Tires are not the issue. The Contact3's are a great tire. THey are alot like the PZeroRosso's I run on a few cars- a very simular tire in feel. The COntacts have a little more grip, but the Pirelli's are just a tad more responsive and predictable. Those Contacts do not in any way walk about or wander, so definately its in the suspension.Originally Posted by kowalski
Lets look at what happens when you lower the rear of a w202. The five link suspension. The doniinant arms are the bottom control arm and the two diagonal forward links. As the suspension compresses, the bottom arm lengthens in geometry thus pushing the bottm out and giving a little neg camber. meanwhile the two (4-link type) forward ectentions will arch upward and pull the wheel forward. This is placing the knuckle forward and outward. Then the other two links- top camber link shortens pulling the top of the knuckle inward thus massive neg camber (hence the need for slightly longer aftermarket arms) and the toe link will tug the front of the knuckle inward making more positive toe position (toe in)...factory will most likely call for about 1/16" toe in, but this proabaly pulls it past 1/8" in which will make a car light in the rear. It kind of rides up on itself. A little toe will make it grip into corners, but too much can lead to high speed wander especially if you are experiencing a change in toe as one wheel hits a bump and the other doesn't. A rapid increase on one side will walk the rear towards the other direction.
The whole idea of suspension geometry, esppecially rear geometry is to try and keep all of the arms in sync so as not to push, pull or tug the rear knuckle in any direction that changes the tires path, If the knuckle moves off reference to the centerline of the vehicle in yaw, the tire does too. I am not familiar with the travel path of these cars suspension yet. I have yet to pull a spring out and put a gauge on the whel and bump it through travel to see just how it may change. I can assume the path of change, but I do not know how much change and in how effective this change comes with ljust how low a stance. I have see a few funny things so far - take SpeedBenz's car- I havee seen pics where he changed the lower forward links, and left the upper one stock- this takes rear caster out, or will put it in if you pull the wheel forward and shorten the wheelbase.(this comes at a cost of inducing toe-out- but if he went low enoguh he about averaged out the factory rear tierod spec- ultimately if this is what he did the final result pulled his wheel forward and slightly inward in his wheelwell.
5-links are very comples to try and get and imaginary picture- they make even my head hurt. I have to physically motion the assembly and measure as I do to see exactly what is changing.
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_kraz.../dscn0018.html
Last edited by Vetruck; 05-17-2013 at 12:29 AM.
So what do you think about getting adjustable toe in arms?
Are they worth the money?
My mechanic said if I go to Nürnburg ring for fun driving these rods are worth buying getting better handling/performance, if I don't race my car they are just waste of money!
That's what he said.
yes this car had some special suspension tune up.
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_krazy/shop_pix/
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_kraz...pix/page2.html
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_kraz...benz_on_board/
The pics you posted in the link belongs to a member here. His handle is c55mo and one of the OG's that Jeff (forgot his screen name) worked with to upgrade his suspension.
That is a one of a kind W202 C43 which was converted into a C55 and to go along with the the engine swap he didn't stop there and did a complete upgrade of his suspension. I think money was no object to him when it came to upgrading his C55 to transfer those power to the ground.
Kowalski- ask yourself, what are you planning on doing with your car?
If you are going to track/race it and can understand the suspension ins and outs, then do the upgrades mentioned in this Thread.
If this car is your DD, then realistically, how much tuning will you need? Doing these upgrades will change the way your car handles. If you like the comfort of the Benz then leave everything alone. Once you start changing things it will drive differently.
as I already bought my stuff I can't go back anymore.
I don't track my car, instead I drive like Bandit on motorways when it's free from other cars.
@ high speed my car wants to wander a bit, I think it's becoz the old style steering system or car's shell being sensitive to wind?
I want more stability to my car, it's already stiff with stock components, I don't mind getting better improved stuff giving my car more straightline stability at Autobahn speed.
Last edited by kowalski; 05-17-2013 at 11:21 AM.
100% correct there Denlasoul.
JJJ.
100% correct there Denlasoul.
JJJ.
I got new spring pads for my new future suspension.
I bought #5 front pads and #4 rear pads.
What kind of wheel gap am I going to get with my stuff, Vogtlands lowers approx 35mm?
I'm looking for 1 to 1½ finger gap front and rear without rub issues.
My stock wheel gap is now 2 finger gap front/rear.
My car is not a daily driver, it doesn't matter to me if I need to get a kidney belt for old skool Harley's if my car gets a stiffer ride.
stiffer ride must mean it's more fun to drive this car?
Last edited by kowalski; 05-17-2013 at 01:54 PM.
No he's 0% correct and I will explain why.
You want to leave the susepsion alone? Then don't lower the car at all. If you DO lower the car, you are changing the articulation neutral arch of the suspension links from -1/0/+1 range of horizonal level to 0/+1/+2, or even +1/+2/+3.
Some of the arms are shorter than others and are ment to increase cmaber with body roll, as well as increase +toe on that side with body roll. The increase negative camber (called "camber gain") is promoted to counter act both body roll AND tire lateral tire footprint distrotion. Strating with it in static form as you all know creates inner tire wear-thus the eamples of a 0 or even +1 starting point.
Now to the toe= the toe kindof does the same thing in roll. It induced a little turning of the outside rear wheel intot he direction of corner path as the car rolls and the suspension tucks, this effect is called "roll induced understeer". you lower the car and again you are changing the static position of toe.
You need to change this settings on a lowered car so they essentually are NOT changed
Last edited by Vetruck; 05-18-2013 at 07:56 AM.
@Kowalski-
1st off- Nurburgring? (Homer Simpson voice) oooOOouuh Im jealous, it is my dream to pilot that course one day. Investors have release a press release last year on a full scale replica of Nurburgring here in the states in of all places Las Vegas in the outer hills territory. I pray they break ground on that project.
yes you will need toe arms that are adjustable if the car is lowered. You pretty much need anything and everything adjustable if the car is lowered.
I hope these investors build a track for ya like Nürnburgring.
Go to your local mall where the wishing well is and drop a coin for your dream wish coming true.
Stock factory toe in arms are they usless in functionality when using adjustable camber arms?
Regarding adjustable toe arms, they cost a shitload of cash as I already bought camber arms from the same guy.
Having to pay another $310 dollars for those arms, ooooooouch my wallet hurts!
Adjustable toe in arms are they made specially for straightline driving?
You see the vertical adjustable rod in this picture
Who makes these stabilizers in adjustable version?
http://public.fotki.com/m8o/kar_kraz.../dscn0024.html
stock factory is plastic
http://www.ebay.de/itm/MERCEDES-190-...item43bc0ff5fe
Last edited by kowalski; 05-18-2013 at 10:01 AM.
Not sure I am following you. Everything you just wrote about camber/toe in etc etc supports my previous statement.
If you like the way the car drives, dont change anything. Most people dont like the look and thus change to lowering springs. Once that happens, as you have stated, all other spec alignments are thrown off. Now, 99.9% of our Members dont have the knowledge, understanding, resources, and parts to correct these changes. So we have a Forum of unhappy drivers seeking perfection that likely isnt possible because of the beforesaid factors.
Therefore, I suggest not changing anything unless you are ok with having things out of spec.
Back on track, this information is invaluable! I have a basic understanding of these concepts and now can see why my current setup behaves the way it does. I will have to consult you about doing a proper setup.
I agree copletely with this .Not sure I am following you. Everything you just wrote about camber/toe in etc etc supports my previous statement.
If you like the way the car drives, dont change anything. Most people dont like the look and thus change to lowering springs. Once that happens, as you have stated, all other spec alignments are thrown off. Now, 99.9% of our Members dont have the knowledge, understanding, resources, and parts to correct these changes. So we have a Forum of unhappy drivers seeking perfection that likely isnt possible because of the beforesaid factors.
Therefore, I suggest not changing anything unless you are ok with having things out of spec.
Back on track, this information is invaluable! I have a basic understanding of these concepts and now can see why my current setup behaves the way it does. I will have to consult you about doing a proper setup.
In the other post I read from you, you were talking about making changes discussed in this poost but if its you DD then leave it be- I thought you ment 'lower it and leave weverything else alone and live with it"- meaning the radiacal neg camber and toe outta wack that everyone seems to be just dealing with. I guess I interpeted what you wrote a different way- were are on the same page and my appologizes if I misinterpeted you, My bad.
@Kowalski- Those vertical bars are just merely some pieced together hiem links he put in place of the standard swaybar end links- he did that to take out deflection on any use of swaybar bushings. THat is a "track only" mod and will not last for daily street use. Street sbuse over dips bumps and potholes etc puts way more abrupt strain on solid links then a typical asphalt race track does. Racetracks are generally smmoth for the most part. Also, racecars are generally torn down and rebuilt a few times during a race season. Better off with rubber bushings or urethane (urethhane being the stronger of the two). It appears to me that even though SpeedyBenz did some custom work to that car, he was kindof throwing things at it probably at the advice of someone wanting to see him spend his money. That lower forward link being changed yet not the upper forward is puzzling to me. You either change them both are not. You don;t just do one. makees me think he was just putting some flash under there where people could look under and see the shiney parts
@Vetruck
these adjustable bars are they stress/strain sensitive for street abuse if you hit potholes, go over speedbumps or hit stormdrain lids at normal speed?
sometimes when you drive on unknown road conditions you hit a pothole or something else at certain speed, the question is if your alignment will be going out of whack because an adjustable camber arm/toe in arm is not a solid piece of metal?
For legal/high speed driving with normal wear n tear abuse these bars should they be fine meaning last long?
So far I don't have any issues like squeeks or bushings wore out.
I recently hit a small pothole with my rear wheels and I'm worried that my camber arms will screw me on tire wear later on when miles went on if they got out of sync from pothole impact?
Now and then when driving all drivers hits potholes because of poorly street maintanence from road work authorities.
What if your car gets rear-ended or get hit by another car on one of your rear wheel?
Adjustable bars will definately collapse from impact as they are a 3 piece part.
When I do my suspension mod later this year, if I don't get any straightline improvemnet at illegal high speed driving, then I have to start saving money for adjustable toe in arms.
Last edited by kowalski; 05-19-2013 at 01:00 AM.
The adjustable link bar assemblies are very strong and are not going to just break on you. Where the problem with tacing type parts lies is the use of solid metal pivots like hiems joints/rod ends. They work great and will last awhile even on street use if you buy very expensive upper end units, but they do transmit road feel since there is no rubber/urethane issolation dampering- AND the metal on metal picot balls will eventually wear and start causing a rodend knock noise that can be quite annoying expecially on a luxury car. The links on SpeedBenz car you asked about were in reference to his custom swaybar solid hiem joints. They are small in size and will not hold up to much abuse until they start knocjing are even break becasue they are such small diameter soild pivot balls used in those tiny swaybar links. better to use urethane bushing links always for a street car.
All of the other links are strong. they just will wear over time- so with that said, the higher the priced rod ends you buy (look for high Axiel strength, radial strength is not as important but the two usually go hand in hand in load capacity ratings) the longer they will last for street use without noise or knocking sound. I have wiped out Com-12 bearings in as little as 2 months, yet have had high strength PRN-T bearings last well over 3 years of daily driving use. The difference is about $17 for the Com-12 and about $78 for the PRN-T just to give examples.
When people make up links using Coleman aluminum rods and QA1 com-12 rod ends, they are cheap in cost and do not last long without developing a little slop and thus noise. That 3-pc link assembly for a Camber arm may cost about $50 each side, whereas a very high quality rodened 3pc link will cost about $170 per side. THose bushing arms from places like Kmac have issolator bushings inside the ends. So do the DIY arms in that post from Speedway Motors- those are not solid links, but will still have a little deflection and are not good for racing. they will as long as any OEM part for daily street use though.
I run very high end stuff on my 5000 lb truck as a DD. This is my DD, I am building the C220 for the little lady- it's her DD.
You can see in the pics the stuff I run on this truck. Everything on this vehicle is built bigtime. It is all heavy duty racing parts. I run usrethane bushing in my lower A-arms because they last longer and have alot greater forces exerted on them than these upper control arms. The upper ares are what set the Camber like on the rear of our Mercedes, and they see about 1/3 the abuse the links on this truck see. My front rodeneds are finally starting to know after about 5-6 years so I will be replacing the rodends in these very soon. They have about 50,000 very hard miles on them and cost about $80 each, there ore two on each arm so I run a total of 4. THis is not a cheap hobby.
These entire arm assemblies I pieced together are about $700
great info thanks
mbarts adjustable links is in the higher pricerange?
reading his technical specs,materials must be good stuff?
http://mbartsperformance.com/MBA-202-ARCA.html
where do you buy HQ chromoly rod ends when they need to be replaced?
I would not trust he's using high end rod ends. They are probably low to mid range units. They are telfon coated which is good, but for the price I would just piece together your own units. Give me a little time I will find all the specs for you based off that DIY camber arm post. Let me see if I can exchange that DIY link with good rodends based on their thread size. You will also need to get spacers for each side of the Rodeneds to fill the gap but those are also easily acquired online.
Info so for-
here's that DIY link
http://www.club202.com/forums/showth...ar-camber-arms
Speedway end link info is:
5/8" shanks
1/2" center bore
2 7/8" lentgh from center bore fo end of threads
Let me look now or some good rod ends that will replace those rubber end links
You want REALLY strong racing links- here is the ultimate links
These ends hold 55,692 lbs radial load
QA1 Part # HMR12HT right hand threads----need 2...$46.49 each
QA1 part # HML12HT left hand threads------need 2...$46.49 each
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/c...loy-steel.html
QA1 part # SG12-84 High misalignment step spacers from 3/4" to 1/2" (1/4" wide on each side of rodened to fill the gap of the chassis and knuckle mounts)----you'll need 2 for each rodend, so a total of 8....$7.50 each
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/c...alignment.html
Coleman aluminum 9 1/2" arms- EZ adjust type/no need for jam nuts. You use 1" longer arms than Jam nut style arms. You have splenty of shank lengh on the rod ends so 9.5" long units should be fine. makes ALOT easier adjustment with the lockdown clamps.
Qty-2...$21.35 each
http://www.colemanracing.com/Trailin...-34-P3753.aspx
Total- $288.66
Larger (3/4" bore), not 5/8 bore), stronger rod ends by far than the MBarts untis or the DIY units and will last forever on the rear end of a lightweight W202 camber link.
This is what I will be doing
Edit to add- The rod ends are 1.5" long each side when fully countersunk into the link arms. This makes the absolute minimum link length of 12.5", and a maximum of about 14" since e shanks on each side are 1.8" long. You get about 3/4" of thread adjustment from each side making a total of about 1.5" adjustment in length.
Last edited by Vetruck; 06-26-2013 at 06:26 PM.
thats great news vetruck!
thanks.
all right, so these stuff are the professional stuff i should have bought the very first time?
they came out cheaper than mbarts for $288.66.
when you put the same stuff on your car, parts you have linked above let me know what i need to buy for adjustable toe in bars as i don't know US sizes which comes in inch measurment.
we use metric in europe
anyone know the size diameter of MB-Arts adjustable camber arm tube?
when i need to buy replacement rod-ends, i want to buy HQ ends.
so what size rod-ends do i need to get?
thanx
Last edited by kowalski; 05-20-2013 at 02:15 AM.
The MB Arts says on their site they are using 1" solid bar 6061-T6 and talk up their ass in marketing hype how theirs are so much stronger than "sprintcar arms". Got news for MB Arts- the Coleman arms fall into the catagory of racing aluminum trailing arms like all the other manufacturers (Allstar, Coleman, etc) which all happen to be 6061-T6 ALSO.
These links are in compression and tension. The weakest part of the aluminum is the same on both MB Arts units as well as the so called sprintcar arms (self procliamed term by MB Arts- they are alumunim trailing arms...period) That weakest section is the thread bore size and the threads. The smaller the thread bore, the weaker the threads will be. THe MB Arts arms use either a 5/8" bore (smaller)or the same 3/4" bore at best as the Coleman arms. Now when you look at the wall thickness of a 3/4" bore into a 1" bar stock, that leaves .125 wall thickness AND THEN the threads are cut into them making them even thinner. Most likely the MBarts arms are using 5/8" shank rodends, not the 3/4" shank ones I listed. So lets take the 5/8" bore into 1" bar and we have .1875 walls prior to threads cut. The Coleman arms are 1.125 with a 3/4" bore and thus the same .1875 wall..YET the Coleman arms have a larger bore and thus a larger shank thread surface area- thus stronger. Low and behold, MB Arts marketing hype is false about so called sprint car arms being inferior.
Now lets look at the 5/8" shank/ 1/2" centerbore heat treated alloy rodends that are teflon coated. lets take the best 5/8" vs the best 3/4" and compare the strengths of the pivot ball and race (we already learned the shank threads are far stronger on the 3/4"). I can see in the pictures of the MB Arts rodends that he is is also using stepdown spacers so the center bore is a little larger than 1/2" to do so. Thus if he is using 5/8" shank rodend they are a 5/8" bore. The best ones availible are the HML10HT's which are 40,572 (remember the larger 3/4" are 55,692- much stronger).
HOWEVER, I highly doubt that MB Arts is using the high dollar units, they are most likely using the HML10T's, not the HML10HT's which are half the price and only a strength of 17,995
In Conclusion, even if MB Arts did in fact use the larger and best 55,692 load rodends, the thread bore for the shank on their 1" diameter bar links would be far inferior- or else they are using the inferior smaller rodends. They definately are inferior one way or the other- calculations show they can NOT be as strong as the pieces I listed- and they charge you more.
Let me take MB Arts disclaimer and use the same "Public Service Announcement" and use it against them....what a joke, its's all about scare tactics and marketing hype.
Last edited by Vetruck; 05-20-2013 at 10:42 AM.
just a FYI- I am quite well known and respected in the GM aftermarket parts world. I have taken down many aftrmarket vendors on car forums just like this in personal debates and facts (UMI, Hotparts, Founders Perf, PAracing, Racecraft, Chisholm- to name a few)
JJJ.
Great to have you here. Wish I could reciprocate!
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