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Thread: Im going to TURBO my W202!!

  1. #1
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    Im going to TURBO my W202!!

    So after a lot of debate on what to do to my car (An engine swap with a V8 or do a Turbo set up), I decided on the Turbo.. as it will be much easier to do. The V8 swap would involve new harness's, a new EIS, new keys, New control units, New Trans.. the list goes on and on.. just waaaay more then I want to tackle in my C230 Kompressor. If my car was already a V8 I'd just drop in a 55 motor and call it a day.
    There is no way to really boost my supercharger more with the set up I'm running, so I'd have to go with a custom supercharger.. and I have thought about this as well.. but to be honest.. the Turbo just seems so much easier to tune later on.. easier to crank up the boost.

    So the Thread has started!
    Chime in 23K.. I know you have some questions and comments for me!


    Im about to order my Turbo, hopefully this week,
    I'm going with a Garrett GT3582R.. yes it's large!.. but it will give me the power I'm after later on when I get more custom bits done. My goal is 450-550HP when all is said and done. so it will hopefully be a monster!

    **All my stock parts will be up for sale (Supercharger and all affiliated parts, also my full stock exhaust will be for sale, and finally my Kleemann K23 kit, which is good for 1999 and 2000 C230Kompressors, and it should be compatible with 1999 SLK230Komprssors as well, as I have the 2 different alternator pulleys for either car.**
    Hit me up if you are interested in any parts.
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  2. #2
    Good luck with the set up

  3. #3
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    ...Its been going on for some time behind the scenes...but now you've posted it there's definitely no going back^^

    Im still concerned about the GT3582,when i did the maths years back that size dipped heavily into the surge zone,but weather or not you actually get it will be based on the tune,back pressure,header ID,turbine wheel and housing...not to mention the characteristics of the auto tranny....
    It may pay to look into an anti-surge housing(decreases responce slightly),however it will be a gamble as if you didnt actually have surge than it does you no good.

    Iv been round in circles a lot with mine,it would have been much cheaper to have got it right the first time lol,im in the middle of redoing the cooling hoses and iv just bought a new GT2860 core because i couldnt get my compressor wheel replaced without huge expense,almost cost as much as a new turbo!.

    Are there plans for the header?(top or bottom mount and what material),also what size turbine housing are you planning to run with the 3582?

    Cheers bro,
    Paul
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
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    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by 23K
    ...Its been going on for some time behind the scenes...but now you've posted it there's definitely no going back^^

    Im still concerned about the GT3582,when i did the maths years back that size dipped heavily into the surge zone,but weather or not you actually get it will be based on the tune,back pressure,header ID,turbine wheel and housing...not to mention the characteristics of the auto tranny....
    It may pay to look into an anti-surge housing(decreases responce slightly),however it will be a gamble as if you didnt actually have surge than it does you no good.

    Iv been round in circles a lot with mine,it would have been much cheaper to have got it right the first time lol,im in the middle of redoing the cooling hoses and iv just bought a new GT2860 core because i couldnt get my compressor wheel replaced without huge expense,almost cost as much as a new turbo!.

    Are there plans for the header?(top or bottom mount and what material),also what size turbine housing are you planning to run with the 3582?

    Cheers bro,
    Paul
    LOL.. oh I know it has been going on behind the scenes for SOME time indeed!! trust me.. Im not going to turn back.. I'm in 1000% on this one!
    I know.. I have my doubts still on if the turbo is way to big or not.. but I honestly don't think it is too big. I've been talking to many different tuners and they have all said that it is a good turbo to use for my application.. yes a little on the large side but I will make the power I'm after.
    Im still not certain as to if I am running Twin scroll or a single scroll set up. I was almost 100% sold on the twin scroll, but now I don't know if its worth the extra time, money and effort.. I don't know if I will see results with a twin scroll. so thats still up in the air and stopping me from ordering a turbo as of this moment. as soon as I decide that, the turbo will be ordered.
    if its a single scroll turbo, Im looking at a GT3582R, 82mm compressor wheel, 56 tirm, .70A/R with a 4" inlet and 2.5" outlet, on the turbine side I'll be looking at a 68mm wheel, 84 trim and a .82A/R with a 3" v-band exit. and I had thought about the machine ported anti-surge housing.
    if its a twin scroll set up Id be looking at basically the same numbers but a T4 divided housing.

    How come you don't use a GT3076 instead? I've seen the cost of those replacement wheels!.. it really is almost the same cost as a completely new turbo! I know you have A LOT of experience with this which is why I really respect your advice and thoughts on the matter.
    how come you're redoing the cooling lines?

    as for the header.. Im looking to top mount, most likely out of stainless steel.. I think I will be getting a custom exhaust flange machined out of 1/2" thick SS. as for pipe diameter.. Im not sure yet.
    the Turbine housing is a T3/T4.

    as for waste gates (not that I need one yet!), but is there any benefit to running a redonculously large one?! say 60mm? if not then I'll run a single 44-46mm waste gate on the single scroll set up, and two 44-46mm waste gates on the twin scroll.

    can you recommend a good electronic boost controller? I have seen a few that are pretty sweet.. Apexi AVC-R or the HKS EVC New turbo boost controller (45003-AK005)

    BOV wise I'm going with a turbo XS type H RFL.. seems to be the loudest on the market!... so I want it!
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  5. #5
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    [disclaimer]Thanks dude,im fully no expert on this stuff and can only really point out where i went wrong with my setup,but ill put my thoughts out on yours as it may spark a few ideas/questions along the way[/disclaimer] lol.

    The main problem i see with using a large turbo on the M111 is its relatively low rev range(while this can be raised im not sure just how far on stock head parts)
    having a smaller window to produce power means you need lots of boost,and you need it fast,which is something large turbos dont appare to do at any great rate!,but it will be interesting to see how the GT35 turns out,though iv never seen the results the twin scroll sounds like the way to go however there seems to be only one turbine housing available(.78)...so your stuck if you want to fine tune with different housings later!...also i would imagine the twin scroll will require tricky work with the wastegate piping.

    Yeh i thought long about going with a slightly larger turbo,GT2871/76 was an easy pick but most likely to give surge without the larger exhaust wheel of the 30 series...but there was to many possible problems,the GT30 wouldnt fit for about 5 reasons + i didnt want any less responce and i didnt want to come across any more surge...it just all costs way to much to fix.

    Im redoing the cooling lines after i discovered the outgoing pipe from the turbo water jacket was cooked,its rated for 160 degreesC but it would get much hotter than that once the engine stops,so now the lines will be mostly alloy and i will flare the ends to suit the -6 fittings,im just sourcing a decent 1/2" pipe bender at the moment!.

    Are you going with stainless because of corrosion?,if its not corrosion than i strongly suggest you go with cast steam pipe/mild steel...alternatively if you must go stainless use the thickest wall possible dont even consider 1.6mm it will crack.
    I know top mount looks good....and it may be the only way you can do it based on the turbo dimensions,however...and its big however....mounting up top means you need to negotiate alot of problems,heat gets trapped up there close to the bonnet especially with the fire wall seal just behind,the wastegate can be tricky to plumb,the oil drain needs to dodge the header,the water lines are just a pita and the downpipe is extra long and subject to alot of stress if not adequately supported.

    However you make the header flange make sure you have it machined or sanded flat after the header has been welded,as during welding it will warp somewhat regardless of all best attempts to stop it...later you will find this helps stop loose header bolts and makes for much better sealing.

    Wastegate size is an interesting topic,you would best do some research on that as its not entirely based on your HP goal but more so what you will be expecting to see go through it with the turbo and pressure you are attempting to run. also the angle at which the waste exists the manifold plays a large role in weather or not it can regulate,i removed a small ridge inside mine helped significantly when i was fault finding my uncontrolled boost problems...however if i could go back i think the 44mm would be a better choice over the 38 with slightly larger plumbing.

    Im not sure about boost controllers but Apexi and HKS seem to have it sorted!

    Paul
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  6. #6
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by 23K
    [disclaimer]Thanks dude,im fully no expert on this stuff and can only really point out where i went wrong with my setup,but ill put my thoughts out on yours as it may spark a few ideas/questions along the way[/disclaimer] lol.

    The main problem i see with using a large turbo on the M111 is its relatively low rev range(while this can be raised im not sure just how far on stock head parts)
    having a smaller window to produce power means you need lots of boost,and you need it fast,which is something large turbos dont appare to do at any great rate!,but it will be interesting to see how the GT35 turns out,though iv never seen the results the twin scroll sounds like the way to go however there seems to be only one turbine housing available(.78)...so your stuck if you want to fine tune with different housings later!...also i would imagine the twin scroll will require tricky work with the wastegate piping.

    Yeh i thought long about going with a slightly larger turbo,GT2871/76 was an easy pick but most likely to give surge without the larger exhaust wheel of the 30 series...but there was to many possible problems,the GT30 wouldnt fit for about 5 reasons + i didnt want any less responce and i didnt want to come across any more surge...it just all costs way to much to fix.

    Im redoing the cooling lines after i discovered the outgoing pipe from the turbo water jacket was cooked,its rated for 160 degreesC but it would get much hotter than that once the engine stops,so now the lines will be mostly alloy and i will flare the ends to suit the -6 fittings,im just sourcing a decent 1/2" pipe bender at the moment!.

    Are you going with stainless because of corrosion?,if its not corrosion than i strongly suggest you go with cast steam pipe/mild steel...alternatively if you must go stainless use the thickest wall possible dont even consider 1.6mm it will crack.
    I know top mount looks good....and it may be the only way you can do it based on the turbo dimensions,however...and its big however....mounting up top means you need to negotiate alot of problems,heat gets trapped up there close to the bonnet especially with the fire wall seal just behind,the wastegate can be tricky to plumb,the oil drain needs to dodge the header,the water lines are just a pita and the downpipe is extra long and subject to alot of stress if not adequately supported.

    However you make the header flange make sure you have it machined or sanded flat after the header has been welded,as during welding it will warp somewhat regardless of all best attempts to stop it...later you will find this helps stop loose header bolts and makes for much better sealing.

    Wastegate size is an interesting topic,you would best do some research on that as its not entirely based on your HP goal but more so what you will be expecting to see go through it with the turbo and pressure you are attempting to run. also the angle at which the waste exists the manifold plays a large role in weather or not it can regulate,i removed a small ridge inside mine helped significantly when i was fault finding my uncontrolled boost problems...however if i could go back i think the 44mm would be a better choice over the 38 with slightly larger plumbing.

    Im not sure about boost controllers but Apexi and HKS seem to have it sorted!

    Paul
    Well you might not consider yourself an "expert", but in all honesty.. you're one of the few people that has turbo'd the M111 Kompressor engine.. and had to figure everything out.. so you are an expert!

    I totally agree with you on that, the huge issue with a large turbo is producing large amounts of boost fast! I think the best way to overcome this problem is a twin scroll set up.. I'm doing some more research on this right now.. I think I'm going to have to talk to someone about this, and I have found someone who seems VERY knowledgeable with this.. he is from a company called Agency Power, they produce a twin scroll turbo kit for Mitsu EVO X cars.. and they are monsters! so Im going to have to call him and get some info on this whole thing. and as for turbine housings.. If I do twin scroll my car.. there are way more options then are listed in the Garrett catalog for turbo's. So I will need to talk to a turbo distributer about it as well and find one that will work with what I want.

    well you know better then I ever would! and you are making some crazy awesome power with that 2871 anyways.. so stick with what works and produces the hp numbers.

    oh my.. that can't be good!.. so were the lines cooked because of excessive temps then.. I guess when the coolant stops circulating its going to sit and be super hot.. not the best for the lines or turbo.
    so youre going to use 1/2 aluminum? a pipe bender?! use them muscles!

    Well partially because of corrosion (although I will only be driving my W202 in the summer) but I would also like it to look pretty too! not the best reason! I love the way a nice stainless steel turbo header looks. you would recommend a cast pipe or steel.. yours is cast pipe right?
    Thats something I will have to think about as well.
    I had thoughts on some custom hood vents to hopefully alleviate some heat under the hood.. but will that be enough, I don't know.
    I think with the GT3582R top mount may be the only way.. I think if the turbo was smaller it would make more sense to run bottom mount.
    I'll hopefully have some solutions to the problems you are bringing up from experience. at this point in the game.. Im willing to work through these challenges and figure things out if it mean I'll be able to run a w202 with 500hp!
    I will have to agree that is a good idea to have the header flange machined to its perfectly true and sits on the head flush.

    Hmm.. Ill have to do some research on the waste gates as well.. really.. it even matters which way the waste gate exits the manifold?! jeeze.. so picky!
    I have alot more research to do before this turbo is ordered. a lot more then I was anticipating!

    On a side note I ordered the N/A alternator bracket for my engine the other day.. $75 for it! but its special order germany. so gotta wait.
    I'll still proceed with converting my car to N/A and remove all the supercharger parts.. I can still drive my car with no supercharger.. will just be uber slow!

    I have to agree.. Apexi and HKS seem to have it figured out. either gauge I looked at was very nice. so I'll have to figure it out at some point.
    What is that gauge that you are running in your ashtray Paul.. a turbo timer?

    Ross
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  8. #8
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    LMAO.. that is hilarious!!
    good post bro!
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

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    wow there is so much to say, u have just taken on a huge challange,
    il ad a few of my oppinions from what has been said above,
    firstly like paul says just go for a mild steel/ boiler pipe header, stainless is to much problems, i run a stainless with no problems but i wouldnt do one again and i know a few friends that wouldnt do it again, the biggest problem is they always crack and that is a pain in the ass, and they vibrate as paul found out,
    plus if you go for a top mount you cant really see the manifold anyway.

    i would say 44mm wastgate at the smallest, and yes the mounting of this is very important, ive seen a guy cut a wastegate off a manifold and weld it back on in like 5 different places before getting it right, but if you think logically about how exhaust flows you will get it right, like said machine both flanges after welding the header together,

    your poor little auto box!!!!!

    paul is the guru tho!
    -Logan-

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by c280nz
    wow there is so much to say, u have just taken on a huge challange,
    il ad a few of my oppinions from what has been said above,
    firstly like paul says just go for a mild steel/ boiler pipe header, stainless is to much problems, i run a stainless with no problems but i wouldnt do one again and i know a few friends that wouldnt do it again, the biggest problem is they always crack and that is a pain in the ass, and they vibrate as paul found out,
    plus if you go for a top mount you cant really see the manifold anyway.

    i would say 44mm wastgate at the smallest, and yes the mounting of this is very important, ive seen a guy cut a wastegate off a manifold and weld it back on in like 5 different places before getting it right, but if you think logically about how exhaust flows you will get it right, like said machine both flanges after welding the header together,

    your poor little auto box!!!!!

    paul is the guru tho!
    I do know thats a FACT for sure! it will be a big challenge.. but I've suffered long enough with a semi fast car.. I want it to be really fast now!
    I would also like your comments and advice Logan.. I know your turbo project must have been trying as well.
    do you have any pics of your set up? Im interested to see.
    A couple people have said that the thicker steel pipe would be a better route to go. but I think I will still go with the SS one. I just really prefer the look better. I still think I'll be able to see it enough to make it worth it!
    I was thinking at minimum a 44mm waste gate.. any specific reason that a larger one would be better?
    lol.. I know.. poor auto box is going to take a BEATING! I have thought about converting to a 6 speed manual.. I could still do it in the future.
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  11. #11
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    It was only a matter of time,Logan would smell this topic from frickn miles^^ Well,hopefully with alittle direction from these two 202 mad kiwi guys we can help save you some undue effort in the long run!

    Yep its no good for the bearings or cooling lines when the engine stops hence why im trying to bring the exchanger pump on once the engine stops!,will actually be using 3/8"(-6) alloy pipe,but are having trouble trying to get a decent bender for cheap(decent = $500)...might try hire one.

    Also i think the steam pipe has a slightly smaller ID than stainless sizes and thus will give you better responce(possibly at the cost of alittle high end)

    As logan mentioned,the wastegate angle is very important,when you reach boost limit the unneeded portion of exhaust gas needs to bypass the turbine as freely as possible,this is both good for efficiency/Hp and boost control.
    my waste system is barely acceptable as mine exits at a right angle from the manifold and the centre peak inside the collector is slightly above where it exits...both are not desirable but we ran out of options/room.
    one of the best ways is to gradually merge off the turbine housing,however this is very tricky on a top mount like the M111 and welding to the turbine housing is very risky!


    Cool,it should all bolt straight in!,just make sure you do that crank pully up properly^^.

    the thing in the ash try is that Defi display that i used to have mounted behind the steering wheel!,but have mounted the boost gauge there beside the cluster now as its a much to view there + it tidy's up the dash.

    haha,yeh hope your auto has what it takes^^


    Paul
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by 23K
    It was only a matter of time,Logan would smell this topic from frickn miles^^ Well,hopefully with alittle direction from these two 202 mad kiwi guys we can help save you some undue effort in the long run!

    Yep its no good for the bearings or cooling lines when the engine stops hence why im trying to bring the exchanger pump on once the engine stops!,will actually be using 3/8"(-6) alloy pipe,but are having trouble trying to get a decent bender for cheap(decent = $500)...might try hire one.

    Also i think the steam pipe has a slightly smaller ID than stainless sizes and thus will give you better responce(possibly at the cost of alittle high end)

    As logan mentioned,the wastegate angle is very important,when you reach boost limit the unneeded portion of exhaust gas needs to bypass the turbine as freely as possible,this is both good for efficiency/Hp and boost control.
    my waste system is barely acceptable as mine exits at a right angle from the manifold and the centre peak inside the collector is slightly above where it exits...both are not desirable but we ran out of options/room.
    one of the best ways is to gradually merge off the turbine housing,however this is very tricky on a top mount like the M111 and welding to the turbine housing is very risky!


    Cool,it should all bolt straight in!,just make sure you do that crank pully up properly^^.

    the thing in the ash try is that Defi display that i used to have mounted behind the steering wheel!,but have mounted the boost gauge there beside the cluster now as its a much to view there + it tidy's up the dash.

    haha,yeh hope your auto has what it takes^^


    Paul
    It must have a nice Turbo stench to this thread. he found it!! I'm sure both you Kiwi guys will offer very helpful advice for my project.

    why is a pipe bender costing so much?! Im guessing you are sussing out a pneumatic one? I'd say for sure rent one.. or have someone bend the lines for you.. make a template out of a coat hanger or something easy to bend and take it somewhere to have them bend it!

    I will for sure look into the steam pipe.. but I'm still looking for it to be SS.
    I'm pretty certain I'll have the room to make the waste gate exit at a decent angle. but I wont know for sure until I get my turbo manifold and turbo in place to see what kind of room is left.
    Im not interested at all to weld onto the turbo housing!! I'll figure out something.

    Still waiting for my alt bracket.. I have the bolts and a new N/A belt ready and waiting! hopefully get the bracket next week some time. then Ill remove the entire supercharger system, my Kleemann K23 kit and start with the N/A conversion! I also figured out how to get an MB OEM aux electric fan in place instead of that viscous one.. I have all the parts to do the conversion for that.. but I need to move my rad forward so there is room to put the fan in. I'll hopefully figure that out as well. yes yes!.. crank pulley is a must to be torqued!! which reminds me I need a new crank pulley bolt.

    Oh okay.. so is the Defi display for your boost, a/f, egt and so on? I remember seeing another controller of some sort in your arm rest too. any new pics of your car Paul? I looked at car domain the other day, but I think I've sen them all before.
    I have a new boost gauge and a/f gauge with data logger to install in my w202 for the turbo. comes with a wideband o2 sensor.. pretty slick set up. its made by Zeitronix.

    for now the Auto has what it takes!.. Id like to do the 6 speed man, but if I decide to keep auto.. Im swapping to a newer style 722.6 tranny with the paddle shifters on the steering wheel.
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  13. #13
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    The difference in a good pipe bender as it does a tight radius without collapsing or scoring the pipe,most of the benders in this catagory are a set of dies with a roller that follows the shape of the die,Iv had a look at alot of benders priced from $50 - 300 and you get very little for your money,infact it may be cheaper to make one!,as you say the other option was to have the local tube bending croud do it with there mandrel bending gear,however they needed 80mm between bends and bending up some wire + getting it right the first time was unlikely without the car onsite,so that will be the last resort.

    The problem with the wastegate mounting is the pipe must come off around the collector somwhere(unless you bring it off individual pipes),which you will find tight as a tight thing once you get all the other pipes in there around it.
    You have one major advantage not having the steering box there so you may be able to do all sorts of tricky things with the waste even if you go twin scroll.

    Will be interesting to see the electric fan install!,are you moving the radiator forward because of the water pump?...if so another option is to run the N/A models pump and pump pully...give alot more space!.moving the rad foward might also clash with how the A/C fans mount,could be tricky.

    The defi display just does oil temp/press,water temp,exhaust temp and fuel press. it doesnt do boost or afr,boost is best monitored on a gauge!,the boost gauge and the defi display link to the controller in between the seats.i also had a greddy multi switch in there which i was going to use to control the electric fans...but then i ended up just using the viscous so i removed and sold it
    look forward to seeing the new gear!. sorry no new pics on cardomain i havent had it out for months,still waiting on the exhaust parts/divert valve so i can get it running again.

    Just a thought on the wastgate topic(been thinking but it for days^^)the size it needs to be is somewhat dependant on a combination of your turbine size vs shaft speed(boost) Vs exhaust volume...in other words if you run a small turbine with low boost its likley you would need a fairly large wastegate...however if you ran high boost on the exact same housing you wouldnt need such a big gate as most of the exhaust gas would go through the turbine,likewise if you ran a large turbine there is lesser need for a large wastegate.
    Another thought is weather or not a small wastegate at wide open flows better than a large wastegate that only opens slightly to give the equivilant however thinking more into it i dont think flow would make any difference as they both will open enough to allow the right amount to keep the desired boost level(which is contriversial to what i said earlier about good wastegate flow making it more efficient) ....one possible negative of a large gate may be that it will flow too much to quickly which could see you with boost stablitity problems...hmmmm

    Anyways im sure you will but before you buy a gate have a good talk the tuners!

    laters bro,
    paul
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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by 23K
    The difference in a good pipe bender as it does a tight radius without collapsing or scoring the pipe,most of the benders in this catagory are a set of dies with a roller that follows the shape of the die,Iv had a look at alot of benders priced from $50 - 300 and you get very little for your money,infact it may be cheaper to make one!,as you say the other option was to have the local tube bending croud do it with there mandrel bending gear,however they needed 80mm between bends and bending up some wire + getting it right the first time was unlikely without the car onsite,so that will be the last resort.

    The problem with the wastegate mounting is the pipe must come off around the collector somwhere(unless you bring it off individual pipes),which you will find tight as a tight thing once you get all the other pipes in there around it.
    You have one major advantage not having the steering box there so you may be able to do all sorts of tricky things with the waste even if you go twin scroll.

    Will be interesting to see the electric fan install!,are you moving the radiator forward because of the water pump?...if so another option is to run the N/A models pump and pump pully...give alot more space!.moving the rad foward might also clash with how the A/C fans mount,could be tricky.

    The defi display just does oil temp/press,water temp,exhaust temp and fuel press. it doesnt do boost or afr,boost is best monitored on a gauge!,the boost gauge and the defi display link to the controller in between the seats.i also had a greddy multi switch in there which i was going to use to control the electric fans...but then i ended up just using the viscous so i removed and sold it
    look forward to seeing the new gear!. sorry no new pics on cardomain i havent had it out for months,still waiting on the exhaust parts/divert valve so i can get it running again.

    Just a thought on the wastgate topic(been thinking but it for days^^)the size it needs to be is somewhat dependant on a combination of your turbine size vs shaft speed(boost) Vs exhaust volume...in other words if you run a small turbine with low boost its likley you would need a fairly large wastegate...however if you ran high boost on the exact same housing you wouldnt need such a big gate as most of the exhaust gas would go through the turbine,likewise if you ran a large turbine there is lesser need for a large wastegate.
    Another thought is weather or not a small wastegate at wide open flows better than a large wastegate that only opens slightly to give the equivilant however thinking more into it i dont think flow would make any difference as they both will open enough to allow the right amount to keep the desired boost level(which is contriversial to what i said earlier about good wastegate flow making it more efficient) ....one possible negative of a large gate may be that it will flow too much to quickly which could see you with boost stablitity problems...hmmmm

    Anyways im sure you will but before you buy a gate have a good talk the tuners!

    laters bro,
    paul
    This pipe bender sounds pretty heavy duty! it doesn't seem too cost effective to buy your own to use it once. I understand the whole thing with having to take the car to someone to have the pipes bent up to fit perfectly. but maybe the whole using some thicker gauge wire or thin pipe you can easily bend may work well as a template for them.

    I still think I'll be a little better off then you were when you had to run all those pipes and the turbo.. I have a lot more space.. the power steering box not being there on my car gives me more options I think. but we will find out when I get to that point!
    The electric fan has been on the back burner for a loooooong time! but I have all the parts, and after test fitting it and it NOT fitting at all, I had a look at a no kompressor w202 M111, I figured out the rad is moved further towards the front of the car. so after I move my rad, it will fit! and the small electric fans out front will be removed and disposed of! the 98 C230 does not have any fans in the front for the a/c.. so I wont be using them either.
    Oh okay.. that system looks pretty sweet, all the gauges in the defi display are of great use, plus they are all in one unit, its very tidy. I agree you need a separate boost gauge and A/F gauge, probably more accurate.
    some food for thought there on the waste gate, but I will for sure have to talk to someone about it when I get a hold of this guy to talk about my turbo options.

    supercharger system being removed, Kleemann kit being removed, and then the N/A belt drive install is all set for friday! gonna be a long night.. hopefully not!
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  15. #15
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    Actually its not to heavy duty,its just nobody ships them here so they all cost way to much...this one would be suitable and its $60usd (here its $320),its likely you will need to do alloy piping off your jacket as well!.


    I think i test fit an electric fan shroud a while back too,its ment to slip into the same rubbers as the radiator does,however if i recall the radiator has round mounts and the shroud had half rounds which must mean the n/a M111 radiator muct have half rounds too?,i guess you could just make some mounts or just get the n/a radiator?(if there different).
    ...also if you do shift the radiator will you just bend the A/C piping to suit?,those fans on the front are suprisingly heavy for there size,removing could even help with understeer^^.
    Have you though about if you removed the A/C fans you could mount the IC there?...it would make for short piping and you wouldnt need a large hole under your bumper!.

    Have fun on the conversion,my guess is you will be driving it home after changing the bits?...hope it goes ok without boost^^.
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  16. #16
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    Originally posted by 23K
    Actually its not to heavy duty,its just nobody ships them here so they all cost way to much...this one would be suitable and its $60usd (here its $320),its likely you will need to do alloy piping off your jacket as well!.

    I think i test fit an electric fan shroud a while back too,its ment to slip into the same rubbers as the radiator does,however if i recall the radiator has round mounts and the shroud had half rounds which must mean the n/a M111 radiator muct have half rounds too?,i guess you could just make some mounts or just get the n/a radiator?(if there different).
    ...also if you do shift the radiator will you just bend the A/C piping to suit?,those fans on the front are suprisingly heavy for there size,removing could even help with understeer^^.
    Have you though about if you removed the A/C fans you could mount the IC there?...it would make for short piping and you wouldnt need a large hole under your bumper!.

    Have fun on the conversion,my guess is you will be driving it home after changing the bits?...hope it goes ok without boost^^.
    That is a decent pipe bender.. and I cant believe how much it will cost you! why so much down your way? because of having it shipped to you? or is that locating one local? I just may have to do some alloy pipe off my coolant feed as well.. we will have to see though!
    Im not sure about that.. I think there are half rounds at the bottom of the rad too.. but I'll find out soon enough. hopefully tackle that soon. I ordered the different coolant upper and lower hoses for when I do move the rad forward more.. one of the a/c lines is different.. the one from the condenser to the receiver drier. Im going to try and get it to move a bit before I buy that a/c line. I think the water pump is different.. have to wait to see. there are 2 different part numbers for the kompressor and non kompressor water pumps.. but my parts guy couldnt verify since the part doesnt even come up when he tried to see who stocked it. Ill find out next week if the part exists or not! there isnt too much different between kompressor and no kompressor. I think I have it all sorted out.
    I can imagine.. those fans in front arent exactly light. so hopefully they save a lil weight! I hadnt thought about doing the intercooler there.. might be enough room. but I have plans for a liquid to air intercooler set up, so I may just go ahead with that and figure that out. keep the heat exchanger where the stock intercooler is.

    so far the conversion is a fail! I never even thought to bring a puller with me.. the crank pulley is half off (the kleemann kit has 2 parts to the crank pulley.. the actual pulley and an adapter that goes onto the crank and the pulley bolts to it) I never thought to bring a puller to get the second part off.. so I have to wait till tomorrow morning. get a puller from work.. go back to my storage unit and pull it off.. put the non kompressor crank on and take the tools I borrowed from work back to work! then continue with the rest of the stuff.
    no Im not driving my W202.. I have a storage unit, my car is up on jack stands.. got my W210 as my daily driver!
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
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  17. #17
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    I think its a combination of shipping weight and low volume sales that make them that expensive here!.

    You can bend the A/C quite far without any problems,well...mine did =).

    There is an n/a pump and pump pully available,i ran this when i first did my conversion because its slighty less rotating wieght and the plan was to go electric,but then changed back to the Kompressor pump for two reasons,the impaller looked better(the n/a pump i got might have been a knockoff mb item) and i decided i was going to keep the viscous after all(well more so i couldnt be bothered fabricating a shroud for electric).

    Water/air sounds like a good plan!.

    bad luck on the puller!!,i thought you may have been doing it at work hence driving it home!...hope you've got a decent storage shed,the one i had was tiny which made it tough to do anything!

    PICS!?....
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by 23K
    I think its a combination of shipping weight and low volume sales that make them that expensive here!.

    You can bend the A/C quite far without any problems,well...mine did =).

    There is an n/a pump and pump pully available,i ran this when i first did my conversion because its slighty less rotating wieght and the plan was to go electric,but then changed back to the Kompressor pump for two reasons,the impaller looked better(the n/a pump i got might have been a knockoff mb item) and i decided i was going to keep the viscous after all(well more so i couldnt be bothered fabricating a shroud for electric).

    Water/air sounds like a good plan!.

    bad luck on the puller!!,i thought you may have been doing it at work hence driving it home!...hope you've got a decent storage shed,the one i had was tiny which made it tough to do anything!

    PICS!?....
    Anything in the states would cost too much to ship it to you? is the one you found local even? too bad its going to cost so much. you need someone to go on vacation to new zealand and bring you one!
    good to know!! I'll have to give it a try and bend it a bit!
    Okay then.. I'll have to see next week if my parts guy found it. I asked him to check for me, but the part number for the water pump (kompressor) didnt come up, I'm guessing because no one has ever ordered one before! but there were 2 different part numbers for the pumps. do you think I'll need to get the n/a one for the clearance? Im pretty sure once I move the rad forward I'll have enough room.
    I have to say that a water to air intercooler will be more efficient, and just plain bad ass!
    Yeh I know!.. so I ended up going back to my storage unit yesterday morning with the tools I needed.. got the Kleemann crank off and the n/a pulley on. so Im half way there!



    couldn't really snap any pics.. really bad lighting in the storage unit.. plus the light shuts off after about 10 mins of me being there with the door open!
    Ill try and snap a pic of the front of the engine with the new pulley in place. but as you can see the n/a pulley is on the left and the kleemann pulley is on the right.
    Ill try and do a comparison of the OEM kompressor crank with the Kleemann crank.

    My storage unit sucks.. it ha no power outlets, poor light and its not thaaaat big (10x20).
    so the most I will be doing is swapping out all these parts for the n/a conversion. my buddy offered me his garage for a month and a half to do all the work I need with the turbo. so once I get all the parts I need I'll take him up on the offer!
    still trying to figure out the turbo to use. maybe the GT35 is a lil on the big side. but I'm still trying for it!
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
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  19. #19
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    Im still investigating shipping options,one from Canada was $50 by boat(air would be wicked expensive im guessing)

    Heres a pick of my n/a pump and pully ,it would give you more room if you need it....so if your planning to put the heat exchanger somewhere infromt of the engine?,the extra space could help.


    Good news on the conversion then!,that overdrive pully looks massive^^,it would destroy a small planet if it ever came loose!! haha. Yeh my storage shed was the same,though there was power near by so i ran extension leads and flood lights^^.

    Turbo project takes aaaages,tell your bud you need 6+ months garage time and take something to bribe with =P

    All good man just get us some more pics when light allows!

    edit: oh yeh what frequency is stamped on your n/a crank pully?

    Paul
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  20. #20
    Senior Member dokotela's Avatar
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    ah, finally caught up to you guys.

    this will be most beneficial to me for the coming months.
    i first have to decide whether to do m111 turbo on my 201, or m103 turbo, or m104 turbo.

    if i choose the m111 turbo setup for my 201, i wouldnt turbo my 202, but if i choose the m103 or m104 setup, then i will definitely turbo my m111 202 .

    so far, there seems to be a lot of "little" things that may have been easily overlooked when doing this.

    i was thinking on going with a gt28 turbo on the m111. will this be the best option. i dont want to stretch the limits on the m111 engine in terms of revability, so i thought that early boost would be best. should i go smaller?

    W201's: 87 2.3-16 mosselman turbo, 89 2.5-16, 93 AMG 3.2, 93 1.8, 93 2.3 8v sportline x2
    W202's: 97 c23T, 98 C23K, 98 C230K, 98(2JZ), 2000 AMG
    W203: 02 C32 AMG

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by 23K
    Im still investigating shipping options,one from Canada was $50 by boat(air would be wicked expensive im guessing)

    Heres a pick of my n/a pump and pully ,it would give you more room if you need it....so if your planning to put the heat exchanger somewhere infromt of the engine?,the extra space could help.

    Good news on the conversion then!,that overdrive pully looks massive^^,it would destroy a small planet if it ever came loose!! haha. Yeh my storage shed was the same,though there was power near by so i ran extension leads and flood lights^^.

    Turbo project takes aaaages,tell your bud you need 6+ months garage time and take something to bribe with =P

    All good man just get us some more pics when light allows!

    edit: oh yeh what frequency is stamped on your n/a crank pully?

    Paul
    Well thats pretty decent.. may take a lil bit to get to you though! well worth the wait if you save a couple hundred bucks.
    Oh nice.. I can see the pump is a bit shorter.. It will be my last resort for more space if need it after I put the fan in. I still hope I have enough clearance without doing the pump.
    Yeah the Kleemann pulley is redonculously HUGE! lol, I think it would destroy a small planet if it came loose!
    well you lucked out a bit having an outlet so close to you! I have absolutely nothing! so I can only do the minimum in my unit. you really think i"ll need 6 months?! god damn I hope not! I want to drive it this year!
    I will probably run the heat exchanger in the stock intercooler location.. the liquid to air units arent as thick so it should fit in the same area with no problems. Im going to have to completely custom make this whole kit!
    I dont know what the frequency is on the n/a pulley.. does it make a difference? I'll try and look for it the next time i'm working on my w202.

    Stock Kompressor crank on the left, Kleemann crank on the right!




    [QUOTE]Originally posted by dokotela
    ah, finally caught up to you guys.

    this will be most beneficial to me for the coming months.
    i first have to decide whether to do m111 turbo on my 201, or m103 turbo, or m104 turbo.

    if i choose the m111 turbo setup for my 201, i wouldnt turbo my 202, but if i choose the m103 or m104 setup, then i will definitely turbo my m111 202 .

    so far, there seems to be a lot of "little" things that may have been easily overlooked when doing this.

    i was thinking on going with a gt28 turbo on the m111. will this be the best option. i dont want to stretch the limits on the m111 engine in terms of revability, so i thought that early boost would be best. should i go smaller?


    so you did a M111 engine swap in your W201? if you turbo the M111.. I'd probably go with either a GT28 or GT30 if you want reliability and some decent power.. I wouldn't go any smaller then the GT28 though. maybe Paul could offer some advice for you on that. but I must say that a M103 or M104 turbo would be dope! twin turbo that shit!
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
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    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  22. #22
    Senior Member dokotela's Avatar
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    i havnt swapped out the 201 yet, hence the number of options i have. do you think it would be better to twin turbo the l6? i thought it would be more efficient on a v6. that russian dude with the blue w124 with the m103 turbo is making some serious power and on stock internals. crazy stuff.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoV8ePXxFSE

    i also have the option of m104, NA screamer with individual throttle bodies off an M3, but that would be a costly affair cos almost all the stuff would have to be custom.

    did you ever consider twincharging? what about that remote turbo setup by sts?
    W201's: 87 2.3-16 mosselman turbo, 89 2.5-16, 93 AMG 3.2, 93 1.8, 93 2.3 8v sportline x2
    W202's: 97 c23T, 98 C23K, 98 C230K, 98(2JZ), 2000 AMG
    W203: 02 C32 AMG

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by dokotela
    i havnt swapped out the 201 yet, hence the number of options i have. do you think it would be better to twin turbo the l6? i thought it would be more efficient on a v6. that russian dude with the blue w124 with the m103 turbo is making some serious power and on stock internals. crazy stuff.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoV8ePXxFSE

    i also have the option of m104, NA screamer with individual throttle bodies off an M3, but that would be a costly affair cos almost all the stuff would have to be custom.

    did you ever consider twincharging? what about that remote turbo setup by sts?
    Oh okay, I see. Thats a few engine choices! I would say do the M104 and twin turbo! there is a mosselmann kit on the market for twin turboing an M104 engine.
    I have seen and heard of that russian guys car.. he has his own website too, he is one crazy mo fo! his W124 puts down some SERIOUS power.
    now that would be sick and different.. individual throttle bodies are so classic and just plain cool. It all really depends on what you want to do with your car. how much HP are you looking to make on the engine?

    I had thought about keeping my SC and adding a turbo.. but it doesn't make sense to do both.. lack of room as well for both. and I don't know if I'll be able to make enough boost with the rear mount.
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
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    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  24. #24
    how much are you putting the Kleemann pulley up for..... im very interested.

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by koepfsm
    how much are you putting the Kleemann pulley up for..... im very interested.
    sent you a PM
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

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