C43 Exhaust Stage I

[CKlasse]

A nice gentleman with his C43 from North Carolina arrived at BMS shop at around noon on Friday, Oct 10. Yes, finally, the first test bed for the system is here! For the next couple weeks, we will be developing a stage I & Stage II exhaust system for a C43 lineup. Jeff's car is next!



And the hardest part of this project began: R&D

The goal: 15-20 HP increase
The priorities: performance, emission legality, style, and of course sound
Perimeter: Downpipe Back



And after few hours of planning (and some arguing), the few of us agree on the 1st setup we will do for the 1st dyno. Here is the details....

I. In place of those OEM catalytic converters, there will be dual BMS Spec'd Hi Flow Cat. These CATs are tappered and angle to maximize air flow distribution. Keep in mind that most OEM cats are only 70% effective. The dual 2.5 cats will be complemented by Stainless Steel Heat Shield. If one choose to go full racing, we will place a Xpiped muffler instead of the CATs here.

II. In place of the OEM resonator, there will be dual staggered setup Magna Packs. These have smooth core and the most densed in the market. They do have stainless mesh wrapping the core. In short, AIR will flow through the core, while the sound will disperse without any turbulances/restriction. OEM resonator (oval) creates turbulances.

III. Custom fabricated high flow Y to 3" Mandrel to BMS TURBINE SYSTEM. This is where things are getting techy. The Turbine is a new technology. It is designed to create vacuum in the rear, hence the suction on the front. It cools down and increases flow. Think JET Turbine - same concept. There are so much details on this, let me know if you guys are interested.

IV. Stainless double wall dual tips. Same size as the OEM. We can also put FABULOUS sytle oval tips. Its all about preference!

I realize that this is a lot of talks without pictures. Please be patient.. we are having a blast here, and will share with you all as soon as the ready system is done! Meanwhile, enjoy a few teaser pictures..........




Bad angle - turbulance in the air flow, restriction, and excessive heat point!!


Mr. Conrad Jones is making his point to the rest of the team. yes yes, we got your point.


Few R&D stuffs. What fits and what not.


To Be Dual or to be single. And that's the question!


The misterious yet effective turbine!

STAY TUNE FOR UPDATES....
PS.. Jeff, you might go for stage II...

[Denlasoul]

Very interesting development CKlasse. I am sure this will shed more light to some of us.

Good luck with the project.

DLS

[MrSpace]

do you have a performace exhaust for C230K ?

Etienne

[98c43amg]

I look forward to the end result. Also looking forward to see what Stage 2 is too.

Hope cost of the end result isn't too high. My mechanic recommends a freer flowing exhaust. Would love to get a system.

Say, different topic. You know anything about Jeeps? I just bought one [a '97 Wrangler 4.0L] and see it needs a better exhaust. There's a couple of manufacturers of Headers and Cat-back systems. Wondering if you recommended one.

Anyway, really looking forward to more posts as this evolves.

[WeatherMan]

Can't wait for the results!! Don't forget the sound files, too...

[Tump43]

CKlasse --

Great Pictures! Great Information! I can't wait till the system is finished, so I can put it on my car.


I'm glad you got a C43 to your shop so quick! The turbine muffler looks very cool!

[speedybenz]

Do the perforations on the core of the turbine muffler extend into the core. Or is the core smooth?

Jeff

[CKlasse]

do you have a performace exhaust for C230K ?

yes.

Jeeps? I just bought one [a '97 Wrangler 4.0L]

Trucks and SUV are fun to work on... You gain more hp from upgrading their exhaust systems compare to most cars. I know few cat back systems that works well... or I can simply tell you the best setup and you can find a good local exhaust shop to do it for you. Your choice!

The turbine muffler looks very cool!

Mark, Thanks so much for being patient. C43 has been one of the toughest ones to figure out. It's been a fun challenge. We tried out two different Magna Pack today and found the best ones for you.. I'll post picts tomorrow!

Do the perforations on the core of the turbine muffler extend into the core. Or is the core smooth?

Yes, and they are 40degree angled to create the swirl/tornado effect. The rear half of the core then smooth out and is tappered. It's pretty cool concept and design. We have always used this on big generators, 8.1 L V8, V10, to cool down and increase flow. By doing this, you have better combustion and lower temp - MORE POWER. AMG 4.3L V8 will be one of the first of our systems that utilize these turbines. I ll try to take a pict of the core.

Regards

[C280Sportster]

Originally posted by 98c43amg
I look forward to the end result. Also looking forward to see what Stage 2 is too.

I'd like to know what the power gain is.

I also have a question: is it possible to use a Y pipe and split to two mufflers (some honda's do this).

A lot of newer cars, that are much weaker than the C43, are doing this...probably for looks.

Even if there is no gain, twin mufflers out of the back would look fantastic on a car like the C43.

[CKlasse]

I decided to open another thread to ease the DL time since there are tons of pictures. Mods, please amend this if I made any mistakes.

http://www.club202.com/forums/showth...&threadid=1711

C280.. you can always do that.. there is a trick to it to keep the sound equally divided. Most of the VW or Honda dual tips aren't too good. YES, those are strictly for looks!

[mis-u-jerr]

Thanks for all the great info. Where is that burned spot, specifically? Looks like it is on the downpipe? I wanna check mine!

[CKlasse]

Originally posted by mis-u-jerr
Thanks for all the great info. Where is that burned spot, specifically? Looks like it is on the downpipe? I wanna check mine!

Yes, its after the Driver side precat. I found the same burn spot on another C43. It might be common. Let me know if you find it on yours too.

[98c43amg]

Originally posted by C280Sportster

I also have a question: is it possible to use a Y pipe and split to two mufflers (some honda's do this).

...though I noticed something one day that I hadn't ever noticed before.. The battery in the trunk sits in the spot the muffler sits at on the other side. I'm not sure where a muffler would go on the right rear .

[CKlasse]

Very simple. Put two straight through muffler where your single resonator is and do dual 2.5 piping to the tips. Same result!

[98c43amg]

Originally posted by CKlasse

Trucks and SUV are fun to work on... You gain more hp from upgrading their exhaust systems compare to most cars. I know few cat back systems that works well... or I can simply tell you the best setup and you can find a good local exhaust shop to do it for you. Your choice!

I followed the other thread. Terrific. It boggles my mind how you can reproduce all the unique bends you have to make for each car.

I know I'm pretty off topic. Let me know if I should move to a private message or direct e-mail. But the Jeep...

The Jeep cat-back systems I see are pretty cheap (under $300), so I'm imagining it might be less trouble getting a kit. Tell me if I'm wrong though and if it's easy enough to build and equivalent [or better] custom system (with your guidance of course! ).

The one's I saw and interested me are:
- Banks Stinger System
- Borla Cat-Back System
- Pacesetter TFX Performance Kat-Back Systems
- Gibson Swept Side Exhaust (though I heard I might get more exhaust fumes with a side exit)
- _Dynomax Cat-Back Exhaust (or just the Dynomax Ultra-Flow Muffler w/a custom pipe?)

I was surprised how much more Headers are. But what do I know. The ones I saw that interest me are:
- Banks TorqueTube® System
- Borla Header
- Gibson GP400
- Pacesetter Headers (actually, this one's pretty cheap in comparison)

I know that's a lot of names I'm throw'n at'chya, but it sure seems like you'd have an informed opinion that I can trust.

Anyway thanx a lot for your time in offering your opinion on this. An I =know= where to go if I'm going to update my C43's exhaust. (especially if my stock AMG exhaust starts rattling again ... you know this is my 4th exhaust? That's a story in itself; for another time.)

Best Regards,
Steve

[mis-u-jerr]

Originally posted by CKlasse
Yes, its after the Driver side precat. I found the same burn spot on another C43. It might be common. Let me know if you find it on yours too.

Thanks, I'll look tomorrow.
Another q - who don't you just do straight dual exhaust, rather than tying them back together?
Thanks for the info!
Greg.

[CKlasse]

Originally posted by mis-u-jerr
Thanks, I'll look tomorrow.
Another q - who don't you just do straight dual exhaust, rather than tying them back together?
Thanks for the info!
Greg.

Greg,

There is no much room to work with underneath the C43. I worked on CLK430 before, and The C43 is twice as hard. Performance wise, it is better to equalize pressure from both manifold anyhow.

[mis-u-jerr]

Hey thanks for the answer. When I 1st got mine, I talked to Rob (forgot last name) who was in charge of AMG for MBUSA. He said that they had never found quite the right combo to do dualies on a C43. I always thought that it was a cost issue...

I was away all weekend, so I'll look at the exhaust tomorrow (really! )

Originally posted by CKlasse
Greg,

There is no much room to work with underneath the C43. I worked on CLK430 before, and The C43 is twice as hard. Performance wise, it is better to equalize pressure from both manifold anyhow.

[CKlasse]

Originally posted by 98c43amg
I followed the other thread. Terrific. It boggles my mind how you can reproduce all the unique bends you have to make for each car.

It takes time. We actually build systems on the cars themselves. Many generic or even brand name exhaust system are built on jigs -- which cause burnt fender, rattling, etc etc etc. Quantity = No Quality!

The Jeep cat-back systems I see are pretty cheap (under $300), so I'm imagining it might be less trouble getting a kit. Tell me if I'm wrong though and if it's easy enough to build and equivalent [or better] custom system (with your guidance of course! ).

The one's I saw and interested me are:
- Banks Stinger System
- Borla Cat-Back System
- Pacesetter TFX Performance Kat-Back Systems
- Gibson Swept Side Exhaust (though I heard I might get more exhaust fumes with a side exit)
- _Dynomax Cat-Back Exhaust (or just the Dynomax Ultra-Flow Muffler w/a custom pipe?)

I was surprised how much more Headers are. But what do I know. The ones I saw that interest me are:
- Banks TorqueTube® System
- Borla Header
- Gibson GP400
- Pacesetter Headers (actually, this one's pretty cheap in comparison)

I like magnaflow cat back and Gibson cat back systems. Both of these not only open up your exhaust, but also improve your mileage. Borla is prolly the next fav. but their pricing is abit steep - they do prioritize style afterall.

There are tons of brandnames in the market, But Gibson and Magnaflow are the most we seen so far in the shop. If popularity counts, you got your answer.

you know this is my 4th exhaust? That's a story in itself; for another time.)

Best Regards,
Steve

4th exhaust in how long? Exhaust hardly goes bad. Although bad installation & handling play important role. That's why I am very nervous about sending the C43 system to Marc' shop for installation. Good thing, the shop and Marc have been real good with communication. Conrad, the guru, himself has been talking to them about the installation.

[98c43amg]

Thanx for the informed response on the Jeep exhaust. Very much appreciated.

Regarding my C43 exhaust, here's what happened:

- Bought the car in May of '99. Exhaust was fine; never thought about it.

- June of 2001 some g-damn stupid mutha f*k'n sob rear-ends me while I was stopped at a light.

He was =hard= on his breaks, trying to change out of my lane into the lane to the left of me. Since his car was in total dive, the left side of the bumper and exhaust pretty much took up the whole impact. Not a millimiter of push to the body.

BTW, great side note on this at the end...

- I get the exhaust replaced by insurance from a Mercedes body shop. OEM AMG exhaust. Exhaust #2 on the car.

- Within about 6 months, there's a =serious= rattling going on when my car's in gear and stopped. Then there's a bad buzz/rattle/resonance at around 1700rpm (or maybe it was 2700 rpm). As at that time my car had been in and out of the shop for tranni, seat bladder, and other assorted issues, I mentioned the exhaust rattle to my service advisor.

I thought it was a clamp. They diagnosed it sitting in the car with me, and under the car. They determined the rattling was definitely coming from =within= the exhaust, behind the left rear wheel.

The head tech told me and my service advisor "well, Mercedes offers one year warranty on replacement parts ... we'll change it for you." I would have went back to the body shop for the other MB dealership I had the original work done at, but they said don't bother, no problem.

Fine with me. So they replaced the exhaust again with another OEM AMG exhaust. Exhaust #3 in the beginning of 2002.

Fine for close to a year. Too bad for MB that in less than a year later ... rattling =again=! Well almost too bad for me! The dealership didn't want to believe it went bad again. But sure enough after checking, yep. Same problem from within the exhaust.

...HOWEVER... I was told Mercedes will =not= warranty a replacement part replaced under a replacement parts warranty (am I making sense? ...they won't warranty the warranty replacement part; only if you had paid for it, like I [actually, insurance] did the 1st time). ...that's right. I nearly got stuck with having to pay for having to replace a part that had become defective two previous times before on my car. ...Not too good a track record, and I was very reluctant to go with the AMG exhaust if I was going to have to pay for it.

It all turned out good though, as since I had probably made the dealership about $5000 worth of warranty work on my car (if not more), and my car was still under warranty, they stated "oh, but your car's still under warranty; we'll change it out under that."

So, OEM AMG Exhaust #4 was put on my car, either the end of 2002 or beginning of 2003 (I forget ... but it's not like I'll ever be able to get it replaced under warranty again! :ermm: ) .

Still good so far. Though now that I saw your C43 Stage I project, I have my fingers crossed that it =will= fail again, so I have a reason to buy your kit sooner than later!

Anyway as if this wasn't long enough ... the side note about the guy who hit my car... (It's worth reading, I swear)

The guy driving the car was a driver for a car service, driving his boss's lexus or accura (I forget), driving some "out-of-state" under-aged girl somewhere (probably to have nudy pictures shot by the looks of it). He had no valid registration to the car or insurance documents. Nothing. Wife called the cops immediatly. Luckily an unmarked car came, then a marked car. The driver stayed there the whole time. Finally, after a while, when I'm parked next to the guy who hit me and he's in his car, I knew it was time to tell my wife to get out of our car and run across the parking lot, when the officer, with gun drawn and arms straight down towards the ground, goes to the rear of the driver's door, and orders the driver out. He was arrested for driving a stolen vehicle... his boss' car. He must have had no idea else he would have ran! Even the cop was saying that later. And the under-aged girl was just sitting in the passenger seat sobbing her eyes out.

Pretty shocking though when, in such a quick turn of events, a cop's arresting someone gun drawn about 5 feet away with no apparent tension to lead up to the event.
:bandit:

[CKlasse]

Steve,

Now I dont feel as bad about my alternator. Those are some interesting experience you have. BTW, there is a 'flange looking' ring that comes with the AMG stock muffler. It sits right inside the inlet of the muffler. It is possible that MB certified tech forgot about this part. Some MB dealerships sends their exhaust job to a certified 3rd party. This may be the case.

Nevertheless, the fact that you are still driving the C43 proves how this car grows in people!

Today, I drove the C43 with the stage I. This time the ECM has been adapted. The owner, a Mercedes Benz master Tech over at the Murray's MB of Denver who said "It's stupid to try upgrading an AMG!," is going crazy over how much HP the car gained.

Today, he is sending his friend's twin turbo C36, also a tech at Murray's MB, to us to do his turbo back system.

hmmm.. I can see a whole new line up of exhaust system for AMG series.

[speedybenz]

Ken,

Thats great stuff. Can't wait to test out one of your systems and kick some BMW M3 butt.

Jeff

[CKlasse]

Jeff,

I have even better stuffs for you. Call me

[98c43amg]

Originally posted by CKlasse
there is a 'flange looking' ring that comes with the AMG stock muffler. It sits right inside the inlet of the muffler. It is possible that MB certified tech forgot about this part. Some MB dealerships sends their exhaust job to a certified 3rd party. This may be the case.

I could believe that was forgotten about. After all, the time exhaust #3 was put on at my local dealership, they fogot to tighten the exaust up in the front. Within a week I was driving around with a loud exhaust leak; I had to pick up my mother from the airport with the car sounding like it had open headers. And the dealership refused to believe that was the case ... until they got under the car. You can't imagine the shoddy service I've seen over the years.

Nevertheless, the fact that you are still driving the C43 proves how this car grows in people!

If only with it had a manual transmission. I can have one for $20K. I'd only be willing to pay about $6K or $7K. If the new S4 ever comes with the in-dash DVD navigation, I'll probaly be trading my C43 in for it. (I'm not about to buy a new car w/o it after having Steve K. [MBenzNL] come put one in my old car )

Say, I noticed you'd mentioned something about having your heads done on the other thread. What was done and for how much?

I'm interested in having them ported and polished, but I was told that would cost me about $6K. Too steep for the returns IMO if that's the case -- rather spend a little more for an HPS supercharger; or a lot more for a Kleemann.

Additionally, speedybenz and I have been in discussions about the performance benefits we could recognize with a 7K redline, especially if coupled with an increase in the rear diff gear ratio. Should a 7K redline be possible by someone who can re-code the electronics, one thing I worry about are the valve springs, and if they're stiff enough for a 7K redline. Wondering what your thoughts are and if you know anywhere I could have work done at decent prices?

Best Regards,
Steve Mato

[CKlasse]

Steve,

I am polishing my own head cylinder. I ll take some picts before we put them back in. It's not hard to do inline head, your V8, however, is totally a different story.

The only reason why I am doing the head is because I have access to all the mahinery and tools. It's a learning process for myself taught by the hotrodders and chevy heads that work with me.

So far it costs me $400 to do the head. Pretty much, it's a clean up job, port & polish, stiffer springs, and maybe relobing the cam, but the last one is something I have not had any experience yet.

Furthermore, I usually like to be the underdog in any situation. This is why I chose C220 as a project car instead of the Audi 1.8T as originally planned. If I were in your place. I would build a N/A C43 that generate extra 40-50hp and to compete head to head with the C43 Kleeman. I truly believe its possible.

The Stage I exhaust though has not passed all the test throughly, so far showing a lot of great signs. Marc aka TUMP43 would tell you. We had 2 dynos so far, the peak HP gain is 18. It should get betters once the ECM is fully adapted. This number isn't official yet. All I know we are having blast working on this project.

About the 7K Limiter, Jeff probably can provide you much more info than anyone here. I know a bike shop in Denver who can easily remove the 6k limiter on the ECM, no prob. But I believe we have to mess with the TCM too.

Better DUAL Valve springs are affordable and can easily be replaced!