Alignment Guru's- Need Help- Lowered C Class Scrubbing Tires

[Mercedes Tuner]

Hey Everyone,

I have a C Class that's been lowered a few years ago and have been scrubbing through tires a lot since then. I've done the alignment on the car several times and was wondering if anyone has changed the Ball Point position to correct the steering geometry on a lowered 202, and what it was changed to?

Camber is in spec.
Caster is in spec.
However the toe out on turns is really messed up and I think that's what is causing the tires to scrub off the inner inch of the front tires. Spec is 45 minutes negative and my car is reading 0 minutes, which tells me that there is No toe out on turns. The last alignment check that I did a couple weeks ago actually had the toe out on turns on the positive side. I believe the ball point position is set at 31mm which is spec for vehicles at factory ride height. I'm thinking about rasing the ball point position to 35 mm or 40 mm to try and was wondering if anyone had done this before?

[JRE320]

What type of rims and what's the size?

[Eurosport]

also might wanna try different tires, rounder sidewall

[Mercedes Tuner]

Originally posted by JRE320
What type of rims and what's the size?

Stock 17 inch AMG's

Using Michelin Pilot Sport's 225/45 front 245/40 rear

I normally use a Kosei 17x8 with 245/40 tires all around, however for the past few months, I've been driving around on the stock wheels again since its easier to set the alignment up and keep checking and adjusting the alignment.

[Eurosport]

hmmm well with those stock tires shouldn't really rub
where's this rubbing on the inner part of the tire or the outter?
because there's really 2 easy ways to fix it, either get a step higher pads put on or roll your fenders a little bit more...

[Renn 208]

Originally posted by Eurosport
hmmm well with those stock tires shouldn't really rub
where's this rubbing on the inner part of the tire or the outter?
because there's really 2 easy ways to fix it, either get a step higher pads put on or roll your fenders a little bit more...

He's not rubbing, but scrubbing through front tires even though all seems to be in spec. He's also gone to higher pads, and rolling fenders will not help with the problem.

[pnsji]

When you say the chamber is in spec, what is the number?

In general, once you lowered the car, your chamber will be more negative. This makes the inner side of the tires worn out much quicker.
One thing you could do is simple get a chamber adjustment.

[Eurosport]

ooooh ic
i misread my bad

[benzdude280]

I have the same exact problem so if you figure out the problem let me know. Thanks.

[Mercedes Tuner]

I'll get the official specs and I'll bring home the last 2 alignment sheet's that I've done.

All the alignment's that I've done are on the Hunter HTA-MB at the Dealer, using the W202 Sport Settings and Euro Specs.

Taking a Guess at what the last alignment was set at.

Front Ride Height: -3.3* - Spec: 5* positive
Rear Ride Height: -3.2* - Spec: 2.5* positive

Rear Camber: -2.3* - Spec: -50 minutes
Front Camber: -2.3* -Spec: -30 minutes

Front Caster: 5*25 minutes - Spec: 5*40 minutes

Rear Toe: 14 Minutes Toe'd in at each wheel- Spec: 16 minutes each

Front Toe: 8 Minutes Toe'd in at each wheel- Spec: 12 minutes each

Toe out on Turns: 8 Minutes at 20* Turning Angle- Spec: -45 minutes

I already have all 4 of the front alignment correction bolts in. I have the Camber Bolts reducing negative camber/ increasing positive caster and I have the Caster Bolts increasing positive caster/ increasing negative camber.

What it is that I am unsure of is if I were to change the Ball Point Position to correct the steering geometry at a much lower ride height, how will that effect the toe change during suspension travel then. I think its the toe out on turns that's causing the tire scrubbing issue and causing the tires to fight each other during cornering, So that's why I'm debating about adjusting that, but I figured someone else has come across this issue before and would know what the cause/fix would be in this case.

[pnsji]

So your chamber now is -2.3 degree. This makes the inside of your tires worn out very quickly.
What you could do is to get chamber correction kit from speedy benz to get back to spec.

[Mercedes Tuner]

Originally posted by pnsji
So your chamber now is -2.3 degree. This makes the inside of your tires worn out very quickly.
What you could do is to get chamber correction kit from speedy benz to get back to spec.

The camber is not causing this tire wear. Infact with the way that I drive and all the autocrossing that I do with the car, the tires actually wear pretty evenly across the tire, with the exception of the very inside edge. Unfortunately I just swapped out the front tires for some other ones now, or else I would have taken a photo and posted the tire wear.

This would be a weird analogy but if this ( ______________ )
was a tire wearing evenly.

This ( \____________ ) is what my front tires wear like on the inner edge

[J Irwan]

I was going to reply but I still don't understand what you mean by scrubbing..?



Normally the dillema of lowered car would be un-even tread-wear in which the inside of the tire worn faster. (as a result of more negative camber).


Maybe a pic will be most effective in explaining what's going with your tires.


Regardz,

[Mercedes Tuner]

Originally posted by J Irwan
I was going to reply but I still don't understand what you mean by scrubbing..?

By the tires Scrubbing, is another way of saying that the tires are fighting against each other wanting to go different directions, but can't due to being attached to the vehicle.

By this happening, its like dragging the tires sidways along the road.

I need to setup my new scanner, so I'll see about posting the alignment sheets later.

[J Irwan]

Are you referring to tire cupping..??


Regardz,

[Mercedes Tuner]

Originally posted by J Irwan
Are you referring to tire cupping..??


Regardz,

Nope, tire cupping is what happens when you have worn suspension components and/or worn shocks and causes the tire to get large dimples similiar to what a golf ball would have, except on a much larger scale.

Alignment info: http://www.tireguides.com/tip14.html

Scroll down to the bottom and check out toe out on turns, ackerman angle. This is about what I have, except the wear on my tires is in half the area that's shown on this tire. The front tires on my car are only wearing the first 1/2 inch to 1 inch of the inside edge of the tires. the rest of the tires have normal tire wear.

[Mercedes Tuner]

Update!

I changed the ball point position tonight and moved the ball point up by 5mm. Originally the ball point was at 31mm. Now the ball point is at 36mm.

Initially the steering wheel felt slightly tighter as if the steering now had less play in it. Upon driving the car, it now seems to handle bumps in the road better and the car wanders around much less then it originally did. I'm going to leave this setting for a while and see what happens to the tires.

During the wheel alignment after changing the ball point position, it did not seem to effect anything in the steering once it was changed. The toe out on turns seemed to stay the same (which I thought was pretty weird) but we'll see what happens in some time.

During high speed cornering the front tires seemed to have more grip once the weight of the vehicle transfered to that side. This seemed weird at first, almost like the tire was rolling over on the sidewall, but once I started to play with it, it seemed like the car cornered much better and was more stable.

As far as making tight turns it still feels like the tires scrub some. It seems like the steering wheel returns to the center better then it did originally, but after a certain point when the wheel is turned, it still decides to keep turning till it hits the stop at full steering lock.

[benzdude280]

Thanks for the update. Let me know your results when you get to that point. I just changed my tires and I feel the same exact stuff that you describe. I guess I will just buy the cheapest tire I can find in the meantime.

Cheers!

[Mercedes Tuner]

Sure No Prob! :D


Originally posted by Mercedes Tuner
During high speed cornering the front tires seemed to have more grip once the weight of the vehicle transfered to that side. This seemed weird at first, almost like the tire was rolling over on the sidewall, but once I started to play with it, it seemed like the car cornered much better and was more stable.

To add to this, after driving the car around for a while since then, I figured out what might be causing this. It seems as there might be a slight toe change when cornering which could be causing the car to all of a sudden turn more in the middle of a turn. Its very slight, but it does feel a little weird.