CKlasse C220 Engine Rebuild

[speedybenz]

CKlasse,

I have built lots of AMA Supersport and Superbike motors. My last motor was a 600cc Yamaha using stock parts that made 118 Hp on the Dyno to the rear wheel. Thats almost 200 Hp per liter.

All the things I do to a motorcycle engine apply to any engine. They all are air pumps which need to get air in and move air out.

And I have built about 30 engines. Cars are much easier as there is more potential output because they are no where as fine tuned as the current Japanese 600-1000cc engines are.

If you wanted to go to Carrillo rods and Forged pistons then you could raise the rpm's a bunch, say to 8000 rpm depending on the current stroke. Plus if the rod journals are large then you can offset grind them smaller to fit Honda sized rod bearings and reduce friction and pick up displacement.

If the bores are Nikasil plated alum. then the block can go to Millenium and they will bore it and replate it, provided there is enough room between cylinders. But even on the motorcycle stuff we can usually get 3mm extra piston diameter.

Webcam will grind me any size cam I want and provide valve springs.

If displacement went up to 2500cc then I could see that motor making a very reliable 225-250 Hp at the rear wheel.

Jeff



Jeff

[CKlasse]

Two issues.. I assume the places you mentioned are in or around Sacramento area. So, timing and travel is something I have to arrange. Last but not least.. how about an estimated cost for all these goodies plus your time?

Btw, I just put the stock springs back on. Perhaps this time I ll order them from Coleman racing per your original setup.

As far as the tubular lower arm control, the shop wanted at least $1000 to design, test, and produce. If I could get 10 set orders, they are willing to charge $200 per set. I think the price is abit steep, hence, I am going to hook up with few SCCA guys in Denver, and hopefully they would be interested in helping me with the design/fabrication.

Now.. off with my lady to a fancy dinner to justify all the upcoming spendings!

[speedybenz]

Well I am pretty happy with the camber setting on my car, so the lower arm is not critical for me.

However, I still want to do your cylinder head. I don't charge much, mostly just for the supplies I use.

If thats good then you can just ship the head to me.

But better yet let me know what you want to do and how much is your budget. To do your cylinder head and cams should be around $1000. Most of the cost is for the cams and valve seat work and head milling.

Jeff

[CKlasse]

I am taking 3 week vacation this summer, perhaps that would be the time. I will confirm the date. Email me your contact # dacorner96@aol.com

[CKlasse]

Did I miss your email?

I would like to know more details. Please do post what would you do to the 2.2 engine. -- I thought you would need more than just the heads.

[speedybenz]

CKlasse,

Because you live in Colorado it would be hard for me to do the whole engine so I would suggest finding a guy in Colorado to do some of the basic stuff. Like pulling the motor and measuring up piston to deck hts. and the crank journal diameters. Rod lenghts and I need to see the pistons and rings.

But 90% of the go in the motor is in the head. Although if bigger pistons can be installed then the block would have to have the cylinders bored out and replated. Also if the piston to head clearence is too loose then the top of the block would need to be machined to correct that.

I would highly recommend some Carillo or Crower rods and with those and some JE pistons you could safely spin the motor to 8000 rpm.

So then you will need a simple chip that alters the rpm limit to 8000 rpm and then a piggyback ECU controller can be used to dial in the Air/Fuel and Ignition timing.

Again I fully except to see 220 -250 Hp at the rear wheels.

THe head work would include measuring the intake port volumes and shapes and the same for the exhaust ports.

The cams need to be measured and reground.

The valve seats need to be narrowed and the 45 degree seat cleaned up.

More but go to go.

Jeff

[CKlasse]

I have had bad experience with JE engine, perhaps I am going with crower this time. I am trying to convince this guy to help me out.. He used to build engines for SCCA in Denver. I just wish I have the knowledge and experience to do this by myself.

I could ship the upper block to you.. Again, summer is the time to do this.. so I have quite some time to plan things out.

So beside the upper engine, cylinders, rods, cam and pistons, there is no need to touch the crankshaft, bigger fuel injectors, etc ?

I know a place to reprogram the EPROM.. I am researching the piggyback for AFR/ignition timing.

[speedybenz]

You had bad luck with JE pistons? How so? Too much cylinder wall clearance.

Crower makes good rods along with Carillo.

I need to know if the block has iron liners or are they plated with Nikasil.

The piggyback ECU unit I like best are Unichip or Perfect Power.

The cams will have to be reground and I would raise compression to around 11:1 maybe 11.5:1. If done right the motor will run fine on 91 octane pump gas. Also need adjustable cam sprockets.

Yes I would want the crank to see if it can be lightened and rebalanced as I expect the new pistons and rods will be much lighter. But being an inline 4 cylinder the crank work is simple.

Jeff

[CKlasse]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Too much cylinder wall clearance.

so you have similar experience with JE pistons.. Actually, back in 1995, I obtained some of their products for a 95 Turbo'ed Civic. The pistons were a bit 'off'

Please understand that I am by far not an expert..but to run a 11.5:1 compression on 91 octane will surely cause pre-detonation, wont it? I have always assumed you need a higher octane, even so with fuel addictive for controlled ignition (But again I live at the Mile High City - that helps the Octane).

I wish I had time to get this project started.. Currently, I work from 4 am - 2pm.. then off to ASE certification program from 2:30 'til 9 at night.

I am considering to purchase new cyclinder heads and rings along with few other things, then ship them to you..to get things started. I will need new rockers and couple of the valve springs also.. are there any after market ones? Will JE custom build 12 set of pistons?

Finally, should I consider cyclinder sleeves if I am to bore out the cylinder?

EDIT :So many questions and more to come.. hope you dont mind.

[speedybenz]

While I do not think JE pistons are the best out there they are not bad and if the cylinder bores are straight and they don't set the piston to bore clearance too large.

11:1 compression is very doable on pump gas provided the combustion chambers are void of sharp edges and the pistons are cleaned up.

The method to get rid of detonation is to set the piston to cylinder head clearance very tight so that when the piston nears TDC the turbulance in the chamber get very strong and this provides quicker and more complete burning of the A/F mixture.

To do the above you need strong rods like Carillo to limit rod elongation.

If the block is Nikasiled then we just need to look at the amount of material between the bores and decide what overbore will still leave enough metal so that the cylinders stay round.

Jeff

[CKlasse]

Speedybenz,

I learnt few things over the week. I believe, I know exactly what I wanted to do. I will email you over the weekend.. meanwhile I am trying to figure out the fuel system upgrade. New pump, new injectors (60lbs??) are most likely..however, I have no ideas how to deal with the fuel control module.

Thanks

PS..no I believe Merc's engine is not coated.

[JasonH]

I have been using the Perfect Power SMT5i piggy-back ECU for over six months now & have been very pleased.

[CKlasse]

Originally posted by JasonH
I have been using the Perfect Power SMT5i piggy-back ECU for over six months now & have been very pleased.

JasonH,

Just out of curiousity, is there a link where I could see what's under your hood? How much PSI do you run? what kind of compression, displacement, etc do you have? And finally, perhaps a lil info on your engine management. Thanks in advance

[CKlasse]

Speedybenz,

What happend to your merc? Hope everything is ok. Let us know.

Just few updates on things I have obtained or in process to do so. If you could come up with better price, please do let me know. Keep in mind that the goal is to create a smooth 2.5L with 15-20psi forced induction street car.

I put (?) on item that I would need help in researching/info on:

Turbocharger
Garrett T3/4 turbos A/R 48:48 - $850
Custom flange, aluminum intercoolers, wastegate actuator (?)
The cost of exhaust manifold vabrication is almost the cost of the turbo. This part is pretty straight forward.

Engine

--Crower custom 4340 steel billet rods - $170 each
I am unable to get quote from Carillo just yet.

--Crower Stage II Custom Cam (lobes and reground works) - $500
I doubt I need to weld lobes onto the stocky. You are welcome to reground the stock cam if you think yours is more cost effective. Let me know.

--MB OEM Cylinder heads & rings (?)
I have no clues on how are you going to redrill the head for the longer rods as I have never experienced this.

--JE Pistons and Valves (?)
JE will do custom pistons according to our specs, but you mentioned that you want to handle these two areas also.

--Cylinders
I am having 2nd thoughts about boring the cylinders. I believe I ll leave that part alone.

--Crankshaft
All yours!!

Anything else? as far as powertrain?

Fuel System

--RC Engineering can provide a set for $400. More details to come as I am to decide whether to have RC modding the OEM or simply buy theirs.

--New OEM Regulator

--Fuel Pump.. I believe mine is at 48psi, should I look for 60psi at least (?)


So far, I haven't look much into the ECM or FCM stuffs, I am more worried by the engine. Anyhow, your estimated budget of give take $1000 for the engine work is VERY ACCEPTABLE. I think the transmission alone will cost me almost twice as much.

I could secure a bay toward the end of next month, and getting started on this. Then it's a matter of how soon do you wanna do this. Finally, I apologize if I sound inexperience.. its because I AM!

I welcome any feedbacks/ideas from anyone

[JasonH]

Hi CKlasse,

I should have a little website with pics & info up this weekend at the following:

www.TurboBenz.com

(I have it built, I'm just having firewall/port issues between my system and that of my host.)

For detailed info on my engine management system & all it can do go to:

http://www.perfectpower.com/Products/smt6.asp

a bit of light reading

Jason

[CKlasse]

Jason,

Do you have picture of the intercooler? I am trying to figure out where to mount mine.

[JasonH]

I have mine mounted in the lower center of the front bumper (behind & underneath the license plate). You can sort of see it in a few of the photos at:

www.TurboBenz.com

Jason

[speedybenz]

Jason,

What is the trap speed on your 14.3 sec 1/4 mile drag runs?

Jeff

[JasonH]

Hi Jeff,

Here are all the stats recorded from that particular timeslip:

R/T - .703
60' - .000 (This one was out that night)
330 - 6.132
1/8 - 9.324
MPH - 76.66
1000 - 12.057
1/4 - 14.378
MPH - 97.62

Drag season starts again at the end of March (weather permitting of course)

Think I may do some more modding & see what happens

Jason

[speedybenz]

Jason,

Make sure to get that 50wt oil out and replace it with either 0-30wt or 5-30wt Mobil 1. There is 5Hp right there.

And fill just past the bottom of the low oil mark.

Denso Iridium plugs.

45psi in the front tires

Jeff

[JasonH]

Hi Jeff,

Actually, I am running 15-50W Redline (it does get cold up here).

I have been running the cooler plugs from the 230 Kompressors, although are the Denso's even colder? Hmmm... may be worth an experiment if so.

Duh... I never thought to the high-inflation idea. The simple things, I swear

I am going to be veeerrry interested to see how CKlasse's runs. Sounds like you two are up to something very cool.

Jason

[speedybenz]

Jason,

No,no, no Redline in the motor.

15-50wt is some thick stuff and not really a good winter oil.

I tell ya our old race team ran all sorts of oil both long term and during dyno testing.

We never found an oil that protected better or produced more power than the Mobil 1, 5w-30wt.

So stop paying $8 a quart and pick up 5-10 hp with the Mobil 1.

Another oil which was the equal was Cheveron 0-30wt, Delo 400 syntec. It is a Deisel oil with good any foam properties and extra friction additives to hold up under the high Deisel comprssion ratios.

Also use Oil Extreme Concentrate. It added 8Hp to my C280 motor , on the Dyno and in our race motors it prolongs the condition of the rings and valve springs which allowed longer tear down intervrals.

Jeff

[JasonH]

Jeff,

You are talking the Mobile 1 full synthetic right? Hmmm... I was running that prior to this. Perhaps I'll go back given your information.

Thanks,
Jason

[speedybenz]

Jason,

Thats right the full syn. Mobil 1. Because the viscosity is thinner it pumps easier so you end up with more oil volume through the critical crankshaft main and rod main bearings. This allows for contaminates to be flushed out faster and keeps the oil temps lower due to the greater oil volume.

Also try the Oil Extreme is really does work. And none of the other oil additives worked at all in our race motors or on the dyno. Slick 50, Prolong, VP, Redline, etc. You name it we tried it and the above stated stuff was the only snake oil worh using.

Jeff


Jeff

[CKlasse]

Just a few updates.

RC engineering is able to upgrade the injectors (upto 300cc ea) and fuel pump. In short, I don't have to mess much with AFR Management.

Crower rods & JE pistons are in order. Turbo is in the garage.

Furthermore, there is a performance company, who does cam/crank for imports (Honda mostly), interested in sponsor the project. Hopefully, I know something in couple weeks.

Meanwhile, the car is in the bodyshop for a few 'cosmestic' details