (Again I am assuming?)

[RemoLexi]

If its an LSD then it's worth it, otherwise it's not.

The axles bolt up fine and weren't an issue. The issue was that the diff was about an inch longer so the driveline had to be shortened. Then when the driveline bolted up- it was more to one side then in the middle, and that created issues because I didn't think shifting the diff more to one side was a great idea. I did play with the mounting a bit and got to a point where it doesn't destroy the driveline, however I felt as if I still had some driveline vibration. Maybe it was in my head, as the next guy who owned the car knew nothing and felt nothing different from the 97' C36 (auto) he had before.

My cover is different because the guy I bought it from stated it was out of a W140 S class, I don't recall year/ engine but I'm sure it was a 6 cyl because that's how MB got those huge things to get moving with a weak ass engine.

Does you current diff have ANY speed sensor or wiring attached ? The 97'+ use all 4 wheel speed abs sensors for speedo. Therefor if yours is the same, you need not to worry about any speed calibration since whatever speed the wheels turn at is what's displayed on the speedo

[Dearlove]

damn you and your suggestions, i think i really need to do this too

[Vetruck]

ill be getting to that a week from now. Once I get one of my cars out of here I will get back on the Mercedes. From what I remember, I had checked into the speed sensor for my electric fan conversion. I recall my year car from schematics Dearlove gave me that the 94 has it's VSS on the diff. I remember tracking the wire in the schematics and finding were it ties into the passenger compartment, then over to the Speedo (the speedo VSS wire is where I plan to pick up the signal for my high ide fan shutoff mph) I think I recall it tying into the ABS computer as well from the diff sensor. I have someone that can shorten my driveshaft no problem for about $150- just had a '55 Chev 210 wagon done I put a 700r4 into for a friend With all this said, the computer stuff is what still scares me. This will all ultimately come down to what this Russell tells me both ability and cost wise on a TCU- I do not want any kind of smog check issue with dash light failing me visually.

Recap-

Shifter- No problem
Trans acquisition and install, No problem
Shorten driveshaft- No Problem
Finding a rear subframe cheap- We'll see ill start checking (# 2 in priority)
Finding a 3.69 diff- Shouldn;t be a problem/ LSD may though but not real important. I would buy if availiable but not mandatory
The TCU- I think this is a big problem
Why? Combined with the standard 94 w202 rear diffs, we have electronics in there that the R129 and W140 do not have.
2527

I think I am hitting too many walls for this to be cost effected and completed in a timely manor for a car that is relied upon for a daily driver. Having a race car down for a while is no issue, but not the wife's car. I want this so bad though. Im going to put it off until I get with Russel and see what can be done with the TCU and the rear end VSS.

[Dearlove]

what did you find the 3.92 in?
Because for me 3.92's give me 100kph(62mph) at just over 2500 and a top speed of 250k's (150mph)
So really a 4.11 would be even better....

[Dearlove]

also because your car is pre can bus it should be pretty simple, I'm pretty sure these can just be told (by the star diag) that the car is now a manual and it wont care, if that makes sense

[Dearlove]

the ratio's aren't that close together when i compare it to 'my be all, end all' of street cars designed for the track

these are the ratio's of a nissan skyline (late 80's to early 90's)
1st 3.214
2nd 1.925
3rd 1.302
4th 1.000
5th 0.752
Final drive 4.111

I guess the skyline has the advantage of a 8000 rpm redline (mine use to valve float at 10,000rpm...)

[Dearlove]

Okay so i found that the 3.92 came from the 200d, 220d. That's no good

Also found the 190d or 190e 2.6 with 5 speed manual has this diff, perfect

[Vetruck]

Guys, doesn;t the C240 W203 share the same rear subframe? It this is correct then it appears this would be the simple and best availiable c240 3.67 carrier (A dime a dozen). I wouild think the stub axles from a C240n would just work instead of using my OEM W202 axles. What am I missing here? Either that or just use the entire rear subframe suspension assembly off the W203 and bolt it right into the W202.

I love the possibility the diff electronics can be disabled like a manual car. I don't care for ABS anyways.(Ive disabled it on very other car Ive ever owned) I am hoping the VSS signal could be changed or the speedo, but any nannies I want disabled.

ill try and contact Russell tomorrow and talk the computer stuff to see if this is all viable. If this is a go- then I will order what I need TCU wise and get the Trans on order here real soon. Even without a diff upgrade yet I still have the same somewhat 1-4 I have now- Only with a taller 1st gear that closes the long gap between 1-2 shift. I could even just add the diff upgrade a few months down the road. The trans right now is my main concern.

[Vetruck]

the ratio's aren't that close together when i compare it to 'my be all, end all' of street cars designed for the track

these are the ratio's of a nissan skyline (late 80's to early 90's)
1st 3.214
2nd 1.925
3rd 1.302
4th 1.000
5th 0.752
Final drive 4.111

I guess the skyline has the advantage of a 8000 rpm redline (mine use to valve float at 10,000rpm...)

I have 4.11's in my Old Vette racecar with a Muncie M22 Rock crusher Talk about close ratio. 2.20/1.64/1.28/1. This car taches 8500rpms on a SBC 327. 540 rwHP (not Flywheel. Car runs high 10's on a road race setup. I have video footage of it on youtube. I used to be the top Vette in the nation back in the early 90's. I use to beat Hobaugh and Thorton. Hobaugh is the current guy to beat in todays world. I don't have to money to bring that car out of retirement- nor the desire. I have other interests now then running the little tight cornered Goodguys baby-autox bullshit(About 1/4 the size of conventional SCCA autox).

https://youtu.be/8owSVZaWH3A

[Dearlove]

now that is some old school footage, haha.

Not too sure about the 203 having the same rear subframe, I'm 'pretty sure' it doesn't?

And if you want no abs, just unplug the abs unit in the engine bay, I do that when i track my car as it then looses traction control

[Dearlove]

oh and if you do this let me know if your redline changes. Mine did twice out of 3 times. pain in the ass. The weird thing is it didn't change to the 4000rpm neutral rev limit but to some weird thing like 5750? Some sort of limp mode perhaps? But why it doesn't do it every time i don't know??

[Vetruck]

They are different in mount position obviously because the car chassis are different in shape, However, everything I have researched in the past shows a direct cross reference of al rear suspension links (the 5-link MB patent- same goes for the Crossfire Chrysler). I do not see why a w203 diff and axles would not be the best choice for a retrofit. Likely that the mounts have to be modified, but I would think this would be the closes fit and just use the w203 halfshafts/stub axles. Remo mention he has a w203 (I think you said your wife's car?) is it possible to math the w202 diff and w203 diff in measurements if you have two laying around?

W202 subframe
2528

W203 subframe
2529

[RemoLexi]

I think you will be fine running a 3.67 203 diff with a pair of 203 axle assemblies and leave the subframe alone.

I have a 3.67 203 pumpkin in the garage at the moment, (as well as a couple of 203' C-classes lol) but I'm almost certain the 203 pumpkin should slide right in. I just don't have a 202 diff at my fingertips to compare it to a 203 diff.

Also, since you have the speed sensor on your diff, I'm not sure if you can possibly tap into an abs sensor and grab the signal from there. The R129 3.69 diff I have does have a speed signal as well. But both are equally a headache (modify subframe to fit R129 diff vs. grab speed signal from elsewhere and install a 203 diff.)

[RemoLexi]

But to answer your question, yea I can take some measurements next weekend off the 203 subframe since I need to replace my diff immediately. (Noisy carrier bearing, getting worse)

Also, on the standalone TCU ask about the diff ratio and what happens when you change it. Your current setup has no trans computer at all, just some vacuum controls and that's it. So your check engine will not be an issue because as far as your car is concerned it can be a manual shift! You will have to rewire a simple parking safety switch to let the car start in park and not in drive.

[Vetruck]

You are the man Remo! Great info. This is sounding very promising.

The VSS I think is an easy one since it is probably just counting the rotations of the input shaft. I would be willing to bet it is a standard 2 wire signal so this universal unit from Summit Racing should work fine wit a magnet washer attached to the rear flex coupler or such and this unit leaning off the diff. I could jump it right into the factory wiring harness back there.

This way I have a speedo and the car does not fail the "visual" portion of the Calif smog inspection every other year.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rpc-250-4165/overview/

This is what is great about car forums- A few guys working together to make some possible viable upgades and documenting it for others. Thank you so much for the help and ideas guys. Great team work on this stuff.

Dean

[RemoLexi]

Here's some pictures from today's w203 diff swap. My pinion bearing was getting really noisy, so I opted for a used 3.67 instead of my 3.46, since the car is manual and has no transmission control module, I can run any ratio I please. The knuckle on one side had to be removed partially as pictured to free one axle out and be able to drop down the pumpkin.

The axles should in theory fit the 202 hub. 203 axles are 25 splines (27mm thick).

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/0E79FD99-E22D-49D5-8C94-A794DDBD3DE0-6288-000001451C57A206.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/4C14ED93-844D-4027-A57D-A67596243624-6288-0000014535C922CD.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/BD85E02D-CE11-4693-8DC4-3362E2585D06-6288-000001455C2D7CD0.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/9E7A45B4-6B84-4416-AF26-500A1EB94331-6288-000001457DA57AB5.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/72AD180A-49C8-4A1C-A30D-71637C206FF4-6288-00000144C3AB5941.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/6B544955-E62C-4325-A27E-0B48DF8543B4-6288-00000145027CCA3D.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/ADB5EA45-E518-4087-A3FB-260643CC9032-6288-00000144E535BDAE.jpg
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/09E9F798-17CD-4AAA-83F3-16353C3D6FA1-6288-00000144A7A7A708.jpg

[RemoLexi]

Some of those pix are random mount points of the subframe & diff.

[RemoLexi]

Now the ultimate thread jacker, installed a pair of factory Xenon headlamps. This is my wife's car, we live in the Tahoe national forest and its DARK at night!!

Before (halogens)
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/043A64D0-B1A0-4709-B2D8-2DBFFB68E6AB-6288-0000014AA89B834F.jpg

Installation,
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/BDCDBE8A-580D-4D85-BD59-168CC93B7CE0-6288-0000014ACEC2D35E.jpg
Variant coding via SDS,
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/EC356801-E07E-4752-8F08-53354E08355E-6288-0000014B0F6398E8.jpg
Works!!
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/974D23D8-72E8-4908-B63A-D4F323636ADD-6288-0000014AF1AE0BC2.jpg
All done,
http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m478/remolexi/47041EDA-ED7A-484B-99BF-F1DAF3718057-6288-0000014B2CD5C4CD.jpg

[mbsickness]

Nice lighting upgrade! So is this plug and play assuming the coding is done? I assume the self leveling would be disabled/non-functioning.

[RemoLexi]

Plug and play but the self-leveling isn't prewired that I can see, so I will dig into that soon too!

[mbsickness]

I have a 2007 C230 with halogens so this is very good to know....Thanks!

[Vetruck]

Thank you for the references.

I thought I was going to have my Neon race car out of here last Thursday, but it came back with electrical/PCM issues I need to resolve.

Just wanted say say think you for posting the pics and info. I will be getting to it in due time.

[RemoLexi]

If you want you can have the old 203 3.46 diff to tinker with before you buy one

[Vetruck]

If you want you can have the old 203 3.46 diff to tinker with before you buy one
I might take you up on that depending on what it cost to ship a brick...lol (92683) You have any idea? It certainly would make my life easier then going to sort through a junk yard- I cringe at the though. Getting too old to be excited about crap like that anymore. I would rather pay shipping.

A buddy of mine just bought a C240 yesterday I was going to try and measure next time I see him, but having one in had to mock up would be beneficial. Ive been keeping my eye out for a cheap rear subframe also.

[RemoLexi]

You are in SoCal somewhere? Let me know as you get closer to your project and whatever other parts you need and we'll figure it out. I know my wife and I do have vacation coming up this summer possibly SoCal (like last year). Shipping that useless part will cost too much.

[Vetruck]

North Huntington Beach area. I agree, that's why I called it a brick. Lol

[Dearlove]

Well after enquiring about a 3.4 diff from my local wrecker and get told they wanted ~$550 for it. I've managed to find 2 diff's on the other side of the country shipped to me for $280.

They're not desired 3.4 or 3.6, rather 3.2 and 3.9. But it'll will give me a chance to see what they're like

[Vetruck]

I am re-opening this thread. I just message Russell for info on this finally. I am pulling the car off the street for probably 6 months on thursday (placing registration into Non-op) and tearing the motor apart for a rebuild. I have developed an oil leak in the head and valve cover and in light of the recent harness replacement and currently pulling the intake manifold off to get down to the CPS for a no start condition after said new harness install, I figured why not just tear the whole thing apart and do it right now since Im already into it. Went out Sunday and bought the wife a new Mini Cooper S to drive daily, this car will retire into a part time car for more special outings. Time to build the motor. I also have requests out to a few of the cam vendors as well as supersprint for pricing and availability of performance parts. Time to bump up this cars performance level to match the looks.

[Vetruck]

ANd now of course I am seeing the 7g-tronic auto trans that looks even more desireable. It has gear ratios that are compatible with me leaving the 3.07's in the rear as optimum. The AMG uses a 3.06 with this 722.9 trans.

7G TRONIC 4.38/ 2.86/1.92/1.37/1/ .82/.73 Rearend- 3.06

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-2012-Mercedes-Benz-7-speed-Transmission-w-Torque-Converter-Rebuilt-/252400086059?hash=item3ac437ac2b

[Chisel86]

When my trans went out I contemplated contacting these guys for a new trans. Maybe they have some insight. IPT - Mercedes Performance Transmissions (http://www.importperformancetrans.com/catalog/mercedes-performance-automatic-transmissions-torque-converters-and-transmission-parts.-51-1.html)

[Vetruck]

My message and his response- doesn't sound promising. I do not like the idea I have to try some kind of tuning on my own to make things compatible. Not spending 1200 on a crap shoot computer setup along with another 2500 for the trans and shifter parts etc. An OEm replacement is just looking easy at this point. WOud spend the money in a heartbeat if it was just a bolt in application and plug the TCU into it, not the case it appears.

[..."I really only supply the tcm package. I can help with what you will need overall though.
So to start the tcm package starts at 1200.00. This includes the tcm, harness, speed sensor kit and software. I also include a starter calibration. The harness is comlplete to the transmission but unterminated for wiring to the vehicle. Engine sensors and shifter will have to be wired.
What you need. Transmission, converter, shifter, possibly driveshaft. If the driveshaft is needed it should be pretty easy to find a c230 with a .6 one to use.
You will also need to modify the shift linkage but again since the car did come with a .6 you could probably just source the linkage from one that had it.
Wiring.
you will need to tap the tps, and rpm from the engine harness. Wire to the shifter. Set up the sensors and the shifter in the calibration and also tire size and diff ratio. Then you should be able to go for a test drive and begin tuning.
I provide support but it is limited. I normally will make sure that you have everything setup properly and then explain the tuning process and then it is mostly up to you. If you are having problems and need help you can send me a current calibration and a datalog of the problem you are having and I will look at it and help out but I cannot tune it for you. If it is really off the I can make some changes to the calibration and send it back but a lot of it is feel.
I am switching over to a new tcm and it is a bit more complicated in some ways but it is much better as an overall product. So I might have something that will work with very little adjustment.

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:15 PM, <sakeed123@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Russell, your name was given to me from a few guys on Club202 forum. I happen to be one of their moderators as well on th suspension board but am not a computer guy by any means.

What I am interested in is swapping a later model 5 sp auto into my 1994 c220 (U.S. spec car. I live in Southern California)Current have of course the 722.4 4sp trans and would like to upgrade to the 722.6 5sp. I am told by a few of the guys that this requires a stand alone TCU and that you are the guy to talk to if this is possible for my application?

If so, what can you offer me in parts, technical assistance, and price? WOuld like to know if you think future change to a 3.67 diff from the current 3.07 would lead to future issues also with trans programming?

This car is going into non-op tomorrow and going onto jack stands for probably 4-6 months. I will be tearing the drivetrain apart with a complete motor rebuild and would like to change the trans during this time as well (whether it be the OEM replacement of hopefully this upgrade to a 5sp auto)


Thank you, Dean..."}

[Vetruck]

One thing I am not keen on is these self proclaimed tuner specialist experimenting with everyone elses cars. I see a video of him on youtube with his own Mercedes where he describes screwing up his own motor at one point.. I did this route with a Edelbrock years ago on a MPFI intake manifold that to this day never ran correctly. Just another snake oil salesman that is guessing at stuff and taking everyones money in the process. Not mine- I'm not your guinea pig.

Now if someone that does have a clue would take one of these electronic trans and turn it into a simple stand alone setup like what guys have done for years now with the 4l60E setups in hot rods- we'd have something. These applications have absolutely 0 to do with engine management and tuning. They are strictly self sufficient modules that drive the trans shifting solenoids wia governor or paddle shifter choice with gear selector mode.

example- and at half the price because its not from what some asshole thinks is a for a "luxury/expensive" style car that everyone that owns one can throw money away at.
http://www.tciauto.com/tc/ez-tcutm-transmission-control-unit-gm-4l60-4l65-4l70-4l80-and-4l85e-to-09html/

[Denlasoul]

One thing I've learned since joining this scene and looking into modding MB's, is that everyone can claim they can do it but whether or not it works properly is a different story.

Although I hate the idea of dropping tons of money on mods, the trusted tuners cost so much for a reason.

edit: Dean, great post. It's nice to read up and see the steps of how to do things properly. I think many people would go the easy route and throw money around and then complain on why something doesnt work. ;)

[Vetruck]

I have extensive experience modifying cars in life over the past 40 years since I was almost 10 years old. I grew up around it and even prior to 10 years old I was a professional flash light holder for my father since I could walk. With that said, the curse of the auto industry has been computer controls. The big companies guard this stuff with there life and form what I know there is probabgly about 100 people in this world that work for the big companies that really know what they are doing, the millions of other "so called auto tuner experts" spend the last 2 to 3 decades trying to figure out how this stuff all works and can not because of how these major companies actually code this software- point is, none of these guys now how to get it right. If they do something them self from scratch then yes, but taping into the major network like Gm or Mercedes or Ferrari, etc??? THey have no clue and are toying with codes that they have no idea how they compute- they do not have the language and never will. How do I know this? I have a twin brother that writes in C++ and is an Avionics specialist for decades. You take a large company like the one I mentioned Edelbrock- With all the reputation and money Edelbrock has, they could not even tap into the GM computer language and get the MPFI intake manifold to run properly off of GM's factory ECM's with their own Edelbrock experts reprogramming the units. They finally had to scrap the entire idea and get out of that field of modifications of vehicle specific applications- they now only sell stand alone fuel injection units that they finally after ears of experimenting just wrote in their own language.

A word of caution to anyone reading this- If someone tells you you have to tap into a factory ECM/ECU etc and have to fine tune things? Don't f'ing waste your money with this two bit cowboy's lies claiming he's an expert. They will all lie or they will fess up like this Russell did and basically back door tell you they don't know actually what the fuck they are doing. It's sad that crooks like this try to take money from people knowing they are not the expert they portray to others they are ...just to make a buck.

Dean

[SGA]

This is Russell.
I am not sure what your problem is. But I am not trying to sell you anything and if it is not what you want or are capable of that is fine. I have sold over 100-150 of these to people all over the world. I have repeat customers and businesses that use this system in repeat vehicles. It is not a plug and play system and that is what it is. Transmission tuning is not a one size fits all setup. There are many variables that make each car different. There is no way to integrate a system that was not in your car originally without wiring. Accessing the necessary sensors is required. And is done all the time without problems.
I am completely honest about the system up front so if it is not for you then that is ok. I probably send more customers away than I sell to.
As far as me having engine failure with my personal car. Sure. I custom made a supercharger system for a car and tuned it and made a lot of power. I do not sell that kit or would I as a plug and play setup as well. I broke stock pistons and have since upgraded to custom forged pistons. It made it a long time as a stock engine and has had no problems since the current build and has many passes down the drag strip and makes over 500hp.
The price of my system is not marked up beyond the standard PCS kits. It just requires some additional parts than a 4l series transmission and I sell those for basically just over cost to reduce my support and make things easier for people. It is a standalone system similar to a standalone engine management such as Motec, Electromotive, AEM, etc. And no one buys one of those as a plug in play setup with no tuning or wiring required. That is the whole point. I could provide a locked down tune for these but it would be very firm shifts and set shift points and it would also pretty much require a known transmission setup such as a factory rebuild transmission that I know the parameters for.
If the car was in front of me at my shop I could install the system and transmission and have it up and running and driving in a couple of days. So I do think that saying that I am experimenting on other peoples cars is not correct or in anyways a fair assessment.
Finally I am sorry that you are disappointed that it is not what you want but if you or anyone has any questions feel free to ask via email or please check out my Facebook page for client cars for happy customers or simply do a search online for happy customers. Peachparts has several threads from some recent clients that are very happy.
But like I said it is not for everyone.

[Vetruck]

Hi Russell, Your email response made it sound like things are extremely vague and that every car is different- interpreted as It's worked for some applications so with that said its a crap shoot and up to you to get it to work for your application. "A starter calibration" makes it sound very amatuer hence why I am so critical. I asked about a stand alone management system and yes you were honest it does not stand alone- there is tapping into the MB system and adjusting settings which I am not keen on doing at all if this requires any kind of intermediate experience with tuning- not my forte' (40 years hot rodding cars tells me if I have not learned it yet I will most likely never).

What puzzles me now is you say in your response that you COULD build a plug and play trans module that would have lock down shift points, then you also say you've dealt with 100-150 of these things- so do you have the experience or not to build one as you put it "locked down tune that shifts firm"? Not many variations to the 722.6 just like there are not many variations to the 4L60E. Whats so hard in making pressure shift points that are fixed like the GM guys do. If it's too firm then I could see sending it back to you to lower or even increase (if too low shift or too soft) but the line pressures would not be that great a difference with 100+ different applications of the same stock transmission.

I am not an expert in this field, I am however and expert in many other things in life and when I do sell a goods or service I am much more covered on an all inclusive package for my customers- otherwise, if I can't provide a full package then I do not deal with half a job.

Let me ask you an honest question and please give an honest answer- Out of those lets say 100 units you've sold to people around the world, How many of those were NOT successful? (that is "what my problem is" to answer your question)

Dean

edit: lets make sure we keep this in the correct tone here. I am not trying to be an ass, What I am doing here is trying to make sure I spend my hard earned money on something that works. Lets please continue this discussion with respect and please if you are coming into here selling a product then this is your opportunity to assure myself and other reading that we have the confidence to use your product. I did state I am a rookie when it comes to computer program controls on a car. I am however a professional in many aspects of motorsport including both mechanics and racing(driving)- so this is by far not my first rodeo.

So we continue here on the correct foot, Let me introduce myself. Hi I'm Dean (Im in the blue shirt)
3024

[SGA]

It will work with pretty much any setup. But the truth is there are literally a ton of different transmissions from Mercedes. Two different ratio sets and within those many different valve bodies, clutch pack setups etc. Dodge valve bodies are different than Mercedes. Now take in variances on used transmissions or a rebuild. Clearances on the clutch packs. Number of clutches, Double sided vs single sided frictions. Look up on the EPC and you can see how many variances there are. I have seen probably 10-20 different clutch pack assemblies for a single element.
Now down to tuning. Ok. So you have a 2.3l gas engine that makes lets say 150hp. Using MAP or using TPS as an input. I tune for that in a specific chassis, gear set MPH shift points etc. Now take that same tune and put a 5.7l engine in front of it that makes 300-400hp. Or a 800-1000 hp application or more. Or change a mph shift point by a fair amount and the load changes. Change the weight of the vehicle by 500-1000lbs. Change the gear ratios from 2.73 gears to a 3.46. All of this is going to change how the shifts work. If I set it up with a locked tune and had to error on the harsh shifts then it would be brutally hard for the 2.3l gas engine c class and decent for the 5.7l application. There are just to many variables. You even have to account for engine mass. A rotating assembly at 0 load with have a big effect on a shift.
Now your 4l60-80 etc. Is a very different transmission and comparing it to a 722.6 is not realistic. The 722.6 is a sequential shift valve body and uses a clutch to clutch strategy for shifting. Tuning is completely different. I would have to give a class on the differences. But basically in the .6 we do not really use line pressure. We have working pressure and that is the closest thing to line. It is the pressure from which all other pressures are derived. And is what is applied to a non shifting clutch pack. A shift is controlled by two pressures. Modulator and Shift pressure. There are two solenoids that we control for this. The modulator pressure also controls the working pressure. So a shift begins by activating the shift solenoid. This moves a valve in the valve body to allow shift pressure to be able to go to the on coming clutch. A balance of the shift presure, modulator pressure and the off coming clutch pressure work on what is called the overlap control valve. This controls the drain rate on the off coming clutch. Shift pressure applies the oncoming clutch. Depending on the apply rate we want a different amount of off rate. Even a small change in a cars setup can make these pressures off.

As far as making a plug and play kit for a 202 chassis. I could do this. If I had a car and set the parameters myself. I could easily sell that as a repeat kit. But that would be for a specific engine and gear set etc. I just need a car and the money. But I am not going to invest in this myself.

As for how many of my customers have been successful. I would say the overwhelming majority. I have maybe had a couple that got in over their heads. I try to help as much as I can and have gotten most through the process. But I have had a couple that just needed someone else to do it for them that understood wiring and how to use a computer. I can really only thing of 2-3 max that were unable or unwilling to do what I asked for to help them.

To the idea that I am going to do the tuning for you if you want it adjusted. I can do that. It justs costs more money. I can fly down and do the install and tune it for you if you would like. I charge 700.00 a day plus travel expenses. It normally takes me a couple of days to really dial in a car to be nice to drive after the install. I do this and can work via email and datalogs. I simply do not make enough on the product to spend more than a couple of hours on the sale and customer support. I have spent way more than that with some and generally look at it like an average. I may have 10 customers that really did not need any help and then one that needs a lot. But I have to call it after so much. Or we are not getting anywhere. I really do this because I like it. I have a regular business and this takes away from that sometimes. I got into it for my own car and it grew from there. There is no business model here that makes any sense and if that is all it was then no one would offer this for this transmission.

[SGA]

As far as being civil. I came here and joined this forum to respond to you saying some pretty awful things about me and what I do. And as far as I can tell you were simply mad that I told you upfront what the product is so you could make an intelligent decision and would know going in what you were getting involved in and that did not meet your expectations. I did not sell it to you and then say tough, that is the way it is or anything of the sort. Like I said it is not for everyone.

[Vetruck]

As far as being civil. I came here and joined this forum to respond to you saying some pretty awful things about me and what I do. And as far as I can tell you were simply mad that I told you upfront what the product is so you could make an intelligent decision and would know going in what you were getting involved in and that did not meet your expectations. I did not sell it to you and then say tough, that is the way it is or anything of the sort. Like I said it is not for everyone.


If you read what I wrote I did not attack you. I said YOU fessed up and were honest about it from the getgo that it is not plug and play. I had a general statement to anyone following this thread about "watch who you trust in tuning" because Ive seen many people lie about experience over the years. COULD I HAVE WORDED THAT BETTER>>>YES. I am know for abrupt language in my personal life and that spills over in forums where I need to realise it is interpreted in various ways. As for selling something you have to babysit? I think it is your responsibility to give proper support and if you do not then I will not buy a product- that is both of our choices in life we will simply have to respect each others choice. Thank you for your response.

[Vetruck]

Russel. Russell, Russell. Where do we stand now? Knowing what I have now discovered- You are in fact a snake oil salesman. You come into here chanting how once someone does not know how to configure your product that you assure them, just as you are trying to do to me, that most everyone that has dealt with this can handle it which is far from the case. Fast is only you can configure the system you wrote yourself but you sell it KNOWING someone is then at your mercy for $700 per day (Are you a lawyer?) plus travel expenses (you are worse then a lawyer) you have them hooked because they do not understand your code language which you hook and bait people into. Like I said, your stuff needs a babysitter that is charging lawyers wages- Crook. Figure it out, make it work, then come back and sell it AFTER you figure out what Ole accomplished and copy him. You have a very nice "looking" system just as I described Edelbrock did as well, but mentioned where that got people- no where but lighter pockets.

You come into here chanting what is my problem knowing full well this video is out there . Your stuff is far too expensive in the long run and complicated yet you are trying to sell it still to unwary people foolishly trusting you. Not me partner. I am usually not this harsh, but now you deserve this and am quite lucky you live far enough from me to toss you into a dumpster.

The guy on this video is being "nice" about describing how he wasted his time with Russell's PCM2000- and yes Rodney found another far better option that did not require brain surgery to install and configure at 40% the cost of your abortion that he could never get to work.

Tell where I am wrong Russell? Careful now, Im a big mean fucking guy that dislikes liars partner.

People- here is a far better solution that actually works- Take 14mins of your life and educate yourself on Russell's product deficiency that this poor guy will never get his money back from Russell.
https://youtu.be/XKrw--4Su1M

[Vetruck]

http://ofgear.dk/index.html

and like I stated in an earlier post. I'm not your guinea pig. Be your own guinea pig Russell. Once you figure out an inclusive package like OLED did, then come back and sell it. Your stuff is half ass right now. So were clear, I don;t hide behind a computer. Im the big SOB on the left and I am easily found at my home track Toyota Speedway In so Calif as well as I travel to many major tracks across the US as a professional. I will bid you caution on what you say here cowboy, I just may be in your town one day soon. Nothing I hate more in internet forums then false or misleading info and people knowingly trying to sell crap that people can not use properly. I already know who you are so I suggest you crawl back into the hole you came from and not respond here. Your next $700 trip just may be to one of my friends house somewhere in this country.


3031

[SGA]

I do not understand you. I did not bait anyone and especially not you. You got the pertinent information about the product and decided it was not for you. That is fine. But you are saying that I tried the opposite. Which I did not. I give everyone the same info and more so they can decide what to do and if they are comfortable. Normally including the software and a calibration etc. to review before the purchase.
I have traveled 2 times for clients. They were just those people. They had the money and did not have the knowledge and new it going in. Good luck to you. I would not sell you anything and I can not understand why you would say things about my product that you have never used and know nothing about. And Ole copied my product by the way. I sold him a controller that he used for several years and he then made his own. He is a very smart guy but by no means is what he is doing anywhere near as sophisticated as what I sell. He has his niche and good for him. But I get his customers asking questions all the time and one of the main things is they can not tune it to be civil to drive.
As far as the Rodney fellow yes he was one of the couple people I mentioned. He was simply unwilling to do anything for me to help him. I sent him several emails asking for a datalog of his problems and sent him a modified calibration file for the 1st one he sent me. He never responded. Like I said I cannot help everyone and I feel really bad when someone is in over their head because I try and make sure that I make it very clear to people about what it entails. But you will always be able to find people that are unhappy with anything. I can tell you honestly though that he did not let me help him. Or ask for help after the 1st datalog.
As far as my rate yes. I have a business. I charge a reasonable fee. Look into what other people charge for tuning services. And I wish a lawyer was only 100.00 an hour.
Good luck to you and please refrain from speaking about me or my product in the future it is obviously not for you and since you have never seen it or used it there is no way for you to intelligently speak about it or compare it to any other product. But if you are in the Pacific Northwest at a race track please give me a yell. I would be happy to give you a ride in one of my cars and we do testing down in Portland on some pretty fast cars and I could show you what we are doing. I can also show you the difference in tunes for the cars I have done. In fact you can see on my facebook page as I provided an example to explain to people the differences a few years back between and N/A car and a turbo car.

[SGA]

These are just a couple of customers that have been vocal about the product and my service. http://http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/370444-722-6-build-5.html#post3600382 (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/370444-722-6-build-5.html#post3600382)

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1842696/5-7-and-a-nag1-finally-working.html

[Vetruck]

Definitely now seriously looking at doing something more like this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GETRAG-238-2WD-6-Speed-Transmission-Perfect-For-Resto-Mods-Dodge-Dakota-/282003776763

A lot more respectable and functional as a sports car since it is only a 4 banger if I can get the Catcams and get this thing up to about 200hp with a six sp. If it were not for the BRABUS full body package, I would dump this car since it is no longer needed ( was the wife's daily commuter) I am a huge fan of lightweight power plants for handling purposes since I built his suspension I would like to take this car into another direction for a weekend driver hitting the town.(strickly for my driving only- wife does not drive manuals). I am really surprised the attention this little luxury box gets especially since I live in probably the luxury car capital of the world with high dollar cars everywhere- it is rare to have a car that you pull up to a light and no one else has. With that said, I find the thought of just selling it something I think I would regret regardless of my current stable of cars. I have connections of compliance law so building a car that falls under compliance laws is not a problem in the event I loose connections or laws get more strict. note this is not nor ever will be a "Race car", It is intended for street use only so 8000 hp is not required (as is the same even for my race cars since I actually prove time and time again I can win in anything (arrogant? yes, but factual as well) I just like a car that another one just like it will never pull up next to you at a stop light.

It is based on the motor parts at this point. If that goes through then Im looking to put a clutch into it.- other wise, a straight rebuild and a fresh 722.4 and leave it be for the wife's alternative vehicle.
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[Vetruck]

Doing more research today, Apparently I think I can confirm the same 722.4 mercedes bolt pattern as the Jeep Wrangler NSG370 manual 6 speed trans. These are even less expensive. Does not look like the G56 (Getrag 238) will bolt to the W202 without an adapter plate. A direct fit of course would be much easier with over the counter componants

https://highgeartransmission.wordpress.com/tag/nsg370-transmission-for-sale/

Great gear ratios that work very well with my current 3.07 rearend.

Current trans (722.4 auto 4sp):
4.25/2.40/1.48/1

NSG370 manual 6sp trans:
4.46/2.61/1.72/1.25/1/0.84

[John Jones Jr.]

Fcuking hell Vetruck, reading the last few posts you'd never think you were a moderator! You'd want to put your ego back in the box.

It's alright informing and assisting people on here of what you know but really that seems to be just spin off of you trying to impress everybody that you are the guru of all car related mechanical aspects.

Seriously, its getting boring and not for the first time. And sadly on that note I have to be candid and say it doesn't encourage me (anyway) to really pay too much attention to your posts or log on to the site more often for that matter.

[Vetruck]

Thats fine. Dont like that i research and spend my money wisely so be it. My experience is what lead to knowing this guy does not have this down yet or ever will.

[Vetruck]

He wants to prove different then post up a video of in car footage of one of his instalks where he drives the car around upshift i ng abmnd downshifting in normal traffic as well as a bit more spirited drinig. All in one 5 min video- not going to hapoen because what ive researched so far is no one can get the 722.6 to shift correctly in a retrofit app.

[Vetruck]

JJJ, I come into here a few hours later to see if there is any response and in the process I re-read what I wrote as well as others here-

In your blind bias against me, what part of this did you fucking fail to read? Repairing and modifying vehicles is ALL about experience. Yes I have that, why does this offend you. And why are you blind to see when I talk about what I do NOT know?You might pull your own head out of your ass partner.


Fcuking hell Vetruck, .... you trying to impress everybody that you are the guru of all car related mechanical aspects.



... I am not keen on doing at all if this requires any kind of intermediate experience with tuning- not my forte' (40 years hot rodding cars tells me if I have not learned it yet I will most likely never)...

...I am not an expert in this field...

...I did state I am a rookie when it comes to computer program controls on a car...

Ever stop to think if I was such an expert on "everything" why i would come into a car forum and talk about possible upgrades and ask questions? You're not very bright are you? Afterall, this is exactly what car forums are about. Discussing things about repairs and modifications in order to better make decisions. I'm making the correct one not using this guy or a 722.6 after my research which started here in this forum.

[Vetruck]

Im having a hard time getting info on these transmissions as for bellhousing pattern and dimensions. Here is a few things Ive dug up so far in searches.

It appears there are in fact a few different bellhousings for the NSG370, Scrolling down this page you can see two of them in a picture where the left appears to have the W202 MB blot pattern. Question is the overall length and where the shifter will come up through at. I "think " so far this is the NSG370 case for the 2.4L Jeep Wrangler/Liberty motor.
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/transmissions/manual/nsg370

A very short video showing a Mercedes 6sp manual trans- the bellhousing looks the same as our W202:
https://youtu.be/PFlTYK_dLj0

Just some more pics and info- this shows a remote shifter which could be modifies if looks easily enough for placement in the W202 console:
http://www.rodionenkin.de/de/pages/mb-superturbodiesel/mb-716.6-6-gang-schaltgetriebe-technische-daten.php

[Vetruck]

This is the 716.6 series transmissions in Mercedes-Benz cars and SUV's. There is a version of it that has an "Automatic slave cylinder" that is a clutchless assembly on the SLK. I need to keep researching the existence of slave cylinders for a clutch pedal assembly- not looking for clutchless in a manual trans- I'm sure this requires computer controls.

I have in fact 100% guarantee confirmed through multiple sources that these 716.6X manual transmissions will in fact fit the M111 engine.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-6-Speed-Gearbox-716-631-SLK-Kompressor-/201588571240?hash=item2eef9d7c68:g:MIwAAOSwjMJXCrg 6

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[John Jones Jr.]

Vetruck there's no need for three posts to reply to my criticism of you name calling people (Russel) and your general small dick mentality and to compound matters you massage your ego into the bargain. Moderator my ass. One post with substance to reply to my post would have done and there's no need either to quote me and edit my quote, how fcuking childish could you get. But hey, am I surprised in your general carry on and your retorts to me, absolutely not.

Do everybody a favor, grow up and behave in civil manner.

[Vetruck]

So you have a more clear answer-

First response was to you - which you bring absolutely zero tech to this post - I think this is referred to as trolling

Second response was to all else reading this in regards to Russell and the operation of 722.6 with his tuning.

both one and two were on my cell phone with limited access.

3rd post was when I was finally on my PC and could sort back through what was said. Your attack and bias against me was proven wrong via quotes. So who's acting childish and not bringing tech to this post? JJJ
As for being a moderator, I am simply a regular person in this forum and asking questions and sorting through research. I moderate the suspension forum.
Don't like asinine response posts then contribute to tech.

[John Jones Jr.]

To sum you up Vetruck, you are just arrogant and ego driven person which makes a lot of you posts unsavory to read. And that's a pity because on the tech aspect there's no doubt your knowledge could assist members here just like myself but as I stated earlier you use this forum to beat your own chest and a by product of that is you passing on tech info, that is not a proper way to behave and it's not nice either.

There's a clear history here as this is not the first thread/post where you are in confrontation with someone. Also, I'm in no doubt what so ever you acted similar or worse on other forums too.

I'm out now, the floor is all yours and good luck.

[Vetruck]

^^^Like I give a shit what you think.


Fucking idiot can't post to the topic.

A-n-y-w-a-y-s.....to the topic-
I have been research all kinds of variations to transmission swaps. I have found numerous adapter plate applications for jeeps to chevy trans, V8 MB adapters to bmw trans,, OM60X series diesels to ford trans,,etc,,,etc. Even taking bellhousing swaps to other retrofits. Problems arise with clutch assemblies, shifter linkages, clocking of the trans positions, etc...all the typical stuff you see with any frankenstien type modifications.

So after all this, as well as hunting for the elusive 717.404 C36 5 speed all through European EBAY etc to no avail (this I will keep trying until I am seriously ready to have to commit and bit the bullet) it looks like right now my decision is to find a clutch pedal/reservoir assembly first and drop my motor and put it on an engine stand for a rebuild top freshen up gaskets, the head, etc. No luck on aftermarket cams from Catcams. They are no longer doing the M111 cams :( after numerous emails with the secretary trying to gather info.

My outlook is to try and convert a BMW E46 M3 5sp manual trans into this car. I have some messages to a few companies getting more intell on specs and priciung for componants. Shifter looks like I can fabricate something fairly easy to work. I am looking into an adapter option wioth a company, but if that does not pan out (which I do not expect it to) then I will resort to purchasing a BMW box and do some experimental (sacrificial) work to if cutting and welding the current auto box flange I have to the BMW box. This will take several cuts and tack welds in short increments to fit the end play and get the alignment correct, but I think this will be a very fun project since I am a very proficient fabricator/welder. What I can;t do I have a professional welder buddy that can with a 3 phase liquid cooled TIG that can.

BMW boxes like I listed are a dime a dozen at around $500 on ebay. A very cheap price for trying such an experiment to see if I can get one to fit.

Dean

Would like to hear from anyone that has heard or seen a BMW box used in a W202?

[Vetruck]

Ive come across a dogleg 5 speed direct fit. Problem I have is its a 1:1 4th, not 5th. Which means I need to go up in the rearend ratio. Currently have 3.07's and would need at least 3.46's. Starting to think doing a BMW 3.91 diff with LSD would be more of a fun project- however- I need to pick up the VSS signal that currently comes from my current 1994 diff. I need to look into VSS signal sensors- possibly one on the driveshaft near the trans output yoke.

this venture would mean adapters for the drive plates/ halfshafts, and still probably with anything I do a custom driveshaft. Can't believe how limited factory parts these cars lack- Ive been research possibilities for days now on end. This option would give me the elusive LSD rearend which is a big void with MB cars. here is the ratio comparisons to my current and what it would yield finished.

3036

3037

[Vetruck]

I came across all the parts I need for a 6 speed swap from a W203 6 sp car in europe. Having everything shipped to me for under $1650 including pedals. Car had 78K on it. I will have a few fitment issues I am expecting, but will work it out and see it I can get the notorious long throw shifting to a little better feel. Cheap enough to experiment with and will certainly be much more fun regardless then what the 4-tronic is.

Gear ratio is 1) 4.46 2)2.61 3)1.72 4)1.25 5)1.00 6).84
4tronic ratio is 1) 4.25 2)2.40 3)1.48 4)1

Also plan to try and use a 3.27 diff in place of my current 3.07

Here are the comparison in shift rpms and gear top speed for current and then 6sp swap with 3.27's
30383039

[Vetruck]

Here is this gear ratio calculator tool for anyone interested.

http://www.cargister.com/calculator-gear-ratio?rpm=6000&final_ratio_teeths

[Vetruck]

Here the parts I have to work with. Should be here in a few days. Coming from Denmark to USA Calif. It is very hard to source any swap parts here in the US unless you completely piece everything together. These fortunately like stated are off a crashed W203 with only 78K. It is a 716.633 trans/ shifter/ flywheel/clutch/slave/ throwout bearing/crossmember
3080

Pedal assembly is out of a Crossfire from here in the states. Already has aluminum pedals that somewhat match my current auto pedal set.These pedal assemblies retrofit into several cars W202, W208, W210, W211, S202, and of course the mentioned the Chrysler crossfire. Comes with master cylinder
3081

my current pedal assembly:
3082

I will also note that luck was on my side. They shipped the parts to me without any extra shipping cost (saved me 200 GBP- the shipping was included to the European Union countries but they sent it to me tin the US without any extra charge. Plus, that next morning was the pullout of GB from the EU and the GBP to USD dropped from 1:48:1 to 1.32:1. Getting everything to my doorstep including the pedals from Florida USA for under $1300. Just a replacement rebuilt 722.4 would cost me $2000. I still have $700(apples to apples) to work with- need to get a clutch reservoir, and have TMR make me a braided line from slave to MC+ fittings- and quite possibly a new clutch based on how this one looks when I get it. Driveshaft fitment will have to wait and see, but probably at most $100-150 for some alterations to my current unit.

[Vetruck]

Update: I'm on a holding pattern. It appears there was loss/damage to my shipment coming from overseas. Looks like I may just be getting a refund and starting over. Time will tell. The foot pedals arrived from a different source though- they are in very nice condition. Just glad this car has been delegated to a spare vehicle/project car- It can sit for months if needed. I am waiting for a final response from the company I bought the parts from to see if they can get an acceptable replacement.
3096

[Vetruck]

Got lucky today and found a rare US spec C-class W203 with a 6sp manual. Car was wrecked with 112K on the clock. Picked up this trans, the dual mass flywheel, shifter, linkage, and mount for $1000 locally. $300 less then the problem purchase I previous had. The clutch and pressure plate seen better days so I will just buy new ones. Project is back on track.
30993100

[Dearlove]

nice work,

I haven't read through the whole thread in a while, but did you consider a 5 speed from a 190e 16v?

[Vetruck]

Way too had to find. yes I was looking for a 1:1 5th gear. This trans will work great. I have been so busy with the race team lately I have not had any time for my own life or cars. I have almost all the parts I need to get this started. just need to get a new clutch/pressure plate and a few little goodies. This will be a slow project but will definitely be finished by the end of this year.Kind of also waiting for some cooler months to get started so I do not sweat to death in the garage.

THis has the 1:1 5th also with the added OD 6th which will make for a nice Vegas run car from so Calif. (4 hour drive)

[Dearlove]

prob going to put one of these in my c36, see if they hold up against the torque

[Vetruck]

They are fairly abundant and different nm choices based on what the gearbox went into from the factory- my car does not and never will see massive power- just a good street runner. Rumor has it the gear throw is a tad sloppy but I can live with that over a mush 4-tronic. ps- I finally got it up off all 4 earlier today-going back out there for a few hours to mess with another vehicle of mine that needs attention. Might get some time today still to tear into it I hope. Just in the house for a lunch break.

What is harder to source is the dual mass flywheel, and the shifter linkage, brace, etc parts. They can be costly if bought separate or if you try to acquire new.
3116

[Gogu48]

They are fairly abundant and different nm choices based on what the gearbox went into from the factory- my car does not and never will see massive power- just a good street runner. Rumor has it the gear throw is a tad sloppy but I can live with that over a mush 4-tronic. ps- I finally got it up off all 4 earlier today-going back out there for a few hours to mess with another vehicle of mine that needs attention. Might get some time today still to tear into it I hope. Just in the house for a lunch break.

What is harder to source is the dual mass flywheel, and the shifter linkage, brace, etc parts. They can be costly if bought separate or if you try to acquire new.
3116


Hi Vetruck, I am from Europe, Romania, and i have the same issue as you, I want to upgrade my car's automatic gearbox(722.4->722.6). Did you manged to make the swap and adapt the computer to the new gearbox?
In Europe I can find this kind of gearbox without problems, but i am interested on how the things worked with your car.

Thanks and best regards,
Gogu.

[Vetruck]

Hi Vetruck, I am from Europe, Romania, and i have the same issue as you, I want to upgrade my car's automatic gearbox(722.4->722.6). Did you manged to make the swap and adapt the computer to the new gearbox?
In Europe I can find this kind of gearbox without problems, but i am interested on how the things worked with your car.

Thanks and best regards,
Gogu.

Ive actually pulled the entire drivetrain and the car is pretty much been in storage for the last year and a half. I have another project I finished 3 months ago and am working on another vehicle right now which may take another few months at most- then I am getting back to the Mercedes project. The Mercedes is just a 4th vehicle and 100% play car so this is why it is sitting in wait. I will not have computer issues with mine since it is a 1994. I have a vacuum controlled automatic trans I took out of it so I do not have computer control issues like the later models. I researched this extensively and this is why I am modifying this car since the 1994 is the only w202 year without this problem.