best bang for buck

[gakz]

190rev.net link. Owner and builder is w201-16. It is in a DTM race car, engine is out of a 99 SLK230k.

I have a large amount of email correspondence with him, his english isn't the best but it is manageable. He doesn't respond often, but if you'd like I can go through some emails and post up some more details of the build

[gakz]

Your Haltech will need to control/intercept all Engine interaction because even something like unplugging the butterfly bypass valve causes the engine to go into limp mode



here is another thread on someone building an M111 engine, here

[gakz]

Hello!
My engine is stock.
I have only put on a turbo and mounted a ECU from DTA(S60pro).
If you use a bigger turbo you will get more power.
With a bigger pulley you got about 215-230hp.
I have a another 190E with a stock 230K engine. I'm thinking of a bigger pulley on that,but I have't find any, except kleemann. And I think that cost to much.
What info do you miss???

I know that some use an another ecu on the engine and make that work with the rest of the car.
I don't see the problem to do this. De only problem i see is to make the taco work.
I have the 16v DTM gearbox on my engine in the evo. The 6speed is on my next car. If you have the gearbox without wire it will be alot to fit.
I think youre box wil work. If the gearbox use ATF oil you shuld use a another oil. I use omega 690 on my car. The weakest point on youre drivline is the twomass flywheel.
I have customize a singelmass flywheel from a M102 engine. On my 190E with 230K engine and 6speed box will i try to use the twomass flywheel. I hope for 230-250hp in that one.
To connect the another ECO is easy.I dont know the size on the std. fuel nozzle, but i have 660ccm in the evo.
I dont know how much power the std ecu can handle. The org MAP-sensor and ECU may handle 230-250hp. But i'm not sure.

my 6speed box have one wire and one shifting rod in metal.
w201,w202 +++ have 4 shifting rod in metal.
On my evo I have singelmass flywheel and a "DTM" getrag box. I have 350hp and 525nm at the wheels(about 400hp and 575nm in the engine).
That engine have a 19T turbo, DTA s60Pro ecu and 660ccm injectors.
All Sensors like MAP,TPS +++ use 5v from ECU

You can use oem sensors and injectors. But there is not many sensors on that engine.
You can use wathertemp sensor(i have chage on one engine,but use the org on my evo), trigger, injectors and lambdasonde.
I don't know much about the std. map-sensor, but I think you need to change this & airtemp.sensor and TPS. Maybe you can use the std.TPS, but I change mine.
Your engine have triggerwheel(60-2) on the flywheel.
Crankshaftsensor is triggersensor.
You can use camsensor, but you don't need it. You can control the vanos with the new EFI.

Airtempsensor mey be in the airmass sensor.
TPS is to Throttle.
Lambdasond is oxygensensensor. Is in the exhaustpipe in front of the kat.
Vanos is adjustable timing on the camshaft(inlet).

In my evo I use turbo, not kompressor.
I use chrankshaft pulley from a engine without kompressor so I have less weight om moving parts.

Regards to making another turbo manifold:

you can look at ebay and find some parts to a nissan+++ and make that to fit youre engine.
I don't want to make a new one. It was a lot of work. I did use over 1000euro only in parts.

know the last m111 is different.
I have one 99 and one 01 engine

I give all respect where it is due to Mr Tor Anton. He did the work on the build, here is the info from emails (more detailed than his member thread). Although it doesn't tell us everything, it is more than enough to get this build done.... It is truly a shame that more people haven't built this engine


If you read some of it you'll catch he has 2 M111 engines that he has slightly modified. The 350whp one is in the DTM car, and he has another 200-ish hp in a 190E

[zmatt]

Sounds good!,You will need to leave everything bar the engine wiring harness pins in the original ECU..ie the CAN bus,positive/negative etc etc,it needs to send info to dash and security.

You cannot replace the SC bypass with a BOV,because the bypass needs to vent a lot of air at low engine loads and draws air when the SC is disengaged,If you want a similar BOV noise,just vent the bypass to atmosphere and place a filter on it.

I did mean secondary set of injectors,but as gakz said there is someone running large injectors in stock location with no problems. Gakz - can you supply a link for this build,im registered and could not find it last time you mentioned this,if you have a dyno plot it would be interesting to see how the bottom end looks!.

Cam advance shouldnt be a problem as long as you advance/retard ignition/fuel (cant remember if it was fuel or ignition or both we advanced) to suit cam position,we tried it on load/rpm maps only which works but is not factory smooth,the switch points took time to tune smooth as oil temperature,rpm etc effect actuation speed,so you can end up advancing timing well before its advanced...you also want some hysteresis in there to avoid switching in and out while sitting on the switch points.

I don't see why I would still need the bypass valve once the supercharger has been removed. And wouldn't a bov be necessary for a 300hp+ turbo build? I don't want any surge. I don't plan to twincharge this thing so isn't recirculation unnecessary?


@Gakz, wow thanks for all the data, it's really late over here, so i don't have the time/energy to read over it all. I will in the morning and rely it to my tuner. The more info the better.

I totally agree, I wish more people were tuning these engines. it's kind of a shame that far inferior cars get it much easier in the way of aftermarket than w202's. Hopefully we can help change that.




EDIT: Also is my transmission going to hold up? I've read and been told the 5Gtronic might as well be made of adamantium, but it seems several members have had them fail. Should I look into a manual swap? I'm in the USA, so I don't know how easy it will be to source a manual transmission, they just don't sell them here.

[Pagz]

Gakz,I didnt realise that was a race car...its functionality and tuning characteristics are completely different to a road car in alot of ways...im not sure where to start.

Sorry,when you asked if you could replace the bypass with a BOV i assumed you were to continue with the SC system. If you go turbo than yes you will need a BOV ,the VDO Bypass becomes obsolete. Match your turbo properly and you should have very little/no surge.

Are you planning to go stand alone with teh haltech?...(I wonder if you will only be able to go piggyback with the auto trans??)

If you go stand alone:
Along with paralelling your trigger,You will want to keep the stock water temp sensor wired to the bosch ecu,so you still get temp up on the dash.

Contrary to above,Your tuners will likely recommend you use your original Cam pickup for SYNC and crank pickup for trigger,it will work best for you.

Drive by wire has benifits especially idle control and aircon loading so discuss that with your tuners,if your tuners can utilise your original one or one from a larger engine if you change the intake plenum at some stage,that way you can also use your original potentio meter on your accelerator cable.

[zmatt]

No way, I'm going turbo. There just isn't enough potential in the supercharger. Yes the haltech is standalone, naturally i am keeping the stock ecu for tach and security reasons. Hal, my tuner, explained to me that this isn't a benz thing, a lot of newer cars are this way so he expected it.

[Pagz]

Excellent!,Did they mention anything about the trans control unit and how or even if you will need interface if you go stand alone?(would be intersting to know as i have only seen one m111 auto with turbo and it was piggyback)

[zmatt]

Excellent!,Did they mention anything about the trans control unit and how or even if you will need interface if you go stand alone?(would be intersting to know as i have only seen one m111 auto with turbo and it was piggyback)

he said he would research the wiring to see what we would need to do, but I definitely will be using a flying loom, which is an uncut loom of wires so i can custom fit it. I knwo that the 5G is computer controlled and it is a "lerning" type, but is it the ecu that does it or does it have it's own computer?

[Pagz]

Im not sure which does the learning,it could be a bit of both!,there will be a heap of infomation sent between the TCU and ECU for cruise control,gear selection and changing etc so it will intersting to see how they get around that!. I would imagine either way they will have to make it so the bosch ECU still thinks and recieves information as if it was still in control.

[gakz]

In regards to what pagz said, tricking the OEM ecu into thinking it still receives the signal... There are piggybacks that do that, I know one called greddy ultimate or something similar

[zmatt]

Im not sure which does the learning,it could be a bit of both!,there will be a heap of infomation sent between the TCU and ECU for cruise control,gear selection and changing etc so it will intersting to see how they get around that!. I would imagine either way they will have to make it so the bosch ECU still thinks and recieves information as if it was still in control.

Something tells me the stock ecu will have to interface somehow to keep it all together.


@Gakz, a piggback modifies and expands a stock ecu, while a standalone handles the functions itself. Some of these newer cars (our cars, Nissans and I'm sure many more) have systems that don't play nice with a 100% switch over to a standalone ecu. This may be intentional or not, but in order for the freaking car to start and some other things to work. Anyways, looks like I will be switching out many sensors and making a change to the engine that merely hacking the ecu with a piggyback isn't enough for. Besides the resolution the haltechs have for tuning it quite high so I will manage a better tune than with a piggyback.

[gakz]

You don't need to swap out a lot of sensors... Air/Maf sensor and a few others is all that is needed. Not all piggy backs are the same. Like I said, if you do not do a complete ECU swap you will need one, like the one i mentioned ( a piggyback style), that takes the signal and sends a signal with stock parameters back to the ECU... while the actual stuff like injectors get a different signal.

[zmatt]

You don't need to swap out a lot of sensors... Air/Maf sensor and a few others is all that is needed.

Sorry I consider that a lot.

ot all piggy backs are the same. Like I said, if you do not do a complete ECU swap you will need one, like the one i mentioned ( a piggyback style), that takes the signal and sends a signal with stock parameters back to the ECU... while the actual stuff like injectors get a different signal.

Well I wont sit here and rpetend to know every system in the world so fair enough.

[zmatt]

Just a thought, do you think it would be worthwhile to switch to a manual gearbox? How easy would it be to get one in the USA? and how easy is the swap?

[Pagz]

Switching to manual would save on any TCU problems....but its out of the frying pan into the flames =)

The haltech might have some digital outputs which could be configured to pass engine info onto the original TCU or ECU depending on how they comunitcate(hopefully not via CAN between ECU and TCU so if it is than you will have to do it through ECU)...

Im not sure if yours will be the same being auto/TCU but i found you can remove the entire engine loom - Cam sync,sc clutch,sc bypass,02,ignition,injectors,knock,mas,trigger from the original bosch ecu and while it has all the alarm codes when checked with a scanner,it does not bring up any dash lights and does allow the starter motor and fuel pump to engage and start the motor once you have the standalone ready(security has control over pump and starter)...but if you remove pretty much any remaining wires from the bosch ecu its all dead including the dash!.

In terms of sensors its straight forward,If you retain the DBW(has TPS in it) you will only need MAP,Air temp and possibly water temp(if you cannot utilise the stock temp,there is room to install another beside the if you have to)

Are you really sure you dont want to sell and buy the 43? =)

[zmatt]

Switching to manual would save on any TCU problems....but its out of the frying pan into the flames =)

Right, then I'll stick with the auto, it's been good to me so far anyways.

The haltech might have some digital outputs which could be configured to pass engine info onto the original TCU or ECU depending on how they comunitcate(hopefully not via CAN between ECU and TCU so if it is than you will have to do it through ECU)...

nice idea, i'll have to see what the tuner says.

Im not sure if yours will be the same being auto/TCU but i found you can remove the entire engine loom - Cam sync,sc clutch,sc bypass,02,ignition,injectors,knock,mas,trigger from the original bosch ecu and while it has all the alarm codes when checked with a scanner,it does not bring up any dash lights and does allow the starter motor and fuel pump to engage and start the motor once you have the standalone ready(security has control over pump and starter)...but if you remove pretty much any remaining wires from the bosch ecu its all dead including the dash!.

That's what I'm thinking. Keeping the bosch ecu to talk with security and possibly the tcu (still need to figure that out) and leaving the engine in the capable hands of the haltech.

Are you really sure you dont want to sell and buy the 43? =)

lol, wheres the fun in that? This is how I see it. this car will in the end be cheaper (insurance on AMGs for a 20 something is a bitch and interestingly they don't seem to care if your car has been boosted :V), lighter, more nimble, more tunable, and faster than a c43, or a C55 at that. I can have two different engine maps saved, one for power and one for econ, determined by AF mix and boost so i can get the econ of the NA 2.3 and I can get all my boost goodness in one car. Also since I will be replacing the plastic piping and some of the electronics with better ones this car may very well be more reliable than stock. granted, if I thrash it it wont be, but in my experience the weak point of these cars drivetrain wise have always been the cheap electronics. I plan on basically putting in a new motor with better electronics. The end result should be better in every way.

[gakz]

pagz, you sayin you removed all those sensors from the oem ecu and controlled them by a different unit and just kept the security/starter/pump (fuel pump?)

[zmatt]

pagz, you sayin you removed all those sensors from the oem ecu and controlled them by a different unit and just kept the security/starter/pump (fuel pump?)

From what I have been told this is exactly what you have to do with most modern cars. I explained to my tuner that you had to keep the oem ecu so you could start the car with security and he said yeah they have to do that for just about everything. He said he would relocate the stock ecu to the floorboards out of the way. I think the only way you can truly go standalone is to rpelace everything that interacts with the security system, this means a new fuel pump and starter, ones that can be controlled by the standalone and a new gauge system, for the sake of ease, probably one of the LCD haltech units. Badass as they are, this conversion would leave me without the fuel system lockout, central locking and likely the car alarm. The LCD display also looks ricey on a street car.

[gakz]

you can likely re-do that stuff... the central locking (for example) on my SLK is all pneumatic, the pump/switches would just need to get power

[Pagz]

pagz, you sayin you removed all those sensors from the oem ecu and controlled them by a different unit and just kept the security/starter/pump (fuel pump?)

Correct!...though if i recall ,we wired it so my security and stand alone had control of the fuel pump relay(they were in series).

zmatt - your right! ...Definitly keep as much of the stock system as possible there is absolutly no reason to bypass or modify a perfectly working security,ignition or locking system for a stand alone setup =)

lol, wheres the fun in that? This is how I see it. this car will in the end be cheaper (insurance on AMGs for a 20 something is a bitch and interestingly they don't seem to care if your car has been boosted :V), lighter, more nimble, more tunable, and faster than a c43, or a C55 at that. I can have two different engine maps saved, one for power and one for econ, determined by AF mix and boost so i can get the econ of the NA 2.3 and I can get all my boost goodness in one car. Also since I will be replacing the plastic piping and some of the electronics with better ones this car may very well be more reliable than stock. granted, if I thrash it it wont be, but in my experience the weak point of these cars drivetrain wise have always been the cheap electronics. I plan on basically putting in a new motor with better electronics. The end result should be better in every way.

Wish i still had that motivation!

I tested a 208 clk55 today,it hauled^^ ,bit of a tank in the corners...

[zmatt]

Correct!...though if i recall ,we wired it so my security and stand alone had control of the fuel pump relay(they were in series).

zmatt - your right! ...Definitly keep as much of the stock system as possible there is absolutly no reason to bypass or modify a perfectly working security,ignition or locking system for a stand alone setup =)

In America we have a saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it. A good mantra, but i think some of my countrymen took it too much to heart, that's why the trans am was built on the same platform for 40 years......

Wish i still had that motivation!

I tested a 208 clk55 today,it hauled^^ ,bit of a tank in the corners...

If it's any consolation seeing your car domain page inspired me to do the same. I hate being told something can't be done and I love working on shit (my other car is a fiat so yeah). I'm a poster on MBworld and the 202 owners didn't have much advice in the way of performance. They were either content with stock or said get a C43. That's not good enough for me. Not when I see tools getting cheap ass turbo kits for B series civics. Or when I know a guy who has a 650hp TT 350Z. Why can't I have some fun too? Ain't no love for Deustchland?

The 55 is a great engine, but V8s are nose heavy. Kinda ruins the dynamics in these cars imo. I like the balance of the 230 and I have had some nice slides before.

[zmatt]

Just getting more info together....Pagz, I've been reading your car domain more. About engine work aside from rebuilding like new is it worthwhile to do any engine work? I saw you had some headaches with JE pistons and also had a port and polish. There were also some oil lines run through the valve cover. Could you elaborate on this? I have been told over and over the m111s are built like tanks and can take a lot with stock internals. Do you agree? Also, to make turboing easier, I'm thinking getting the redline higher than 5800 is also smart. Aside from cams what does the engine need?

[Pagz]

Thanks!, Yes lots of headachs =)
The only oil line that came close to the valve cover was the turbo oil feed,which came up from the block,through oil temp/pressure sensors mounted on the front of the head and across to the turbo. later i redesigned this so that it went straight to the turbo,then repositioned the sensors on my oil cooler/thermostat.
The bottom end does not need any work,i would investigate cam timing for turbo setups and change as nessassary,dont bother porting it unless you end up having to remove the head for some other reason. we didnt seem to have any trouble raising the RPM to 6300,but if you go higher be careful of float,im not sure how well the hydrolic lifters handle this either.

[zmatt]

Thanks!, Yes lots of headachs =)
The only oil line that came close to the valve cover was the turbo oil feed,which came up from the block,through oil temp/pressure sensors mounted on the front of the head and across to the turbo. later i redesigned this so that it went straight to the turbo,then repositioned the sensors on my oil cooler/thermostat.
The bottom end does not need any work,i would investigate cam timing for turbo setups and change as nessassary,dont bother porting it unless you end up having to remove the head for some other reason. we didnt seem to have any trouble raising the RPM to 6300,but if you go higher be careful of float,im not sure how well the hydrolic lifters handle this either.

The current plans are to buy a 2nd engine and rebuild it as new so I have a clean slate to work with so I will be opening it up anyways. I have 146k miles on this motor. I'd rather not push my luck. I may have them double check the transmission too. I thought these things were impossible to kill, but some of the posts here have scared me regarding the 5G. Regarding rpm, the shop that will do the tuning will also do the engine rebuild so I will talk to them about that. Maybe it needs a hotter cam who knows. The previous MB I4 did something like 7k on the cossie, and while this is boosted, 7k would still be nice simply to broaden the choices of turbo. Tomorrow i start my new job which pays a bit more than the last one. So after a few paychecks i can get the ball rolling and more from research to real work. Thanks for the help. It's great to have someone who has done this to consult.

[zmatt]

Talked to my tuner today. he was in contact with haltech and they basically reinforced what he already said. The m111 is no problem, we will have to have a flying loom harness because there is no plug and play but that's not a big deal. I'm going to have a baseline dyno done two weeks from now. It will be interesting to see how many horses she has lost. Also, I'm thinking about $5k USD to get the turbo going and in the car not including other mods such as suspension etc. Does this seem realistic?