Who needs bricks...I DO PISTONS =)

[c280nz]

fukn hell paul,
i dont know what to say to all these mistakes anymore??? its almost turned funny
can you get a new set of sleaves or get the bore coated with that same coating to fill the .001" gap?

edit: read next post
yea just chuck the thing 2gether already, i would but i am a bush mechanic

[Pagz]

Originally posted by Proven Guilty
thats going to be a huge gain trimming that much fat off the rotating assembly!

*cough* 7500rpm redline *cough*

hahaha yer umm...at this rate even 6 is a long shot

[Pagz]

Originally posted by c280nz
fukn hell paul,
i dont know what to say to all these mistakes anymore??? its almost turned funny
can you get a new set of sleaves or get the bore coated with that same coating to fill the .001" gap?

edit: read next post
yea just chuck the thing 2gether already, i would but i am a bush mechanic

I have to laugh about it...the luck and all =).
haha NZ bush mechanics not so many here in auckland ay...overflowing back up north(and obviously a few down south south =))
yip its officially going back together!,pins should be here this week,engine in the next all according to my master plan...0o

[speedybenz]

Hi Paul,

I was just looking through the data you posted and with a 0.004" clearance between the piston and cylinder you may run into quite a bit of piston slap, leading to additional rocking. Maybe there is another anti-friction coating that could reduce the clearance of the piston to the cylinder.

If it where my engine I would take this issue very seriuosly (sp).

A gap of around 0.0025" would be much better for both piston slap, piston rocking and sealing by the rings.

Good Luck!!

Jeff

[Proven Guilty]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Hi Paul,

I was just looking through the data you posted and with a 0.004" clearance between the piston and cylinder you may run into quite a bit of piston slap, leading to additional rocking. Maybe there is another anti-friction coating that could reduce the clearance of the piston to the cylinder.

If it where my engine I would take this issue very seriuosly (sp).

A gap of around 0.0025" would be much better for both piston slap, piston rocking and sealing by the rings.

Good Luck!!

Jeff

Agreed. I was very worried with the idea of the 2nd set of pistons using spacers for the rods, but come to think of it, the piston slap could be just as detrimental. on chevy rebuilds the clearance was ok, because we would go with a cheaper alternative to forged pistons called hyper-tectic (sp) for use in low budget nitrous small blocks. the gap was ok because the pistons would expand so much once the block warmed up, so you would hear piston slap until operating tempurature and everything was quiet.

offtopic:

Jeff, do you still have that C43 block and rebuild needed trans available?

[Pagz]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Hi Paul,

I was just looking through the data you posted and with a 0.004" clearance between the piston and cylinder you may run into quite a bit of piston slap, leading to additional rocking. Maybe there is another anti-friction coating that could reduce the clearance of the piston to the cylinder.

If it where my engine I would take this issue very seriuosly (sp).

A gap of around 0.0025" would be much better for both piston slap, piston rocking and sealing by the rings.

Good Luck!!

Jeff

Thanks for the concern Jeff/Proven guilty
....this is definalty a concern to say the least....JE directly qouted .003 - .0035 minimum!...im still not happy with .004...however this is my fault(or more so the engine builders)...so i will be wearing the bill next time.

I was told by the JE piston suppliers that the .004 would be fine...
but imo every application is different,it maybe a total abortion.

Its been a very expensive exercise already...and,iv learnt alot!
If things dont run right i wont heistate to pull those pistons out and try again...

Paul

[Pagz]

I just called one of the local race engine builders who use JE pistons...he compared the bore size with a turbo nissan and the result was .004..i then told him i have FSR pistons and he said they need more clearcane than the usual design...so .004 is fine!

PLEASE LET IT BE FINE

[speedybenz]

Paul,

Have you been able to reduce the piston to cylinder head clearance to around 0.030". And please try to get a multi-layer steel head gasket.

Is there anyone in NZ who can Nikasil your engine block. If so you can reset the piston clearance.

What about some thermal coatings on the valves, intake ports, piston top and combustion chamber?

Jeff

[Pagz]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Paul,

Have you been able to reduce the piston to cylinder head clearance to around 0.030". And please try to get a multi-layer steel head gasket.

Is there anyone in NZ who can Nikasil your engine block. If so you can reset the piston clearance.

What about some thermal coatings on the valves, intake ports, piston top and combustion chamber?

Jeff

We have not altered the piston-head clearances.
have not gotten a multi layer head gasket.

Nikasil?...similar to sleeving the bore?,or a coating?

The pistons tops have thermal coatings.
coatings on the combustion chamber roof,intake/exhaust ports and valves were left alone as i didnt think the extra costs were absolutely nessesary.

[germanbloodd]

when you finish with your battle on gettin the right piston/sleeve clearence can we order pistons form je for our m104? i would love a set of "corrected" pistons if they ever get to sending you the right set, good luck man

[Pagz]

If you would like to order pistons for your 104 you will need to send a sample...if the 104 is a piston locating rod setup than make sure you clearly state this...as it will need to be made from a suitable forging,if they have a suitable one!.
If your are planning to run FI setup,i would assume you will not keep the same C/R so you will need to give them all the dimensions they need to give you the compression ratio you desire for that setup...

Paul

[jnolte]

Nikasil is a trademarked electrodeposited oleophilic nickel matrix silicon carbide coating for engine components, mainly piston engine cylinder liners. It was introduced by Mahle 1967, initially developed to allow rotary engine pistons to work directly against the aluminum housing. This coating allowed aluminium cylinders and pistons to work directly against each other with low wear and friction. Unlike other methods, including cast iron cylinder liners, Nikasil allowed very large cylinder bores with tight tolerances and thus allowed existing engine designs to be expanded easily, the aluminium cylinders also gave a much better heat conductivity than cast iron liners which is an important factor for a high output engine.

Porsche started using this on the 1970 917 race car, and later on the 1973 911 RS. Porsche also used it on production cars, but for a short time switched to Alusil due to cost savings for their base 911. Nikasil cylinders were always used for the 911 turbo and RS models. Nikasil coated aluminum cylinders allowed Porsche to build air-cooled engines that had the highest specific output of any engine of their time. Nikasil is still used in today's 911s with great success.

Nikasil was very popular in the 1990s. It was used by companies such as BMW, Ferrari,Honda and Jaguar Cars in their new engine families. However, the sulfur found in much of the world's low quality gasoline caused the Nikasil cylinders used by BMW to break down over time, causing costly engine failures. Eventually, the product was abandoned after BMW was forced to replace a number of M60 V8 engines in the USA and the UK. Nikasil or similar coatings under other trademarks are still widely used in racing engines where low quality gasoline isn't a problem, this include F1, ChampCar and NASCAR engines.

SOURCE: WIKIPEDIA

[trymonlam]

paul,
what are u going to do with the pistons? if you have no use with them and would be willing to give them away, put me down on your list. they probably make very cool soap dish/ashtray.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by jnolte
Nikasil is a trademarked electrodeposited oleophilic nickel matrix silicon carbide coating for engine components, mainly piston engine cylinder liners. It was introduced by Mahle 1967, initially developed to allow rotary engine pistons to work directly against the aluminum housing. This coating allowed aluminium cylinders and pistons to work directly against each other with low wear and friction. Unlike other methods, including cast iron cylinder liners, Nikasil allowed very large cylinder bores with tight tolerances and thus allowed existing engine designs to be expanded easily, the aluminium cylinders also gave a much better heat conductivity than cast iron liners which is an important factor for a high output engine.

Porsche started using this on the 1970 917 race car, and later on the 1973 911 RS. Porsche also used it on production cars, but for a short time switched to Alusil due to cost savings for their base 911. Nikasil cylinders were always used for the 911 turbo and RS models. Nikasil coated aluminum cylinders allowed Porsche to build air-cooled engines that had the highest specific output of any engine of their time. Nikasil is still used in today's 911s with great success.

Nikasil was very popular in the 1990s. It was used by companies such as BMW, Ferrari,Honda and Jaguar Cars in their new engine families. However, the sulfur found in much of the world's low quality gasoline caused the Nikasil cylinders used by BMW to break down over time, causing costly engine failures. Eventually, the product was abandoned after BMW was forced to replace a number of M60 V8 engines in the USA and the UK. Nikasil or similar coatings under other trademarks are still widely used in racing engines where low quality gasoline isn't a problem, this include F1, ChampCar and NASCAR engines.

SOURCE: WIKIPEDIA

Thanks man,that Wikipedia site is a very helpful tool!!!

[Pagz]

Originally posted by trymonlam
paul,
what are u going to do with the pistons? if you have no use with them and would be willing to give them away, put me down on your list. they probably make very cool soap dish/ashtray.

hahaha i have thought about it and still am thinking about it...i may use them to build a small momento for the trouble iv been through in the last year!...however your on the list if i do give them away

[RemoLexi]

ive got a question ... .004 clearence is unusual to me .. if I was to do forged pistons id aim for .002 since well, my last project with a .001 starting clearence seized. (it wasnt my idea to start with such a low clearence)

but okay so let the clearnce be .004, does that mean that the maximum wear can exceed .007 without having to rebore/hone?

im assuming your maximum wear limit would be .009 then right ? and when you had it bored, how much did you have it bored to the max. of like .060 for thin-wall blocks or did you leave some room in there incase you needed a rebore in the future?

PS, intrested in the unused pistons you have there ... wanna talk about those ?? LoL

[Pagz]

Originally posted by RemoLexi
ive got a question ... .004 clearence is unusual to me .. if I was to do forged pistons id aim for .002 since well, my last project with a .001 starting clearence seized. (it wasnt my idea to start with such a low clearence)

but okay so let the clearnce be .004, does that mean that the maximum wear can exceed .007 without having to rebore/hone?

im assuming your maximum wear limit would be .009 then right ? and when you had it bored, how much did you have it bored to the max. of like .060 for thin-wall blocks or did you leave some room in there incase you needed a rebore in the future?

PS, intrested in the unused pistons you have there ... wanna talk about those ?? LoL

I believe theres a few factors to consider before you can gauge what clearance you will need...
clearance is affected by forging material used,piston diameter,engine operating conditions.

The engine was bored .02 to accomodate the first piston set,what we didnt know was the last set was slightly smaller because it doesnt have the green hard coating...hence why i have a large clearance...there is still room for bore enlargening.

I have no idea what the were limit is,no doubt we will find it,thats hope it doesnt happen to soon

heheh yeh,there not any good to you,unless you open your engine and find its a crank located rod setup

[RemoLexi]

so the pistons are just too small. thats sucks.

"heheh yeh,there not any good to you,unless you open your engine and find its a crank located rod setup"

I dont think I catch what your saying ...

[Pagz]

The Rods in our M111 engines(well mine anyway) are located by the piston,which means the small end of the rod fits snug into the centre of the piston,this keeps the rod central.

Most engines use crank located rods,which means the crank holds the rod central and is free inside the piston.

if you were to install either of my two sets of unused pistons,you would find the rod would shift off centre under operation and that doesnt help engine life

[trymonlam]

you can make something cool with all these unused pistons. check out this guy's coffee table
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2007/0...coffee-tables/

[RemoLexi]

Hmm ... so anyway to have the rods so they dont have play ?? washer ?!?! stupid idea .. but its a start.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by RemoLexi
Hmm ... so anyway to have the rods so they dont have play ?? washer ?!?! stupid idea .. but its a start.

Yep at one stage that was the plan,i had the pistons in at the engineers...they were to machine the inner sides of the wrist pin bose's...i also purchased a 1M bar of T3 6061 alloy to have the washers cut from....If i remember correctly the engineers got alittle shakey on the fact these where fully finished pistons with all the coatings...which ment one mistake and it was all over...so i questioned the piston suppliers and they decided maybe it wasnt such a good idea so they made the third set...

i think spacers would work,but how well and for how long im not sure.

[Pagz]

Originally posted by trymonlam
you can make something cool with all these unused pistons. check out this guy's coffee table
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2007/0...coffee-tables/

Pretty damn cool!