Custom Big Bore Throttle Body.

[J Irwan]

Jeff, or anyone else.


Do you guys know, where I can have a custom big-bore throttle body..

I am thinking of having mine enlarged..?

Also for anyone who is running underdrive pulley, what is the disadvantage of having these on electronic gadget..??

I am thinking about the underdrive pulley, but I am concerned with the possibility of it affects my sound system (as the sound system is a must on my car)


Regardz,

[speedybenz]

Junaidi,

You might see if a C43 MAS and throttle body will fit on your car, or if they are larger. I can measure the inner diameter of the MAS for you.

If you modify your own throttle body, it will be easy to have it bored out larger but getting the throttle plate made up is difficult and then fitting it to the throttle shaft will be hard but doable.

If I were you I would look at getting you cam sprockets slotted or modified so you can adjust the cam timing. Doing this can sometimes gain 5 to 10 percent Hp.

Also Installing an electric water pump is good for a quick 10hp and may reduce the water temp also.

And if you really want to make a big change go for new cams. Don't get the Renntech stuff, it over priced and not very good, IMHO. Get some cams from Comp cams or Webcam. I can help with the details.

Jeff

[Renn 208]

Originally posted by J Irwan


I am thinking about the underdrive pulley, but I am concerned with the possibility of it affects my sound system (as the sound system is a must on my car)

Yeah I wouldn't underdrive the alternator pulley if the system's important to you...however, you can underdrive the rest with impunity!

[CKlasse]

BTW... I've talked to Webcam late last year after seeing their ads on one of the performance magazine. They are willing to cut their price pretty deep if you are willing to let your car be a prototype. They do require newer high performance car though. Mine was out of the picture

Newer C230K, 280 or AMG owners should call them.

[1SIKBNZ]

hmmm wonder if they would take a 99 280?

[J Irwan]

Jeff,

can you email me the pic of C43 throttle body..??

I want to see if all the port are on the same place as C36..

I will measure my throttle body Inside Diameter (I.D)


Also can anyone tell me if CLK55 (w208) and E55 (w210) has the same diameter TB as C43..??


Regardz,

[Denlasoul]

Wouldnt the TB of the C43/E430/E55/CLK430/CLK55/ML430/ML55 be the same? Basically the M113 engine cars unless AMG did something to enhance the TB. I know they did the intake manifold and run hotter cams.

[speedybenz]

Junaidi,

I will get you a pic this weekend. The E55 and such may have a larger Throttle Body as the displacement is 1200cc more. So I would think the TB is bigger.

We need to measure one up.

Jeff

[Renn 208]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Junaidi,

I will get you a pic this weekend. The E55 and such may have a larger Throttle Body as the displacement is 1200cc more. So I would think the TB is bigger.

We need to measure one up.

Jeff

now that just begs the question...is there a part number for a CL65 throttle body and would it be huge? or...do the big V12s have a different design altogether?

[Three Point 6]

J Irwin,

On the subject of naturally aspirated power increase for the C36, do you or anybody know the engine specs of the DTM 3.6 motors. IE; cams, flow-rates, I & E manifolding, injector sizes. It would be great to know what architecture was used on those engines as a guide for enhancement. I heard the DTM 3.6 had 400hp natural. I am all over modding the motor on my car also if a teardown is needed in a couple years when it is paid off & in the 125k mile range.

I believe 315 hp can be had w/header from Bekkers, Powerchips ECU & custom made K&N set-up?

[714guy]

IF the 55 motor TB fits on the c36, then you could also get the Maybach one too. That kleemman c55 done by benzmac has a maybach throttle body on it, but he had to do some wiring to reverse the way it opened. on something like that.

[CKlasse]

Not to ruin the moddin spirit...

but instead of increasing CFM and then you have to mess around with fuel mapping etc... Why not do the simplest thing of all? Increase your compression ratio from 10.2:1 to 12:1. You can simply custom order rods for less than a grand and will much better HP gain/dollar.

Another $200-500 at local machine shop to do your head, and you'll have one mean C36!

[CKlasse]

... BTW... Bigger TB doesnt mean better torque/hp all the time. You will loose some hp & torque at lower RPM due to velocity decrease. Unless you are talking about doing your head and exhaust side. For the money, I would go for longer rods - increasing the compression by longer stroke!

[speedybenz]

Ok, so you have an AMG C36 engine. First you tear it down and measure the deck ht. and piston to valve clearance, cam timing, etc.

Once apart you measure the crankshaft bearing journals. If the rod journals are bigger than a std. honda then you grind them to the smaller size and gain some stroke. The smaller bearing reduces the bearing speed and friction-more Hp.

2nd you get the wt. of all the stock piston, piston pin, rods and then go looking for something better and lighter. Same goes for the valves. Maybe you remove the stock valve guides and use new valve guides which allow valves with a smaller diameter stem to reduce wt.

3rd, you get the crank lightened and balanced. You also get it coated to shed oil better. less drag-more Hp.

4th, you get the head done. You may end up making the intake ports smaller, bgut with a better shape and since the valve stem is smaller you get more flow.

New cams with duration about the same as stock but with faster opening ramps. You have valve that weigh less so you can open them up faster to get more air in the motor.

Set your deck ht to .030" to take advantage of your new rods and batter pistons. Piston have total seal upper rings for near zero leakdown.

Custom header.

Slap it all together, set the cam timing to 105 LC on the intake and 110 Lc on the exhaust.

Now you have a 400hp motor.

Jeff

[CKlasse]

What kind of coating do you use for the crank? I always thought you can have a hotrodder to machine a better oil groove on the bearings themselves.

Although I am not by any mean an expert engine builder (In fact, I have only done two in my life), at the shop I found out that many german block decks are warped.

From my own experience with the 2.2L of the C Class, I found all cylinders are tappered (Does it mean it has very good rings? minal leakage?), and the piston skirt are longer than usual. Also, the crankshaft ring are very thin compare to other german bottom ends. I wish Merc would use 'craddle' as in Mitsubishi 3.0L.

I dont have any experience to relobe the cam, but I am going to be using lighter forged valves and dual t springs instead. And at 84000 miles, the cam clearance and crank journal clearance are amazingly still within spec.

Here is a trick that I learnt recently, thread the valve guide (groovy baby!), then machine the surface back to smooth. These grooves will retain oil much better.

Furthermore, I have seen JE forged pistons as thin as 1/2" below the oil ring. I am not sure how much vibration these thin pistons would cause. JE also provides piston rings per your specs. I have had unpleasant experience with JE customer service in the past, but I think I am going to go for them once again.

I am learning so much for the past couple months. I cannot wait til I have the fund to do the 2.2L from top to bottom. At this point, I am almost convinced that I can achieve 220hp without turbo.

[nokia8860]

Originally posted by CKlasse
At this point, I am almost convinced that I can achieve 220hp without turbo.

ALL MOTOR BABY!!!!









sorry that was like the only thing I could add on this thread

[speedybenz]

CKlasse,

I think you can get 220hp to the wheels without a turbo, but you will have to increase the rpm limit to say 7500 rpm. But with good rods and pistons that would not be a problem.

Tapered cylinder bores are a bad thing. They should be round and straight. The pistons are tapered because they grow at different rates due to the amount of material at the top and bottom ofthe piston. But bores have to be straight and round.

You should look at Mahle pistons, they are the new Cosworth piston.

Also your valve guide idea is one I would pass on. The valves have to have good solid support to function well.

Also the Honda rod bearing size is worth a look as all the good bearing manufactures are making bearings in this size range and you can then offset grind your crank to pick up stroke and displacement.

Jeff

[Three Point 6]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Ok, so you have an AMG C36 engine. First you tear it down and measure the deck ht. and piston to valve clearance, cam timing, etc.

Once apart you measure the crankshaft bearing journals. If the rod journals are bigger than a std. honda then you grind them to the smaller size and gain some stroke. The smaller bearing reduces the bearing speed and friction-more Hp.

2nd you get the wt. of all the stock piston, piston pin, rods and then go looking for something better and lighter. Same goes for the valves. Maybe you remove the stock valve guides and use new valve guides which allow valves with a smaller diameter stem to reduce wt.

3rd, you get the crank lightened and balanced. You also get it coated to shed oil better. less drag-more Hp.

4th, you get the head done. You may end up making the intake ports smaller, bgut with a better shape and since the valve stem is smaller you get more flow.

New cams with duration about the same as stock but with faster opening ramps. You have valve that weigh less so you can open them up faster to get more air in the motor.

Set your deck ht to .030" to take advantage of your new rods and batter pistons. Piston have total seal upper rings for near zero leakdown.

Custom header.

Slap it all together, set the cam timing to 105 LC on the intake and 110 Lc on the exhaust.

Now you have a 400hp motor.

Jeff

All sounds good, but I forgot that I would like this thing to be a street driver & at 12:1 compress ratio I would be worried about detonation. Considerations for cylinder swirl/design & piston top shape, engine cooling in relation to removal of cyl head heat, and high temp coatings on pistons, chambers would help combat all this and also - ECU/Dyno tune to tie it all together. Sounds great Jeff, how much do you think?? Renntech pricing in the end still even if I did it with local shops & DYI attitude? Since MB's are such an un-popular engine mod, it would be a shot in the dark edge cutter! I cant imagine how it would sound under throttle!!! Call me ludicriss but it might be more cost effective to slap a Z06 Vette motor or Buick G/N turbo driveline in there with stand alone ECU mgmt & cheaper/moddable overdrive transmission choices.

As a GM guy that has built a few V-8's I understand all your theory but I am not keen yet to the Honda rod bearing diameter. I am assuming that Hondas bearing size is 'very ideal' at this point through drag-ricer testing and makes a great proven start for strength/friction/technology.
The C36 crank is from the S350 Diesel & it is forged and already cut down a bit on the main Journels I believe??
C280 motors could go through the same rebuild assuming the same dual stage intake manifolding could be had & S350 cranks??
This could be fun w/ 1.1hp per cubic inch! ($$$money, money, money!)

Who did all the motors for MB when C36 was in the DTM, AMG or in house co-operation with AMG. I guess I mean, where can I get the specs for the actual race engine? Call AMG & speak a little German huh?

[CKlasse]

sigh... I wish I could learn and work with you all in person.

BTW, when I mentioned tappered cylinder, I meant to ask what cause them. Ultra high tensioned piston rings? obviously, I will need to machine my block due to this issue.

[speedybenz]

Junaidi,

I measured up my old C280 MAS and my C43 MAS. The C280 is 72mm in largest diameter but is tapered starting at 68.5mm.

The C43 MAS is straight through at 77mm. So a substanatial increase in flow area. Also I think the C43 MAS can be honed out to at least 80mm without undue difficulty.

CKlasse,

The taper is most likely caused by poor lubrication at the top of the bore and if your bores are cast iron it makes the problem worse. But yes the problem is the oil rings and 1st and 2nd ring scrape all the oil away from the top of the bore and so it recieves more wear as the piston comes up to a stop and then moves down the bore.

[J Irwan]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Junaidi,

I measured up my old C280 MAS and my C43 MAS. The C280 is 72mm in largest diameter but is tapered starting at 68.5mm.

The C43 MAS is straight through at 77mm. So a substanatial increase in flow area. Also I think the C43 MAS can be honed out to at least 80mm without undue difficulty.

CKlasse,

The taper is most likely caused by poor lubrication at the top of the bore and if your bores are cast iron it makes the problem worse. But yes the problem is the oil rings and 1st and 2nd ring scrape all the oil away from the top of the bore and so it recieves more wear as the piston comes up to a stop and then moves down the bore.

Jeff,
what about the connector from C280 vs C43, are they plug n play (interchangeable..?)


Regardz,

[speedybenz]

Yes the C43 and C280 connector are the same. Both 5-pin.

I put the C43 MAS on my C280 and it helped out quite a bit. I had to move the location closer to the engine but it was just a matter of putting it on the other side of the flex rubber tubing instead of connecting to the airbox.

This weekend I am going to measure the negative pressure in the intake system using a Manometer. That way I will be able to tell what items give the largest obstruction to flow.

Also if you have not removed your MAS screens, do so as these cause a large flow reduction. Removing them has no other adverse affects.

Jeff

[J Irwan]

Jeff,

any pic of your MAS (c43 mass)

here is mine..(my old ones)

[img]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwD*AmgUoL2fyi40JhwHab*FRtaLHwKoxiDM2Hp87PSk9jRPd ruueVJyhRnDe8ncCXENY2BYA9iBmYqcC3DJOB46h2YzJF5Sqxp spoXCVE8/DSC02269.JPG[/img]


the ID is 71mm straight through


Regardz,

[Denlasoul]

Speedy:

In the picture JIrwin just posted, is that the wire mesh you are talking about removing?

DLS

[speedybenz]

DLS,

Yes both the wire screen and the plastic screen. They just are not needed. The MAS fails due to other causes faster than it does due to wear particles, which should be caught by the air filters anyhow.

Jeff