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Thread: DIY Adjustable rear camber arms

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedrobenz View Post
    do we leave the front alone?

    as far the toe on the rear, did i understand it right that it will not affect toe with this DIY camber kit?
    If you change rear the camber angle it will affect the toe angle in the rear, when you take it to get aligned they will adjust the toe as well.
    1986 201.034 5-speed, Evo II wheels
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  2. #152
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    I know this is around a year old but may still be of great interest here...

    Here's my thread from the Crossfire forum that shows the setup we've been using for the last 3 yrs or so. Only difference in my setup is we chose to use a DOM steel tube in place of the Aluminum one for superior strength {Mod edit:FALSE-only when same size and wall thickness tubing is used. Steel is a lot heavier. Pound for pound, aluminum thicker wall tube at the same weight as steel is stronger. Aluminum is more expensive. CM tubing is lighter than both steel and aluminum, thus can be used much thinner wall for weight savings over steel while retaining the same needed strength tube}. Use of dissimilar metals (steel threaded into Alum.) will cause galvanic fracturing and accelerated corrosion.{Mod edit: True only when uncoated metals are used-thus FALSE in this case. Steel rod ends are generally zinc coated and aluminum is anodized. Steel tubing is fine on a race car where the steel tube does no see a lot of water. I would not suggest steel in this application for a daily street car-WHY? Threads will rust over time and you will loose adjustment ability through corrosion seizing} where Same Speedway 4-bar ends are used. This particular setup has been thoroughly tested in the World Of Outlaws series and is made to collapse the tube during a horrendous crash which saves on destroying other components which was happening with the use of solid bars {Mod edit: False- Aluminum hex tub is commonly used}. I highly recommend that you grease the threads and run them completely in and out of the tubes to make sure they don't seize and remain easy to move. Especially helpful for those that are autocrossing and want to change their settings from street by throwing in some neg camber for racing. Also coat the inside of the 4-bar, the inserts and the bolt for complete squeek free fit. A smidge of blue Locktite on the nuts also helps{Mod edit: You do not need locktite. Jam nut use eliminates the need. Loctite harms threads }. I have this setup on both of my Xfires for the last 3 yrs. without a peep. Both are at factory height, but they both experienced the premature wearing to the inner rear treads, which is very common on the larger Xfire rear tires. Before installing these I would only get maybe 15K out of the rears. After installing these I got over 42K out of my last set, saving me a butt load of cash.

    I've also sold this same setup to a buddy who is a MB mechanic with the local Firestone and he's installed a couple-o-dozen sets on different model MBs with perfect results. I included some of the pics from 202brabus first post and there's a YouTube vid @ the bottom of the thread showing the complete removal and install process. Also, all parts have links included and the prices have been updated as of 2/19/2015.

    http://www.crossfireforum.org/forum/...tml#post712854

    FYI - Here's the link to the YouTube vid incase it'e not viewable....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xS5UZZBWFM

    {Mod Edit NOTE: than eliminate this post, I felt it was more important to keep some very common misconceptions and provide actual data.
    Dean}
    Last edited by Vetruck; 03-08-2015 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Poor information

  3. #153
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    I would like to elaborate a little more on the above post. I also want to caution SYFI to please watch what info you post on this suspension forum when it comes to fitting any agenda of selling parts with made up info to back attempted sells- As you listed in the above post you've "sold" a few sets to a MB mechanic.

    Why are steel tube components inferior? Because they are heavier in unsprung weight. Every car has what is called a ride ratio. That ratio is the weight of the body and parts of a car resting on the springs which is known as sprung weight. That weight is then set over the amount of weight of all of the suspension and wheel assembly part-some are a percentage of both sprung and unsprung like link arms and shocks since the connect sprung/unsprung. A typical non-luxury/non-performance street car may have as low a ratio as 2:1 which is poor ride ratio. A better quality ride will be more like 4:1 or 5:1 range. Most high end race cars shoot for 5:1 but the reduction of sprung weight means the use of VERY EXPENSIVE unsprung components to keep a high ride ratio. What this means is every 5 lbs you drop in chassis weight you need to drop 1 lb of unsprung weight to maintain a chassis that will not unsettle over bumps.

    Now the reason for this info is because I do not like just overriding someone's post without
    giving hard facts as to why posted info is wrong and/or misleading. I feel I owe the poster and everyone else a factual explanation that it is not opinion, rather it is fact.

    The use of aluminum in motorsports has long been a practice (as many of you know already- I will list this for those who do not). I am a professional {that means I am paid for my specialties} on a NASCAR race team and specialize in chassis dynamics. I deal with racing on a weekly basis first hand and am in quite the position to debate the above said misinfo on World of Outlaws using steel arms. Race cars want low unsprung weight. The lowest out there is Chromemoly, then aluminum, and finally steel when used in street applications. Chromemoly (CM) is frowned upon in the racing community and is mostly regulated against due to the fact CM has to be "normalized" after the fabrication/welding process. Thus mild steel cages are used. In suspension link arms, aluminum is stronger pound for pound then mild steel. Since CM has to have bungs welded into the DOM tubing ends, CM is not allowed in most professional series if not all that I know of. Hence why I list the WOOutlaw cars use aluminum because they want strength and low unsprung weight, and mostly because they are one piece links without welds.

    I will ask that anyone posting info on materials to please list links to facts in order to back an argument as to what is better than what. There is far too much hearsay on misconceptions on the internet...plus most car websites fall victim of posts where people say something is best "just because its what they have on their car".

    Thank you, an my apologise if anyone feels I have offended them. My intention here is to always stick to factual info so people spend their hard earned money with the best possible education on parts choices.

    Here or some weight statistics for everyone on tube qualities.

    24" steel tube 1.25"OD by .120 wall= 2.89 lbs
    24" aluminum tube 1.25"OD by .250" wall= 1.84" Twice as thick but still weighs less by one full pound.

    Dean aka Vetruck
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    Last edited by Vetruck; 03-08-2015 at 07:55 PM.

  4. #154
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    I had a set made with 304 SS links. I had never considered unsprung weight before this last post.

    Would that be too heavy compared to aluminum rods of equal size? Using QA1 XM-10 rod ends as well. I know ss is better for corosion which plays a small factor living in the PNW.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denlasoul View Post
    I had a set made with 304 SS rods. I had never considered unsprung weight before this last post.

    Would that be too heavy compared to aluminum rods of equal size? Using QA1 XM-10 rod ends as well. I know ss is better for corosion which plays a small factor living in the PNW.
    When I checked the weights, the T304 SS tube is about twice as heavy as the Aluminum 6061. Stainless steel arms are extremely flex resistant and a very dense material. The used to make control arm 5-lnk setups for C3 Corvettes out of stainless steel arms. The setups are heavy but are certainly strong and extremely corrosion resistant. More of a show car thing for shiny looks.
    The positive side of things is you are not using all that much length f camber arms. Only about 9" from what I recall (sorry, I deal with so many types of cars and too many figures in my head). A 12" piece of 304 is about 1.5 lbs, where as the aluminum is about .8 lbs. you are probably about as heavy/light as the OEM stamped steel units.
    If you were to build an entire rear 5link MB suspension out of all SS links and compare to all alum links? The 10 bars total on both combined sides of the MB rear suspension would be about 8 lbs heavier. That is equivilant to adding 40 lbs of sprung weight to get the same ride ratio- About the same weight a smaller car battery. A MB battery is about 50-60 lbs just for reference. You can see the benefits of using lighter weight products.

    The other thing most people do not consider is the heavier weight of aftermarket large diameter wheels and tires. You can buy very heavy wheels and be adding 10lbs per wheel alone. This is a CONSIDERABLE unsprung weight gain and really hurts ride quality as well as chassis handing over bumps. The heavier assemblies with thrust upward with greater momentum and travel further against the shock damper and spring rate-thus-unsettling the chassis where a lesser weight assembly would not as much.

    Everything I do I consider weight- Especially unsprung weight. it is why I have a 4cylinder car. My wheels and tires are only 2 lbs heavier than the OEM ones but much larger in width AND diameter.

    I am building a Dodge neon endure racecar right now for some "Night of destruction" races (kind of a smash up derby road race) as exhibition after our NASCAR races. I choose that car because of the lightweright car (power to weight ratio) but also the suspension assemblies are very light. The car is 1980 lbs (started at 2470 prior to me stripping it and then welding a 4pt cage) The car is 160hp as it sits now so power to weight ratio is in the 12/1 range which is respectfully quick (faster then stripped racing Miata's). Everything on this car has been shaved, cut, grind, etc to try and reduce weight everywhere both sprung and unsprung. Ashame Ill have it smashed up in 6 races but it will pay fir itself in royalties/prize money.

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    Last edited by Vetruck; 03-09-2015 at 01:44 AM.

  6. #156
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    As far as sales of such products go, to keep your butt covered in case a failure / lawsuit I believe you want to have LLC (limited-liability company)

    I know you mean no harm, but in a serious accident or God forbid a fatality, installation of such parts may come up and you can get sued. I am surprised (wait, actually I'm not... ) that Firestone would offer such a thing.

  7. #157
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    If the static load rating on a rod end is 17,995 lbs, what does that actually mean? That it is capable of holding 17995 lbs of constant pressure at the thread or ball joint, etc?

    Also, can you give me an idea of what are typical pressure loads for these types of components?
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  8. #158
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    17995 static load is their failure If something were to suspend from it. Load applied to a in this situation is probably only a few thousand pounds worst case scenario at best-most of the time less than 100 lbs. Just like ball joints have different qualities and require maintenance or replacement, The better quality bought in is looked upon the same way. A lot of people use lesser quality com-12 rod ends in circle track racing only because there are a lot of accidents and better quality ones would be too expensive to replace all the time.
    Last edited by Vetruck; 03-09-2015 at 11:12 AM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemoLexi View Post
    As far as sales of such products go, to keep your butt covered in case a failure / lawsuit I believe you want to have LLC (limited-liability company)

    I know you mean no harm, but in a serious accident or God forbid a fatality, installation of such parts may come up and you can get sued. I am surprised (wait, actually I'm not... ) that Firestone would offer such a thing.
    This is very good info for anyone selling aftermarket parts. People often do not realize these parts are not DOT approved and could get their butts sued it something bad happens. Even using them is a legal risk- always buy the best stuff available.

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