DYNO Chart w202 C43/55

[coolcarlskic43]

Unfortunately my 2nd best dyno run was found by the guys at ICS.I hope they send me that file tomorrow.My best was 295@311TQ. This one is still pretty damn good and I can't complain.Remember my car only has a cat back and stck AMG muffler.Here it is:
http://img93.echo.cx/img93/8250/scan00068fc.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img93.echo.cx/img93/5288/scan00070gt.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[J Irwan]

Nice...

that is some impressive number..:)

So did you end with using E55 ECU module or you had Donie ripping the C43 module ?



Regardz,

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by J Irwan
Nice...

that is some impressive number..:)

So did you end with using E55 ECU module or you had Donie ripping the C43 module ?



Regardz, No I ended up using the E55 ECU and traction control module.It would have cost me 1k+ driving ,time off from wrk, mileage,gas,toll ,hotel to drive from NYC to Atl to get this done by Donnie.Not wrth it.

[Ashkan's C280]

wait so its 290 hp? i thought normal c43 had 305? I think I am missing something

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by Ashkan's C280
wait so its 290 hp? i thought normal c43 had 305? I think I am missing something LOL!:D Yes you are, That # means 290 hp to the wheels.At the crank it's calculated to be about 355hp to the flywheel. The C43 is about 238hp to the wheels(whp) and 302hp to the flywheel.;)

[99amgc43]

i thought a c43 has more whp than that stock

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by 99amgc43
i thought a c43 has more whp than that stock Thought like Nelly! :D


CLK 430 has 223-227 whp.We dynoed all three cars last week and it's pretty consistent with the results of others.Goto www.myhps.com and www.mbautowerks.com .

[Josh R]

The difference between the CLK 430 and the C43 hp wise is that the C43 uses the CLK 55 air intake that is worth 15 to 20 ponies over a CLK 430 air intake.

[98c43amg]

Originally posted by Josh R
The difference between the CLK 430 and the C43 hp wise is that the C43 uses the CLK 55 air intake that is worth 15 to 20 ponies over a CLK 430 air intake.

:ermm: ....yer kid'n right...? ya think the =airbox= is what's making all the difference? (not the cam? not the exhaust?) and ya realize the C43 was developed a few years before the CLK55 ever was...so then I'm guessing the AMG designers couldn't find a better use for their time-machine then to go forward in time to see what the AMG-ized CLK would be using for an airbox to use it on the C43 when they were developing it in 1996 or 1997...? :confused:

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by Josh R
The difference between the CLK 430 and the C43 hp wise is that the C43 uses the CLK 55 air intake that is worth 15 to 20 ponies over a CLK 430 air intake. NOPE! Your INCORRECT.The difference is the camshafts,springs,and retainers.Cams are hotter,springs and the rest of the parts are lighter and stronger.For ex: We had a CLK430,C43 and my car at the dyno.My friend has an AMG style airbox on his CLK and posted 225-227whp.My friend Curtis posted a consistent 238whp in his C43.The area under the TQ in both cars was different as well.So NO! The airbox has no bearing especially on the dyno because it's a ram flow styled intake system.There is no greater hp increase from the poorly engineered AMG airbox compared to the E430's airbox.

[Josh R]

On the contrary, I once had to R&R both cylinder heads on a C43 and while the repair had to be done to the cylinder heads I measured the lift and duration of the camshafts from the C43 to some camshafts from a 210 430 and the findings where the same. Not to burst your bubble, but lets say that they cams where to be different. The horsepower gains would be far greater than if it was just an airbox.

Also we are not discussing an E430 air intake. We are discussing the difference between the CLK and the C43. If I'm not mistaken the E55 and E430 share similar air boxes. The CLK430 and CLK55 share different boxes.

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by Josh R
On the contrary, I once had to R&R both cylinder heads on a C43 and while the repair had to be done to the cylinder heads I measured the lift and duration of the camshafts from the C43 to some camshafts from a 210 430 and the findings where the same. Not to burst your bubble, but lets say that they cams where to be different. The horsepower gains would be far greater than if it was just an airbox.

Also we are not discussing an E430 air intake. We are discussing the difference between the CLK and the C43. If I'm not mistaken the E55 and E430 share similar air boxes. The CLK430 and CLK55 share different boxes. All of the V8 NA AMG's have the same airbox.The E430 box is an entirely different setup like on the old inline and newer V 6's.It's placed on the passenger side of the engine. My friend(99 CLK430) and I both took off our air boxes and while his has the newer style V8 cover when taken off the car and put together with mine his CLK air box is exactly the same.The E430 is the only car with a different air box.All 2k -2002 and newer S430,500,CL500,CLK430,500,SL500,ML430,500 air boxes are the same style as the AMG boxes.Ram Air.


Why could'nt the crazee AMG/MB engineers take a clue from BMW M division and build a similar total intake style to the E39 M5,where each cylinder has it's own intake with the plastic ram air intake sitting over all eight trumpets. .Had to be cost.

I can't argue with your cam findings since you physically did the measurements.I can only go by what the graph on the dyno shows under the curves.So what else other than ECU programming could be different?The ECU's are totally different .

The injectors on the AMG C43 4.3L motor are also the same green injectors on the 5.5L motor I purchased.The E430 and CLK 430 use pink injectors(21.5lbs).


AMG has stated that it has put hotter cams and valve components in the C43 as opposed to the engines in the other cars using the 4.3L motor.So I don't entirely agree with you on the cams unless it's all done with the ECU programming.Especially based on the Dyno info taken on both cars on the same dyno,one car right after the other.But hey ,it'still interesting info and I am open to hearing your findings.Especially the port wrk and flow info on the heads.

I will definitely be constructing a cold air intake for my car this spring.The stck one BLOWS.Thanx Josh for the info.

[alphanumeric]

that is just crazy how much power lose is in this car? what gives? its almost like the powertrain lose on an AWD car!

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by alphanumeric
that is just crazy how much power lose is in this car? what gives? its almost like the powertrain lose on an AWD car! Well,yes it's bad but not as bad!;) If you look at the intake mani and airbox design on an M5,You know that motor is getting alot more air.Think about it,it's also a 4.8 or 4.9 L motor putting out 400hp vs our 4.3 (302),5.0(302) and 5.5 (355)hp.The M3 has 330 US and 343 hp UK.They just do better engineering with their motors in my opinion.Also the intakes on their motors are so much superior.

[josh k]

Originally posted by coolcarlskic43
NOPE! Your INCORRECT.The difference is the camshafts,springs,and retainers.Cams are hotter,springs and the rest of the parts are lighter and stronger.For ex: We had a CLK430,C43 and my car at the dyno.My friend has an AMG style airbox on his CLK and posted 225-227whp.My friend Curtis posted a consistent 238whp in his C43.The area under the TQ in both cars was different as well.So NO! The airbox has no bearing especially on the dyno because it's a ram flow styled intake system.There is no greater hp increase from the poorly engineered AMG airbox compared to the E430's airbox.

I have the AMG airbox on my CLK430 and dyno'd 235 whp. I have 108k miles on my car.

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by josh k
I have the AMG airbox on my CLK430 and dyno'd 235 whp. I have 108k miles on my car. Can you post it?Pretty good.The dyno we used gives very conservative #'s as some will show a C43 putting out 245-254whp in comparison to a Clk.Everybody's dyno will be different.Put the C43 on the same dyno you used and the whp will be higher than yours.As I said also ,it's the area under the dyno curve that's more important than the whp #.Please post your dyno run if you can.

[josh k]

Sure everyone's numbers will be the different. My torque is probably a bit down because of my heavy 19" wheels, and the car could definitely use a tune up.

I doubt a C43 would be much higher. I've never lost a race to one (dead even)

http://users.adelphia.net/~joshkeaton/CLKBaseDynoweb.jpg

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by josh k
Sure everyone's numbers will be the different. My torque is probably a bit down because of my heavy 19" wheels, and the car could definitely use a tune up.

I doubt a C43 would be much higher. I've never lost a race to one (dead even)

http://users.adelphia.net/~joshkeaton/CLKBaseDynoweb.jpg race vs hp two different things entirely! You should know that.As far as racing is concerned,the C43 is heavier than a CLK 430 and it also depends on the driver and car. CLK 55 beats the E55 one day and Vice versa.Both have different TQ and HP #'s.Whether you were dead even or beat him has no strong bearing on the dyno #'s IMOP.

[josh k]

Originally posted by coolcarlskic43
As far as racing is concerned,the C43 is heavier than a CLK 430 and it also depends on the driver and car.


CLK weight 3444, C43 weight 3469. Not a big difference; and it's not that hard to stomp on the gas. There's not really any shifting involved on an auto. I guess you could factor launch into it, but I've raced from a stop and from a roll at various speeds. ;0)

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by josh k
CLK weight 3444, C43 weight 3469. Not a big difference; and it's not that hard to stomp on the gas. There's not really any shifting involved on an auto. I guess you could factor launch into it, but I've raced from a stop and from a roll at various speeds. ;0) I'm not so concerned about the racing,it's the hp and TQ curves that I'm more interested in.I will post the 238whp C43 dyno and compare it to yours even though the two cars have been obviously dynoed on two different dyno's.

[J Irwan]

Originally posted by josh k
CLK weight 3444, C43 weight 3469. Not a big difference; and it's not that hard to stomp on the gas. There's not really any shifting involved on an auto. I guess you could factor launch into it, but I've raced from a stop and from a roll at various speeds. ;0)

Food for thought :


so that means if I have a monkey stomp on your CLK430 and I will drive the other C43 you raced the other day...

the outcome will still be the same.. ?


It doesn't matter auto or manual, the driver still a big factor when racing.... Plus with the adaptive auto tranny that also could make significant different on shifting point ;).

Granted with Auto-tranny it is easier to get the best launch (compare to manual tranny), but at the end the driver still play a big role..


Regardz,

[josh k]

Originally posted by J Irwan
Food for thought :


so that means if I have a monkey stomp on your CLK430 and I will drive the other C43 you raced the other day...

the outcome will still be the same.. ?

I am a monkey Irwan, what are you trying to say? ;0):D

[Renn 208]

but the point of this particular side discussion is whether or not the 55 airbox improves significantly vs. the stock clk430 airbox correct?

So if Josk K's before and after 55 airbox dynos show a significant improvement, then the case is closed is it not?

**********

Then I guess the secondary question is...is the C43 engine really tuned internally?, or is it a stock 430 engine with minor external improvements (i.e. airbox, ecu...what have you)

To solve that, I'd either like a part number or specific numeric comparisons between the C43 Engine and the non-amg M113 430. Just stating "it's got hotter cams, different springs and retainers" is not enough without something to back it up.

How do the cam profiles compare? Does anyone even have lift and duration info on the C43 and CLK430?

A quick look at the mbusa specs, and the differences I see listed (not that this is an exhaustive list) are higher flow fuel injectors for the C43, a modified intake manifold, AMG chip tuning...perhaps it's possible those things are the difference between the two?

If we assume for the moment, that switching from a 430 Airbox to a 55 airbox makes any kind of difference, taking the listed differences into account, I think we're well within the range of dyno variance as displayed by both carski's and josh k's experience...

Tuning is a lot more art and luck, than the perception of it as a hard and fast science...also given that the tools to measure performance aren't precise down to the 10ths, anything short of night and day gains will always be subject to a certain level of perception.

[Josh R]

I've had the "AMG" manifold for the C43 apart and had a stock 430 one apart also and there is no visable difference. Even when the manifolds where swapped there wa no gain on the dyno. Certain years did get different injectors yes that is true. But if the C43 is to have hotter cams than the 430 I would "assume" the gains at the rear wheel should show 250+ hp instead of high 30's or low 40's. I'll see if Josh would like to come down and do a before test using a stock CLK 430 airbox than we will use a stock CLK 55 both boxes using genuine paper filters to show the true gains one will recieve through this airbox. If someone should have a stock baseline dyno of a C43 could they post it please.

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by Josh R
I've had the "AMG" manifold for the C43 apart and had a stock 430 one apart also and there is no visable difference. Even when the manifolds where swapped there wa no gain on the dyno. Certain years did get different injectors yes that is true. But if the C43 is to have hotter cams than the 430 I would "assume" the gains at the rear wheel should show 250+ hp instead of high 30's or low 40's. I'll see if Josh would like to come down and do a before test using a stock CLK 430 airbox than we will use a stock CLK 55 both boxes using genuine paper filters to show the true gains one will recieve through this airbox. If someone should have a stock baseline dyno of a C43 could they post it please. I tell you what,when I go to the dyno with my C43/55 again,I'll use both my stck air box and my friends CLK airbox and I'm almost 100% positive there will be lil or no difference.



Originally posted by Josh R
But if the C43 is to have hotter cams than the 430 I would "assume" the gains at the rear wheel should show 250+ hp instead of high 30's or low 40's.





With the hp gains ,yes and no! I like to see dyno graph's which sort of make hp and Tq #'s alot more conclusive than mere speculation.The #'s could be similar ,but the important thing to me is where are the cars making the power and TQ on the rpm curve.The E36 3.0L m3(240 hp @at 6,000 rpm 225 lb/ft @ 4,250 rpm) and 3.2L m3 (240 hp @ 6,000 rpm 236 lb/ft @ 3,800 rpm )make the same hp and slightly different tq #'s but where they are making the power is the question as far as I'm concerned. This may not be the greatest ex. because one motor does have .2L more displacement.

[Josh R]

LOL, The test has to be performed on a 430 powerplant not a 55. Camshafts typically rock the curve. Remember the original question is why the C43 has @25 more hp than a CLK. I've already stated where the gains come from, the airbox. I'll post the results. Its not like we are trying to prove a 60 horsepower gain here.

P.S. Do you think the 430 motor in the C43 is hand assembled like the 55 motors are?

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by Josh R
LOL, The test has to be performed on a 430 powerplant not a 55. Camshafts typically rock the curve. Remember the original question is why the C43 has @25 more hp than a CLK. I've already stated where the gains come from, the airbox. I'll post the results. Its not like we are trying to prove a 60 horsepower gain here.

P.S. Do you think the 430 motor in the C43 is hand assembled like the 55 motors are? It doesnt matter 43 or 55 engine if there's a hp gain with a particlar airbox it should still show up. We are looking to see if there is a actual hp gain from the air box so the 55 motor would definitely be the constant to see whether that's true.We will also try both boxes on a 4.3L CLK and C43.I will put the clk airbox on my car and then I'll put mine back on at the dyno run.


They say the C43 motor is handbuilt.






An air filter box is not gonna make a 25hp difference alone on a N/A car.

[98c43amg]

Originally posted by Josh R
I've had the "AMG" manifold for the C43 apart and had a stock 430 one apart also and there is no visable difference.
[snip]

...the 430 (CLK I'm assuming?) uses a two-stage manifold? What year is that? I thought that was exclusive to the AMG. (?)

[josh k]

Originally posted by 98c43amg
...the 430 (CLK I'm assuming?) uses a two-stage manifold? What year is that? I thought that was exclusive to the AMG. (?)

nope, my car has the variable runner length manifold as well. All CLK430's had this motor.

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by josh k
nope, my car has the variable runner length manifold as well. All CLK430's had this motor. By the way was your dyno run done prior to putting on the Evosport pullies or after?:rolleyes:


The CLK430 and C43 (both are friends of mine) are going to race this week.I'll keep everybody posted. I think I'll throw one of my Bimmers in the Equation. Stck blue M3 and a modded blk 332i(325i with M3 3.2L):cool: http://img72.exs.cx/img72/6527/test13ko.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
99M3 estroil Blue/BLK94 332i Just 2 out of my 4 lovely children.

(blk 332i/325) 3.2L mtr,Schrick cams,3.5"euro HFM,24lbs inj,TMS chip,Cosmos CAI,full SS exhaust system, full 97 M3 suspension Control arms,subframes ,eibach springs,bilstein shocks,xbrace

[josh k]

Originally posted by coolcarlskic43
By the way was your dyno run done prior to putting on the Evosport pullies or after?:rolleyes:


Those pulleys were junk. The gains they advertise were from a 55 motor, my car saw no gain. Sold within a week. I should probably take them off my modlist.

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by josh k
Those pulleys were junk. The gains they advertise were from a 55 motor, my car saw no gain. Sold within a week. I should probably take them off my modlist. I was never a big pulley fan especially for the ridiculous amt of money they charge for them.I'm sure there are better mods that I can do with my car for that amt of money.The price to me is RIDICULOUS for the lil and unnoticable hp claims they are supposed to give.

[josh k]

Originally posted by coolcarlskic43
I was never a big pulley fan especially for the ridiculous amt of money they charge for them.I'm sure there are better mods that I can do with my car for that amt of money.The price to me is RIDICULOUS for the lil and unnoticable hp claims they are supposed to give.

On this much we agree! :0)