View Full Version : kompressor or a turbo?
i'm sorry if it was mentionned b-for, yet i need to know expert opinion in my special case...
so for a c180
kompressor or turbo?
in terms of:
1-cost (which is most costly) (i think it's the turbo but just to be sure)
2-cost efficient (i'll get the most output (performance) fronm the inputs(cash))
3-fuel efficient (which will increase my fuel consumption more?)
4-which is more guaranteed and easier to install?
5-do i need larger injectors in both?
kindly reply, for me to set my aim: kompressor, or
turbo, or
none?
hey,
Im no expert but will try my best anyhow...
Turbo +'s:
-High efficiency(being the temperature of charged air versus ambiant at a given pressure)
-low drive losses if correctly matched(gauged by exhaust backpressure)
-easy to adjust boost pressure
positive displacement SC(roots or screw type)+'s:
-great initial on-tap boost
-slightly easier install in some cases
-doenst require oil or water feed
-cheap buy in.
Turbo -'s:
-higher cost for total packge
-needs oil and sometimes water feed
-creates more underbonnet heat
-more spool up time needed for on boost(somtimes almost nothing depending on match)
-slightly harder to match to application
SC -'s:
-roots type has low Eff,screw type is better.
-both require alot of HP from the crank(more so the roots type)
-belt/pully sizes need to be changed for boost changes
apart from roots and screw type,there is also the centrifugal SC,which is usually used on larger displacement engine to provide more in the mid-high RPM range...
they all will need ECU tunning and fuel system upgrade
if they are to be used on your 180
with that said...anything i missed guys??
from this its fairly safe to assume that if your on a buget SC is the way to go
if you want best HP and easy boost control go turbo
both are reliable if installed correctly
they will both increase fuel consumtion,hard to calculate weather which one is higher due to turbine sizing,SC pully sizing and speed...and wheather or not you run a Bypass or magnetic clutch in the SC system also.
Regards,
Paul
Abuimad
12-22-2005, 11:37 AM
23k pretty much summed it all up :D
oh and turbo sounds better
but were r u gonna find a mechanic to do u a turbo or a supercharger in lebanon ?
they will both increase fuel consumtion,hard to calculate weather which one is higher due to turbine sizing,SC pully sizing and speed...and wheather or not you run a Bypass or magnetic clutch in the SC system also.
man my car came with its catalogue from the mother company....
i dunno the exact numbers, but it was mentionned that a c23k is more fuel efficient than a c220, and in some cases very close to the c180.... i was surprised to tell u the truth but this is what they said!
Originally posted by Abuimad
23k pretty much summed it all up :D
oh and turbo sounds better
haha I was going to say it sounded better!,just a personal preference:cool:
SC whine drives me nuts!
oh and added a alittle about the centrifical SC up there too...
Originally posted by iced
man my car came with its catalogue from the mother company....
i dunno the exact numbers, but it was mentionned that a c23k is more fuel efficient than a c220, and in some cases very close to the c180.... i was surprised to tell u the truth but this is what they said!
really?,ill have to check mine when i get back home next week.
usually any FI system is less economical under no-boost conditions because you either have a turbine causing back pressure,or an SC pully driving a magnetic clutch or fixed pully along with lower compression,i would say the 230K bypass with magnetic clutch would be more economical then the average Turbo setup though...
lol man there's so much tecknical words in 23k's post it made me lost!
1- how much HP will a SC add to my 180, and how much will a turbo do? or is it better to just install a 35-50HP nos andget it over with?
2-23k: man can u explain more about the types of SC: roots, screw, centrifical?
3-how much difference will the price be between the 2? and a quick question, will a 202 180 with kompressor installed outrun an e30 325 (bmw 87-88)?:rolleyes:
Originally posted by iced
lol man there's so much tecknical words in 23k's post it made me lost!
1- how much HP will a SC add to my 180, and how much will a turbo do? or is it better to just install a 35-50HP nos andget it over with?
2-23k: man can u explain more about the types of SC: roots, screw, centrifical?
3-how much difference will the price be between the 2? and a quick question, will a 202 180 with kompressor installed outrun an e30 325 (bmw 87-88)?:rolleyes:
hmmm big questions...
1.maybe best to ask around,I know koolvin had the 180 turbo setup,but no idea of the HP numbers...Anyone else know??
2a.Roots type SC:
this is a positive displacement SC...it uses two counter rotating intermeshing sets of lobes to trap air between the lobes until it reaches the outlet port...Like a "pump"
they are cheap to buy,and provide the best boost responce due to the lower RPM needed to produce it
they are however the least efficient due to there "pump" characteristics...
they are used on the 230K etc,they dont really suit the name "Kompressor"...
2b.Twin-screw type SC:this is also a positive displacement SC,the difference between it and the roots is that it compresses air internally by the means of two intermeshing screws
they have a much higher efficiency than the roots...but they are also more expensive to produce.
2c.The centrifigul(not centrifical,my mistake) SC:
this uses a similar compressor to that found on a turbo,though it is driven by a very high-geared box,boost is created at the square of the impeller speed...
this makes it suited to engines with breathing problems in the higher RPM...like V8's.
3.cant help you there!...but i would like to think it was faster;)
Regards,
Paul
man u said u r no expert!
neways, thnx for the valuable info....
now which kind of sc is the most suitable with ma case?
hey no problem,Iv ownd a few books on SC/turbo system matching installation for the past few years,if your really keen you should find your local tech book store,or search the net,i find the books to be much better though...
i would say if you were to use an SC,go with a screw type,if your tight for cash go with the roots type.
if i were you i would save and go turbo:D:D:D
man like i heard from some local experts, turbo will cost me less than a SC!!! lol
and no mecanin in here knows how to install SC the right way, they just take a kompressor from a c and install it into mine without expert calculations....and there r few mecanics who could help me with the turbo....
it' just that turbo has a very notorious reputation ragarding the many afte-installation problems....
and i'm still confused about fuel consumtion, b-co many says that turbo reduces yur fuel consumption, or at least don't increase it! and i am concerned with fuel consumtion coz in ma country, the prices r astronomical.....
Abuimad
12-24-2005, 02:42 AM
yeah were u are the mechanics are mch more pro's in turbo's than in superchargers so i say go for the turbo
btw the prices in leb are much less than the prices in countries were most ppl r from here...uk, usa, germany etc
Originally posted by iced
it' just that turbo has a very notorious reputation ragarding the many afte-installation problems....
yip the risk is there,iv seen many custom installs go bad....
If installed correctly,there should be no problems,heat is the big enemey,the more you isolate/eliminate it the better the system...
Oil leaks around the turbo is another let down area,some installers do not spend enough time making sure the feeds/outlets are secure and will withstand engine movment and vibration...
with that said....im going to buy a mini fire exstinguisher when mines in....the exhaust housing will be close to the fire wall,i cant risk not having one!
so guys in just 1 word, turbo fr the 180?
do i go for it, or is it not that worth it?
Originally posted by iced
so guys in just 1 word, turbo fr the 180?
do i go for it, or is it not that worth it?
hmmm...i guess it depends on what "Worth" means to you
...if your after super performance for your dollar...i'd say no..
if your like me and enjoy the journey just as much if not more then the destination,then go for the FI
opps,more than one word:D
...if your after super performance for your dollar...i'd say no..
if i m, what do u suggest (keeping in mind, that i also want some relatively fuel efficiency)? i mean wht r ma options?
If you are after big performance,i would say start with a car that was made for more performance,its hard to take a fuel efficient cruiser and turn it into a performance car...there will always be give and take...
for the performance orientated,the smaller engine 202's are far from a good base start...
wieght is not on your side...
neither is a good variety of parts avaliable to make it all better simply because there isnt a market for it...
keeping in mind cost will be somwhat high,whichever road you choose to FI,if your worried about fuel Eff than maybe you should consider just doing basic engine mods like induction/exhaust etc and leave out the FI...
hope this helps make your decision clearer!;)
man as far as i know, in my country turbo is far less expensive than many other aftermarket performance tuning.....
and for the fuel efficiency: i mean a c180 turbocharged will have the same (roughly) performance as a c230k or a c280.... the question is:
a- which of the 3 will be cost efficient
b- which will have the lowest fuel consumption, and is it by a big difference?
c- let's say i'm going for a c36 or a c43.... what will be the range of the fuel consumption, if i was to drive them in the city (lotta traffic jams)?
an there's one thing for sure: whatever it is, i'm not going for a japanese car, not even a bimmer, coz really the mb cars makes me feel like i'm driving a car, that's why i hate bimmers, the interior is so cheap and plastic-like (excluding the new ones of course: but since i'm not going for a 80k+ car:rolleyes: )
Originally posted by iced
man as far as i know, in my country turbo is far less expensive than many other aftermarket performance tuning.....
and for the fuel efficiency: i mean a c180 turbocharged will have the same (roughly) performance as a c230k or a c280.... the question is:
a- which of the 3 will be cost efficient
b- which will have the lowest fuel consumption, and is it by a big difference?
c- let's say i'm going for a c36 or a c43.... what will be the range of the fuel consumption, if i was to drive them in the city (lotta traffic jams)?
an there's one thing for sure: whatever it is, i'm not going for a japanese car, not even a bimmer, coz really the mb cars makes me feel like i'm driving a car, that's why i hate bimmers, the interior is so cheap and plastic-like (excluding the new ones of course: but since i'm not going for a 80k+ car:rolleyes: )
i could not tell you which one of the FI types is the most fuel Eff in numbers...there is just so many factors...
maybe another member could tell you how well the 36 or 43 does in traffic.
i also have no idea what it could cost,you could use budget parts,your mechanics may charge half what they do in other countries....
but at a guess,if you ran a SC with a magnetic clutch and bypass system(like the 230K) it would most likely be more economical in traffic and open road then say a small A/R turbine housing...
as for on boost economy,i would say the turbo wins.
If turbo systems are cheap over there,maybe you should get together some prices?
do you know what is required to fit one?
Regards,
Paul
well paul....
in grosso modo, i know that for a turbo i need:
turbo-bov-intercooler-pipings-oil return (i think)- gauges-manifold-dumpvalve-wastegate,
someway to lower the compression of my engine.
but since i'm still on the planning phase, i wouldn't pay so much attention to it...but once i make ma decision, well it'll be another thing.
and man for the efficiency i was asking: does really a turbocharged 180 outrun a c230k and a c280?
and i just heared from a newcomer (the one with the baby blue car) that he had carlsson enlarging his enginge displaCEMENT FROM 1.8 to 2.5, givig him 190bhp...... what do u think bout this idea?
180 could outrun a 230K or a 280 for sure it just depends on how much you have to spend.
increasing the displacemant is a very expensive way to gain HP.
have you thought about finding a 230K engine and dropping it in along with the ECU etc?
well there is this guy who want's to get an engine swap... to put a c43 or smthin like that, he has a c230k, so i assume he'll sell it for a good price.... he's a member here, i tried to reach him, but no replies.....
if i wanna go with a c230k though there r some quetions:
-u have a 23k, y didn't u do what u told me?...i mean just tweaking the ecu and stuff
-can i leave the kompressor and then, after a long while, add a turbo along with the compressor?
-isn't it that an enginge swap with a 230k somewhat stupid, coz it's better to buy an w202 230k, or does my current 180 have a bit of an advantage if i installed the 230k on it?
-one last thing, 230k, is cheaper than bolting on a turbokit....right???
again..paul... thnx much for ur interest in helping me...:D
Im not sure i mentioned anything about tweeking the ECU?
yes you could leave the SC in and turbo at the same time....IMO it just makes things complicated for only smaller gains.
If where your from,a 230K is only slightly more expensive,than yes it maybe cheaper to sell and buy...
I couldnt tell you which was cheaper(turbo/engine swap/new car),you will have to pick up the phone book and do the math.
what sort of budget do you have?,
also what does a local mechanic charge an hour?
Originally posted by iced
well paul....
in grosso modo, i know that for a turbo i need:
turbo-bov-intercooler-pipings-oil return (i think)- gauges-manifold-dumpvalve-wastegate,
someway to lower the compression of my engine.
but since i'm still on the planning phase, i wouldn't pay so much attention to it...but once i make ma decision, well it'll be another thing.
and man for the efficiency i was asking: does really a turbocharged 180 outrun a c230k and a c280?
and i just heared from a newcomer (the one with the baby blue car) that he had carlsson enlarging his enginge displaCEMENT FROM 1.8 to 2.5, givig him 190bhp...... what do u think bout this idea?
just looking back on this post...
you will not need to lower your compression unless your after big gains,from what iv seen most of the guys run 5-7psi without trouble.
you will need a rising rate fuel regulator
you will also need ECU/sensor changes...somthing that where im from can end up costing almost as much as the turbo system itself.
1st off.... i just saw ur post # it is 666 : so i guess u r a devilish poster, so no kidding with u here!
ok i'm gonna start my "investigations" once the 2006 starts off....
as for the budget, man now i'm still saving, i dunno what budget will i have, i dunno what to spend, i dunno when to spend, (after all i'm a college student and get my allowance from my parents:o )
so i guess i'l have my projects done, once i have the cash to do it.
as for the echanics, man here it's a completely other story....
-mechanics with ADs, charge astronomical numbers, pretending to be the best in markets.......i dunno ifthey r though, but not paying them a penny
-mechanics with reasonable prices, are in general the ones who didn't get a qualified tuition, they just work by experience. Of course they know how to handle a 91 e320 very wel, or a bimmer 325i (95 down), but i dunno if they can handle new tech. (my 97 202 has relatively new tech)
ok so back to my investigations:
-what do u recommend to ask about in:
-engine swapping
-turbo/sc?
-enlarging displacement
thnx again
666:cool:
so are there workshops that specialise in performance upgrades in your area?
if so then a trip down to show them your intrest would give you a good idea of cost and what can be done...make sure you shop around as every body has a different opinion.
dont go for displacement kits unless you get more than an allowance;)...
so ask about FI and the best way to go about achieving your target,you may find a nose cut off a 230K,which may or maynot be cheaper than a turbo setup,maybe ring some local second hand MB parts suppliers,they may have an idea of cost...
Regards,
Paul
lol it's ok, i'll quit college and work as a male stripper:cool: (kidding.... i think)
aaaaaanyways, back to our subject... man thnx fo ur help, i'll get into it.....
just need to know what do u mean by
find a nose cut off a 230K,which may or maynot be cheaper than a turbo setup ?
Abuimad
01-02-2006, 09:47 AM
u can find a loooot of nose cuts were u live, and yeah it would definetly b cheaper than a turbo set up
abu_imad
by nose cuts, u mean "booz el sayyarat bil kassir?"
if this is the case, do u know ne good salvation shop (ma7all kassir)?
btw what r the updatesfor ur 230?
Abuimad
01-02-2006, 02:07 PM
iced thats exactly what i mean, and u have to keep a look out for those, there are a lot of w202 parts out there but no 230K...so u might wanna leave ur number on hussein or hasan mazzloums list and if they see anything they will call u...also tell ur mechanic on what your planning to do and he will point you the right way
as for my c230 its still messed up and i doubt they did nework on it due to the holliday seasons
abu_imad
man i'm still going to have a lil chat with u, i m going to meet u soon...euhh right?
btw i m trying to reach alhacker.... he told me on 3arabiyem3adali that turbocharging my c180 is easy, i e-mailed him asking for details but no answer, and i know that he's going to put a larger enging so i was thinking of his engine maybe:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: dunno
Abuimad
01-03-2006, 01:07 PM
im leaving back to home on thursday ill b back on the 11th, and alhacker is propably busy, but he really knows what hes talking about, and more importandly he knows the ppl whom got enough skills to change ur engine or add turbo's to it
btw y take alhackers engine its a 230..still no power...if ur gonna change engines aim for something a lil higher ;)
for a good reason man... coz i dt wanna change all of my internals and stuff, i'll end up paying a c43 or a c36's price!
and after a good whild from installing a 2.3k which will deliver some 185bhp, which is not bad, i can get it turbocharged, then, i think it'll outrun the c36
i used a bit of logic their: given that a turboed c180 can outrun a c23k or a c280.... a c23 turbo can outrun a c36, maybe a c43, consideringf the weight advantage (btw, that's what i advice u to do man...got ur car turbocharged...it'll be unique for once! and very powerful:cool: )
Abuimad
01-03-2006, 02:58 PM
nah i want stock power so im getting me a c36, i dont want the hassle of installing performance mod's and maintaining them for a car i am only going to keep for less than a year,
AngelOfDeth
01-17-2006, 12:35 AM
Saying hi to my Lebanese and LAU friends...
I was planning to get a Kompressor on my C280 ...
is it worth the hassles and will give me a good boost, and if it will cost me alot.
hope abuimad and iced to help me on that !!! they at least live in the same country
Abuimad
01-17-2006, 05:13 AM
do u know of any one who does kompressor's for our cars ??, if so i say go for it...
man kompressor in leb isn't really a good choice....
there's no mechanical experts, the max they do is take off a kompressor from a 4cyl 202 and install it on other cars....
so i doubt u'll get something having a 6cyl car...
that's y i was thinkin of turbocharging....
yet after i talked to alhacker, i realized that the best option, cost-effecient choice is instaling an m104 engin 3,2L
Abuimad
01-17-2006, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by iced
man kompressor in leb isn't really a good choice....
there's no mechanical experts, the max they do is take off a kompressor from a 4cyl 202 and install it on other cars....
so i doubt u'll get something having a 6cyl car...
that's y i was thinkin of turbocharging....
yet after i talked to alhacker, i realized that the best option, cost-effecient choice is instaling an m104 engin 3,2L
yeah i agree with that......
pisit
01-28-2006, 05:41 PM
Hi Paul, was wondering if you can help me with this. im using a c220 and thinking of installing a turbocharger as well and had many things to consider. I saw in your web page that you've mentioned that you are using .86 housing and might have to change to .64. Which one do you think it would most suit our car with the less turbo lag? where i live terrible traffic is a usual thing.
thanks for input
Originally posted by pisit
Hi Paul, was wondering if you can help me with this. im using a c220 and thinking of installing a turbocharger as well and had many things to consider. I saw in your web page that you've mentioned that you are using .86 housing and might have to change to .64. Which one do you think it would most suit our car with the less turbo lag? where i live terrible traffic is a usual thing.
thanks for input
hi pisit,
for the best response,esspecially around town...you would be best to go with the .64 turbine housing,im still unsure about my .86,time will tell.
after checking the silvia/skyline forums i noticed they quit often used a similar spec turbo(GT28RS or HKS GT2530/2535) on there 2.5L and 2L engines with mostly the .64...which has made me think maybe .86 will be a pain to drive on my 2.3...
but every application is so different you can do all the calculations and still arrive along way from the right turbo.
jstrat85 runs a HKS GT2535 here on his 220,which flows alittle more than the GT28RS i have,but im guessing he also runs a .64 turbine housing as he mentioned it pulled very well from low in the RPM.
pisit
01-29-2006, 05:44 PM
Thanks alot Paul, i was opting for .64 as well.
one other thing, since mine is a N/A engine and the ECU will experience a closed loop situation. will you face the same problem or kompressor come with a different totally different ECU? if yes, how could i bypass this feature.
Originally posted by pisit
Thanks alot Paul, i was opting for .64 as well.
one other thing, since mine is a N/A engine and the ECU will experience a closed loop situation. will you face the same problem or kompressor come with a different totally different ECU? if yes, how could i bypass this feature.
sorry I cant help you alot with the ECU,the 230K it set to run pressure,so the MAF is different(can read pressure as well as vaccum),the FRP is most likey different and the ECU is mapped to suit.
you would be best to contact "jstrat85" or "Under pressure" for info on there ECU changes.
I'll cross the ECU tuning path when i get there;)
pisit
01-30-2006, 10:11 PM
Thanks Paul,
jstrat85, Under pressure, can u advice on this plzzz?:nerves:
i have an Unichip piggy bag, and wouldnt what to change to a stand alone ECU, low in dough for a standalone ECU system.
Originally posted by pisit
Thanks Paul,
jstrat85, Under pressure, can u advice on this plzzz?:nerves:
i have an Unichip piggy bag, and wouldnt what to change to a stand alone ECU, low in dough for a standalone ECU system.
hey you may need to PM them for attention;)
click here for jstrat85 (http://www.club202.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=191)
or under pressure (http://www.club202.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=127)
hope they can shed some light for you,im fairly sure you wont be going stand alone....
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