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Thread: best bang for buck

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    best bang for buck

    Before I came here there didn't seem to be anyone doing a lot of work on the W202's performance wise. Brabus, Klemann and Carlson gave up years ago and the consensus on mbworld was a chip, overpriced headers and a very conservative pulley from asp. It seems here there are some more industrious members who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty and experiment. So maybe you guys can give me advice. My long term goal is at least c43 parity, if i can do more then all the better. I don't think I can get there just with pumping the boost on the stock blower + bolt ons. It seems like I need to either swap in something bigger, or put a turbo or better blower on. I'm not exactly wealthy, but I'm not afraid to spend the money if I plan it out and do it right the first time. I'd rather not make expensive mistakes. I also believe in taking my time and accumulating the parts required and not rushing.

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    What are you starting with?
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    Senior Member horgantrevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denlasoul View Post
    What are you starting with?
    yes what have you
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    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    Guys - its got a stock blower,there is only one

    Best bang for buck would be save your pennies and buy a C43,there really not expensive and you can find yourself a cheap 5.4 to drop in it later. Sure turbo is an option but its a lot of work and there will be wasted money no matter how organized or slowly you do it. There is a reason why very little exists performance wise for the 202
    Last edited by Pagz; 06-05-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    Guys - its got a stock blower,there is only one

    Best bang for buck would be save your pennies and buy a C43,there really not expensive and you can find yourself a cheap 5.4 to drop in it later. Sure turbo is an option but its alot of work and there will be wasted money no matter how organized or slowly you do it. There is a reason there is a very limited amount of performance upgrades for the 202
    You can say that again. I totally agree with you. Don't waste your money and just get a C43.
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    Senior Member horgantrevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRE320 View Post
    You can say that again. I totally agree with you. Don't waste your money and just get a C43.

    best answer by far
    c36 ///AMG ,,, c240 v6 sport

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    Sorry, I filled out that I had a c230k in the registration. I thought it would stick that in the sidebar. It didn't. C43's are nice, but V8's a are heavy and I like the balance of the 4cyl in the chassis. I also like boost.

    Lets assume that I'm sticking with the C230k for personal preference reasons. What would be in your opinion, the best route?

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    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    Yes the c43 does feel a tad heavier than the smaller displacments,but your not exactly playing with a nimble supercar chassis.

    If you must keep the M111 and want equal or better performance than a c43, you have only one choice - go all out on either a turbo or better supercharger and spend 1 -2 years getting it working.
    Last edited by Pagz; 06-05-2011 at 09:29 PM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
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    Any particular reason it would take 1 -2 years other than funding reasons? If I had the money right now I reckon I could get the first stage of it going in about a month's time assuming there were no hiccups with getting the parts. Id imagine the tune and choosing the standalone would take awhile since very few have done this, but getting the hardware together shouldn't be too hard.
    http://www.vulcanturbo.com/Mercedesbenzmanifolds.html

    As long as I ran it on low boost the stock ecu would probably comply for the time being until i could get aem/haltech/motec/megasquirt etc going. The biggest challenge I see isn't fabing the turbo kit, I know a really good fabricator who loves this kind fo thing. It's the tune. The best tuning shop in my area does Nissans almost exclusively.

    Now if you meant 1-2 years before it was "done". Then yeah probably. But things like this are ongoing. No reason you cant drive it during all of this.
    Last edited by zmatt; 06-06-2011 at 03:30 AM.

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    Senior Member horgantrevor's Avatar
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    upgrade ecu remap for a little more power then change blower for more

    run the car on a higher octane petrol like we have as standard in europe 98 octane not i think 95 or 96 octane in america

    more power needs more air , fuel , better bang for buck
    c36 ///AMG ,,, c240 v6 sport

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    Can I really get 300hp with intake exhaust and pulley? The M45 is kinda puny and the asp pulley does 8.5 psi. Not much. Also the best i can get form the pump here is 93 octane, although we don't use RON in America, it's an average of RON and another standard so the numbers work out to be lower but 93 octane in the US works out to be about 98 in Europe. For comparison we call E85 96 octane that's about 110 for you guys.


    Anyways, back on topic. I was under the impression 300hp is out of what I can expect with the M45 s/c. I figured I would either have to upgrade the s/c or go turbo.

  12. #12
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    If time isnt a problem just go for it

    Mine didnt run smooth on stock ECU @ 5.5psi,it missed or knocked at some parts of part throttle closed loop but ran ok at WOT which was possibly just due to open loop , adding exhaust backpressure and cooler air needs more tuning than you would first think,especially with all the overlap.

    Is it a M45 or 62 on the M111?...I have no proof but i'd put money on super hot air and short SC life if you tried 300 out of it. If you want to stick with SC,which is more suited to that engine,i'd go with an efficient screw type rated for the flow you need,could be a trick to fit though.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
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    Thanks for the input. I will definitely need to do a standalone from the get go. It is an M45, not exactly a big s/c by any standards. Going off of 23K's results (I wouldn't go as far) I think a turbo will work with the engine just fine. he has crazy numbers and a great torque curve. I've been looking around ebay today and it looks like M111s and M104s can be had for really cheap. So I think I can make this easier on myself by buying a second engine and having it built for turbo and still drive my car. then when I am ready i can have it installed over one weekend. The local engine building shop has a crank dyno so assuming i can find someone willing to tune it I should be able to get it going no problem. Naturally, the second engine would be rebuilt before I did anything to it. Dealing with the driveline, am I right in assuming the 5gtronic can hold up no problem? I was under the impression these trannies were bullet proof, but it seems we have a thread for people with transmission failures.

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    Pagz = 23K,when club202 died I had a name change on most other forums so have chaged it here also!.
    Buying another engine,building and tuning prior to installation sounds ideal,you might want to build the external bits on your original one for fitment though.
    If you do go with the turbo setup spend some time on the Cam setup before tuning,degree the cams and speak with cam tuners for there opinion,you might/will want to remove some of the overlap.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    Pagz = 23K,when club202 died I had a name change on most other forums so have chaged it here also!.
    Buying another engine,building and tuning prior to installation sounds ideal,you might want to build the external bits on your original one for fitment though.
    If you do go with the turbo setup spend some time on the Cam setup before tuning,degree the cams and speak with cam tuners for there opinion,you might/will want to remove some of the overlap.
    Thanks for the advice. I had assumed since it's boosted stock that the m111 wouldn't have overlap. There is a pretty good engine shop in town. They mainly do American V8s, but they have done just about everything and do great work. I'll be working with them when the time comes to setup the transplant motor. I saw you have oversized pistons in your motor. Whats the reasoning behind this? I was always told that you want to lower the compression on a boosted engine, not raise it. Also, I know you run motec, I don't think I need such a powerful system for mine, it's not a race car or anything, any recommendations?

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    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    Np!,My M111 for instance uses a form or internal exhaust recirulation,that is - it
    spits some exhaust back up the intake on each cycle using overlap.
    Now i dont know for sure...but the M111's that have external exhaust recirculation
    where the exhaust is extracted above the exhaust manifold via small channels in the
    head to exhaust ports,through a valve and routed around to the intake are IMO likely to use a smaller cam
    overlap. A visit to a specialist cam company would be a good move!.

    A SC'd engine acts very much like a N/A engine....the reason turbo systems run low
    overlap is to avoid exhaust backpressure re-entering the camber!.

    I think the M111K has a 8.8:1 comp so its already suitable for boost!...the reason i have oversized pistons is because i have rebuilt it 3 times,larger OE pistons dont raise compression as they have a deaper pocket to compensate - I wont go over the whole story but the factory malhe pistons and rods are fine for at least 380hp so leave the bottom end,focus everything on how well you get the fuel/air in!...I suggest running stock split spray injectors with secondaries for best atmoisation in the lower rpm band,but if you dont at least buy an ecu capable of driving 8 injectors incase you change later. I ran motec because it has excellent support,was capable of running drive by wire and had plenty of tuning options for later,though this was years ago now,i see quite a few other aftermarket ecu's have similar features so there are definilty cheaper options just do the reasearch on what you need and what is on offer.
    The features you might want would be closed loop o2 for cruise,Boost control,DBW or idle control if you go with a normal TB,controllable inputs for aircon etc,controllable outputs for cam switching...because the M111 uses simple on/off solinoid you might have to use two outputs to give enough control so that the switching is load/rpm/fuel map - advance/retard based on cam position,motec offer cam control as an upgrade enable option but its really only nessasary on bmw vanos type cam control. an option would be to do away with the cam control and run an exhaust sprocket on the intake(one from older M104/m111's)...slot it for adjustment...that would do away with the complexity that really doesnt provide that much gains just a pain when tuning.

    You will have to retain the stock ECU for security and rpm on dash(run crank pickup in series with stock and aftermarket ecu,but make sure aftermarket ECU can bias the voltage to above 2V otherwise it will not start the car),the security doesnt let the car start if you remove to much from the stock ecu,so lengthen cables and mount the stock in the footwell and only remove the engine wiring from it.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    Np!,My M111 for instance uses a form or internal exhaust recirulation,that is - it
    spits some exhaust back up the intake on each cycle using overlap.
    Now i dont know for sure...but the M111's that have external exhaust recirculation
    where the exhaust is extracted above the exhaust manifold via small channels in the
    head to exhaust ports,through a valve and routed around to the intake are IMO likely to use a smaller cam
    overlap. A visit to a specialist cam company would be a good move!.
    Ah, so that's what that weird thing attached to the side of my airbox is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    A SC'd engine acts very much like a N/A engine....the reason turbo systems run low
    overlap is to avoid exhaust backpressure re-entering the camber!.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    I think the M111K has a 8.8:1 comp so its already suitable for boost!...the reason i have oversized pistons is because i have rebuilt it 3 times,larger OE pistons dont raise compression as they have a deaper pocket to compensate - I wont go over the whole story but the factory malhe pistons and rods are fine for at least 380hp so leave the bottom end,focus everything on how well you get the fuel/air in!...I suggest running stock split spray injectors with secondaries for best atmoisation in the lower rpm band,but if you dont at least buy an ecu capable of driving 8 injectors incase you change later. I ran motec because it has excellent support,was capable of running drive by wire and had plenty of tuning options for later,though this was years ago now,i see quite a few other aftermarket ecu's have similar features so there are definilty cheaper options just do the reasearch on what you need and what is on offer.
    So you are running two different sets of injectors, one for low rpm and another for high rpm. Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    The features you might want would be closed loop o2 for cruise,Boost control,DBW or idle control if you go with a normal TB,controllable inputs for aircon etc,controllable outputs for cam switching...because the M111 uses simple on/off solinoid you might have to use two outputs to give enough control so that the switching is load/rpm/fuel map - advance/retard based on cam position,motec offer cam control as an upgrade enable option but its really only nessasary on bmw vanos type cam control. an option would be to do away with the cam control and run an exhaust sprocket on the intake(one from older M104/m111's)...slot it for adjustment...that would do away with the complexity that really doesnt provide that much gains just a pain when tuning.
    I don't think I need itbs, probably just one tb on a manifold similar to yours. If I am keeping the stock ecu can't i just continue to run the HVAC controls through it, or is that going to be too confusing? Sounds like (this makes me shudder) VTECH. I agree, sounds like it's kind of pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pagz View Post
    You will have to retain the stock ECU for security and rpm on dash(run crank pickup in series with stock and aftermarket ecu,but make sure aftermarket ECU can bias the voltage to above 2V otherwise it will not start the car),the security doesnt let the car start if you remove to much from the stock ecu,so lengthen cables and mount the stock in the footwell and only remove the engine wiring from it.
    Thats kind of absurd, but it's a benz, par for the course I guess. At least I don't have to deal with L-jetronic like my buddy with the old SL.

  18. #18
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    The valve attached to the side of your air box is the bypass valve for the SC system,this stays open and circulates SC charge until boost is needed then closes when you need power,opens to vent pressure just like a BOV. Your SC clutch engages on loading and vehicle speed greater than about 5kph from memory.

    No im not running two sets of injectors,I ran low impedance split spray Evo 7 injectors but i wish i had ran two stage for better low end tuning. this setup is load based,not rpm,you can still run stock injectors through the whole rpm range at part throttle/part boost conditions.

    No you definilty dont need ITB's,But you will want drive by wire or a normal TB with Idle control. When you select AC you need the DBW or idle control to use compensation tables,this will need to be done with the new ECU.

    Honda engines are awsome Pitty most of them sound bad...you can displace the exhaust and intake notes with the right mods and make them sound ok-ish though
    The M111 cam control does provide some power gains,but i think things get all out of alighn when you poor loads of air and fuel in there,especially if you change the intake plenum and add loads of exhaust backpressure with turbo..Its possibley more effective to install two adjustable cams and tune them while on the dyno.

    The OE bosch ECU runs a 2v bias on the crank pickup,i think this is for noise purposes,as long as you can set your standalone to read above 2v you will be fine. you dont need to parallel the cam pickup,its only needed to time the engine sync.

    You could run a piggyback system,however i cant help you much with that. Might pay to speak with your local dyno tuners to get there idea's(go to at least two).
    Last edited by Pagz; 06-11-2011 at 01:26 AM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

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    My first car was a honda, but I grew out of it fast. I like torque.

    Luckily tonight is the weekly local car meet so hopefully I can get to talk with some of the tuners and see what they can do. i know the big shop in town wont touch it because it's german. When I bought the car I asked them what they could do and their response was "....ummm have you tried evosport? Your car is untuneable." I take that as laziness.

    The valve attached to the side of your air box is the bypass valve for the SC system,this stays open and circulates SC charge until boost is needed then closes when you need power,opens to vent pressure just like a BOV. Your SC clutch engages on loading and vehicle speed greater than about 5kph from memory.
    Ok, that was my first guess. If I were to do an air intake mod for my engine now, could I just replace it with a small BOV?

    No im not running two sets of injectors,I ran low impedance split spray Evo 7 injectors but i wish i had ran two stage for better low end tuning. this setup is load based,not rpm,you can still run stock injectors through the whole rpm range at part throttle/part boost conditions.
    Oh, dual mode, sorry when you said secondary I thought you meant a secondary set of injectors.


    No you definilty dont need ITB's,But you will want drive by wire or a normal TB with Idle control. When you select AC you need the DBW or idle control to use compensation tables,this will need to be done with the new ECU.
    Isn't the stock TB DBW? Or is it too puny for my purposes?

    Honda engines are awsome Pitty most of them sound bad...you can displace the exhaust and intake notes with the right mods and make them sound ok-ish though
    The M111 cam control does provide some power gains,but i think things get all out of alighn when you poor loads of air and fuel in there,especially if you change the intake plenum and add loads of exhaust backpressure with turbo..Its possibley more effective to install two adjustable cams and tune them while on the dyno.
    Few 4 bangers truly sound "good", just not enough pulses. I think I will go old school and toss out the variable cam altogether. I knwo a guy with a bunch of 190e's, should be easy to get what i need.

    The OE bosch ECU runs a 2v bias on the crank pickup,i think this is for noise purposes,as long as you can set your standalone to read above 2v you will be fine. you dont need to parallel the cam pickup,its only needed to time ignition.
    So all the stock ecu needs is power and the 2v line from the crank sensor and its set.

    You could run a piggyback system,however i cant help you much with that. Might pay to speak with your local dyno tuners to get there idea's(go to at least two).
    I've already looked at AEM, and they seem to have ecu's tailor made for models, and no benz support. This Haltech unit looks promising. They also happen to have their HQ here as well. I knew they had an office in town, but I just checked and their US HQ is 10 minutes from here.

  20. #20
    Senior Member horgantrevor's Avatar
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    ever engine can be tuned its an engine

    makers make the engine last they almost d-tune them to make sure they dont brake

    more air better spark more bang
    c36 ///AMG ,,, c240 v6 sport

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    Quote Originally Posted by horgantrevor View Post
    ever engine can be tuned its an engine

    makers make the engine last they almost d-tune them to make sure they dont brake

    more air better spark more bang

    lol yes, by untunable they meant nobody makes shit for them. Whereas there is a mountain of parts for an evo, and a google search will find multiple ones with 800+ horsepower. Such parts don't exist for a benz, even though the m111 probably has every bit as much potential. All parts must be custom made and you dont even have a basemap to go off of.

  22. #22
    You need to read up on a M111 build on 190rev.net, turbo M111.. intake manifold is untouched, uses just the same ol' 4 injectors in the stock spots. You don't need to do anything to the engine itself and you can expect to hit over 350hp/350tq. Make open the engine to rebuild it with all OEM parts... if that. Cam work doesn't need to happen, just a proper tune.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gakz View Post
    You need to read up on a M111 build on 190rev.net, turbo M111.. intake manifold is untouched, uses just the same ol' 4 injectors in the stock spots. You don't need to do anything to the engine itself and you can expect to hit over 350hp/350tq. Make open the engine to rebuild it with all OEM parts... if that. Cam work doesn't need to happen, just a proper tune.
    search is disabled for non-members. mind linking me?

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    Well I just got back form the local tuning shop and I am happy to announce that they said tuning the M111 with a haltech ecu will be no problem at all. I will have to use a flying loom because no plug and play harnesses are made (duh), but they said it was no problem, and apparently the crank sensor and tech issues aren't just mercedes problems. They say the newer Nissan Z's (which they had 4 of in the shop when I was there) have the same thing and most OBDII cars are like that. I don't know what the time line will be with this but I will be using the Haltech platinum sport 1000. When I get the ball rolling I will have a detailed thread. In the immediate future you can expect to see a thread with my new exhaust either this weekend or sometime next week.

  25. #25
    Moderator Pagz's Avatar
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    Sounds good!,You will need to leave everything bar the engine wiring harness pins in the original ECU..ie the CAN bus,positive/negative etc etc,it needs to send info to dash and security.

    You cannot replace the SC bypass with a BOV,because the bypass needs to vent a lot of air at low engine loads and draws air when the SC is disengaged,If you want a similar BOV noise,just vent the bypass to atmosphere and place a filter on it.

    I did mean secondary set of injectors,but as gakz said there is someone running large injectors in stock location with no problems. Gakz - can you supply a link for this build,im registered and could not find it last time you mentioned this,if you have a dyno plot it would be interesting to see how the bottom end looks!.

    Cam advance shouldnt be a problem as long as you advance/retard ignition/fuel (cant remember if it was fuel or ignition or both we advanced) to suit cam position,we tried it on load/rpm maps only which works but is not factory smooth,the switch points took time to tune smooth as oil temperature,rpm etc effect actuation speed,so you can end up advancing timing well before its advanced...you also want some hysteresis in there to avoid switching in and out while sitting on the switch points.
    Last edited by Pagz; 06-10-2011 at 03:27 PM.
    >>00 C43 Black w/birch Black. Immaculate
    >>99 C43 Silver w/CLK55 package
    >>99 S202 RED 250TD Daily.
    >>89 2.6 RED w/16vkit. POS
    >>Old Turbo 2.3 History >>Old Turbo 2.3 Video

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