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Thread: best bang for buck

  1. #76
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    Thanks, this is a lot to keep track of especially since nobody makes these parts with a turbo application in mind. I'm thinking for my goals it's best just to leave things like the internals and cams as is like you said and focus on getting a good tune without opening it up. best not to get ahead of myself.
    Completely mad.
    '99 C230K, intake and exhaust more on the way.
    '86 MKIV Escort RS Turbo, stock for now, chip and more boost on the way
    '75 Fiat 124 Spider, koni shocks, bigger carb and drilled/slotted brakes
    to tune and hoon the mbz master race.

  2. #77
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    No no no no no non noonononoNONONO hahahaha........ i want to stick a needle in my eye^^. I have said from the begining of the thead..as nicely as possible at first^^ but i'll be more to the point.... >>> it is near pointless turboing it if your not going to investigate the cam setup,If you dont investigate and it results in bore wash you will forever fill your oil with fuel and slowly but surely kill your engine, it will also create tuning problems. There is a chance that if you have external exhaust recirculation your overlap may be much less and you may not need to change cams but only adjust timing...either way YOU NEED TO DEGREE IT TO FIND OUT,then YOU NEED TO TALK WITH SOMEONE WHO BUILDS CAMS,LIVES ON CAMS,SLEEPS WITH CAMS,EATS CAMS,IS A CAM....hahaha geez iv just lost it these days.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
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    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  3. #78
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    ugh my bad. I thought that was in reference to your advice if i wanted to change the cams. I thought you just changed the timing? Now I'm confused.
    Completely mad.
    '99 C230K, intake and exhaust more on the way.
    '86 MKIV Escort RS Turbo, stock for now, chip and more boost on the way
    '75 Fiat 124 Spider, koni shocks, bigger carb and drilled/slotted brakes
    to tune and hoon the mbz master race.

  4. #79
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    Could you not change the resistor and retard the ignition timing?
    You never had me, you never had your car

  5. #80
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    CAM TIMING!! =), Spark plays no part in the problem(aka ignition timing)

    Read the thread carfully=)
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    CAM TIMING!! =), Spark plays no part in the problem(aka ignition timing)

    Read the thread carfully=)
    lol. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I must sound like a n00b. You just adjusted your cam timing correct? When I get the second engine I will be sure to investigate my options cam wise.
    Completely mad.
    '99 C230K, intake and exhaust more on the way.
    '86 MKIV Escort RS Turbo, stock for now, chip and more boost on the way
    '75 Fiat 124 Spider, koni shocks, bigger carb and drilled/slotted brakes
    to tune and hoon the mbz master race.

  7. #82
    He adjusted his cam timing but making a custom set-up on the front of the engine/head area

  8. #83
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    Haha,its ok!..we all started this game somewhere=)

    When we adjusted my setup we only did the exhaust cam,this is because the intake cam is hard to do with the actuator in use,you really need to remove it completely and run a slotted exhaust cam in its place. We adjusted it out of curiosity to see if we could get gains,and we did...10hp throughout the rpm band...not bad,this was obtained by retarding it 5 degrees,however this would mean more overlap,so the gains most likely came from the later opening rather than late closing...very odd...but thats what this is all about.

    What really gets me going is that i knew this engine had large overlap at the begining of it all,but i did not understand the implications!...many years ago Ross (slammedC) sent me this genuine MB info for the M111.
    Please read them carefully,you will understand they do this for added power,but also EGR!...and while this may work fine with low backpresser and 6psi SC...once you up the pressure ratio with turbo this it all goes out the window.

    If i had sorted this issue early i would most likely have kept my turbo setup,i just couldnt go through a full cam design with retune...it would have cost me at least 5-10k buy the time i rebuilt with new rings...and even then what if it went wrong again. arg/






    Last edited by Pagz; 07-08-2011 at 12:29 AM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  9. #84
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    This is what happens when fuel/exhaust etc pools in the intake.(its not oil)
    Remember,thats upstream of the injectors!!!,there is also bits that have been spat into the plenum...it screams REVERSION.

    Last edited by Pagz; 07-08-2011 at 12:39 AM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  10. #85
    So from what I understand what you are saying.. You advise basically removing the magnetic cam adjuster completely.. basically re-doing the front end of the camshafts, and make it like most normal cars with 2 adjustable gears on the front?

    From what it appears, the adjuster magnet seems to allow for an "better idle" but without damaged "peak power". Which doesn't make sense because the idle on this engine sucks
    Last edited by gakz; 07-08-2011 at 07:17 AM.

  11. #86
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    Yes thats the easiest way i can see to do it,but you may also be able to KEEP the actuator,slot it and retard the whole mechanism further(to remove some of the overlap when advanced,but remember this could affect idle in a nagative way when retarded),the problem is it would need to be removed to be adjusted(hard)...these are only informed assumptions,you need to speak with cam builders because you need to check piston to valve clearance in all situations.

    When the cam actuator is removed its pretty much the same as the exhaust cam(minus the oil feed) Im pretty sure you could use the exhaust sproket i have on the intake.



    Now how about that C43^^
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by gakz View Post
    Which doesn't make sense because the idle on this engine sucks
    no kidding. i've been meaning to replace my engine mounts the whole car shakes at idle.
    Completely mad.
    '99 C230K, intake and exhaust more on the way.
    '86 MKIV Escort RS Turbo, stock for now, chip and more boost on the way
    '75 Fiat 124 Spider, koni shocks, bigger carb and drilled/slotted brakes
    to tune and hoon the mbz master race.

  13. #88
    So that actuator only moves the intake cam?

    So these schrick cams I have.. I posted the specs of them, how do they adjust the cams from stock in order to help performance? Are they causing more overlap? Trying to figure out how these cams, exhaust headers, and the rest of my stuff may work out.. no turbo at all?


    It seems like maybe removing the M111 engine, basically modifying it to act like a normal engine, is the best bet and "cheapest" in the long run

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gakz View Post
    So that actuator only moves the intake cam?

    So these schrick cams I have.. I posted the specs of them, how do they adjust the cams from stock in order to help performance? Are they causing more overlap? Trying to figure out how these cams, exhaust headers, and the rest of my stuff may work out.. no turbo at all?


    It seems like maybe removing the M111 engine, basically modifying it to act like a normal engine, is the best bet and "cheapest" in the long run
    what do you mean by normal?

    intake and exhaust mods improve flow. a better intake gets more air in so more boom, specifically a cold air intake gets cold and therefore denser air in for more boom. A ram air intake will have a similar but less drastic effect as boost. My friend has a ram air setup on his truck and it forces air in at 2 psi. A better exhaust removes back pressure so the exhaust gets out of the cylinders quicker and with less fuss. Cams controls when the valves open, how much they open and how long they stay open. this determines things like idle, mid-range and top end power. The kind of cam you have determine where your power is to a large degree. With regular cams the hotter the cam the more top end it has and the worse the low end and the idle. This is why race cams are not recommended for the road. VVT in it's different forms allows you to have the best of both worlds. Depending on how the VVT works you can have just variable timing or you can have variable everything. This lets you have a good idle and a good mid and top end cam all in one. The downside is it is complicated and expensive, and for tuning can be harder to work with. Something like VTEC or the VVT that we have is pretty crude and will only effect the timing and not for a large range. If you have a new car you can have much more control and if you have one of the newer multair fiat the cam is practical 100% variable. The cam is only one part of the equation though. A well tuned engine will have many mods working together. Bang for buck boost is the best way to get power especially in a street car because a high power NA engine will rev very high, have it all on the top end, and will not be very easy to drive in traffic. A good boosted engine will behave like an NA econobox engine when it's out of boost. Boosted cars also get better mpg assuming you aren't in boost all the of time.
    Completely mad.
    '99 C230K, intake and exhaust more on the way.
    '86 MKIV Escort RS Turbo, stock for now, chip and more boost on the way
    '75 Fiat 124 Spider, koni shocks, bigger carb and drilled/slotted brakes
    to tune and hoon the mbz master race.

  15. #90
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    Yep it only moves the intake 10 degrees(20 crank degrees when you talk about timing and overlap)

    I would imagine the shrick cams you have will have a slightly different in more than one aspect of lift,duration,timing etc...you would need to seek expect advice for suitablilty for turbo etc.

    I wonder if those shrick cams are suited to both types of M111( the external EGR and internal EGR...if you have fuel problems it might be the cams or do you have no ECU tuning after the install?.)

    When you say normal are you refering to an engine with no internal EGR?...if so then yes you need to remove some of the overlap to make it more suitable to turbo!
    Last edited by Pagz; 07-09-2011 at 03:13 PM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  16. #91
    When you say EGR, im guessin you are referring to the oil separator/vent that goes back to the airbox typically from the top of the valve cover?

    When I say normal, most other engines ive worked with do not have a magnetic cam adjuster on the front, controlled by the ECU. Maybe all the new engines these days do, but its a pain IMO and not "normal".

    I appreciate the concern zmatt in explaining how an engine works and how modifications work, but I know that. Point in my remarks was, how can we say for sure the affect cams have on the engine if, given the specs of the 'race cams' i have and no one knows if that makes the overlap worse.

  17. #92
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    EGR = exhaust gas recirculation. It's an emissions thing that generally hurts performance. In carb'ed engines I pull it off because you don't have to worry about pissing off the non existent ECU.

    Sorry about going overboard with the explanation i got ahead of myself. I know the difference conceptually from an NA sc and turbo cam but I can't tell which is which by looking at the specs.

    As for the cam adjuster, depends on the engine. Everyone has their own way of doing VVT. Honda is hydraulic using oil lines, Fiat is pneumatic etc etc. Because of patents and all everyone has to have their own way.
    Completely mad.
    '99 C230K, intake and exhaust more on the way.
    '86 MKIV Escort RS Turbo, stock for now, chip and more boost on the way
    '75 Fiat 124 Spider, koni shocks, bigger carb and drilled/slotted brakes
    to tune and hoon the mbz master race.

  18. #93
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    On any engine, EGR is to improve emissions by taking exhaust and feeding it back into the intake,this had been pretty standard practice at least since the early late 80's early 90's(mostly on diesels back then then) you will find alot of EGR engines are just like the M111 with internal EGR instead of the external valve and pipwork around to the intake plenum. having infinitly adjustable actuators on both cams would be much more ideal so that volumetric efficiency can be shifted based on RPM/load.

    Point in my remarks was, how can we say for sure the affect cams have on the engine if, given the specs of the 'race cams' i have and no one knows if that makes the overlap worse.
    You need to degree your engine or have it degree'd...speak with cam designers/builders...follow there recommendations...this is the best thing you could do...so do it =)
    Last edited by Pagz; 07-10-2011 at 01:10 PM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  19. #94
    What i'm sayin is the EGR you are referring to, the oil/vent on the valve cover? The one that feeds back into the intake box typically. You made it seem that its either internal/external dependent on engine year.
    Last edited by gakz; 07-10-2011 at 09:27 PM.

  20. #95
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    Please take a picture of where your talking about,if its off the cam cover than no thats not EGR.

    Its likely the different EGR systems are country emissions dependant,one is possibly better than the other.

    What i do not know for sure is the difference in cam timing between internal and external type...you need to evaluate your own individual system,you may find theres no cam timing diference at all and the external system suppliments the internal..you will find out when you degree it.

    This looks like EGR on an SLK.

    Last edited by Pagz; 07-10-2011 at 11:55 PM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  21. #96
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    This is M104 EGR valves above the exhaust manifolds

    Last edited by Pagz; 07-10-2011 at 11:59 PM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

  22. #97
    I dont have my engine with me but if memory serves I don't have anything like that gold-ish colored piece. That black piece, oil separator, is present but im fairly certain no gold piece that looks like the one shown is present

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