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Thread: Ball seat lug nuts/ Wheel studs

  1. #1
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    Ball seat lug nuts/ Wheel studs

    I have been searching for days now on this subject. Apparently noone makes an extended ball seat lug nut in our 12mmx1.5 threads.

    I have taken these wheels off a few times now and must say I for some reason can not stand trying to fit the wheels back onto the car with the lugbolts- what a stupid design.

    I have been looking into wheel studs to replace the lugbolts- found them easy since alot of Spec BMW racing classes us them for quicker pitstops. They are shouldered so you spin the stud into the brakehub down to the collard seat with locktight, then you simply us lug nuts instead.
    The 60mm will work good for me- gives me about 1" of exposed threads for lug nut clamping on my new wheels
    http://www.race-studs.com/servlet/th...e-Studs/Detail

    The I could simply go to a ballseat lugnut like this, but the lug holes in my wheels are so deep I am trying to find an extended lightweight racing lugnut that will fit. Aluminum is fine as long as it is long threads and you never use an impact to torque them on.
    These are too shallow though and would still be deep in the pockets of the wheel
    http://www.race-studs.com/servlet/th...h--Audi/Detail

    I want more like these but the seat is not correct and would need a taper/ballseat convertion washer. Those are only made in Vw13mm radius and we are Mercedes12mm radius ball seats- plus the pain in the ass dealing with washers and lugs rather than just lugs.
    http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/GOR44037AL.htm

    It is really the look I am after as well as safety, so the idea of the wahers rus me the wrong way. Ill probably just end up with studs and the small ball seat lugs. Any other ideas? I want to order these by tomorrow evening if I can not come up with any better solution.
    THis is the idea I am after to make the wheel lugs look like the perimeter bolts on the rim:

  2. #2
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    Whoops, I linked the wrong small ballseat lugs up top. I listed the 12mm Vw/Audi ones that have the R13 ballseat size, As stated, we have the R12 size ballseats.

    Here are the proper R12 seat 12mmx1.5mm lug nuts
    http://www.race-studs.com/servlet/th...eel-Lug/Detail

  3. #3
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    Total cost for 20-60mm studs and 20- lugnuts is 97.55 shipped
    Attachment 1375

    Most likely Ill just end up doing that for now and work on better lug nuts later if I can find them. This will at least be more safe and easier to work on, those lug bolts are a real PITA and are so deep in the bolt holes of the wheels you can not finger them with these wheels.

    I have also seen the extended Mercedes type lug bolts, but those will NOT work for me since the shank portion is still too long and will ground out in the hub prior to proper wheel torquing.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003O4LCP6
    Last edited by Vetruck; 06-25-2013 at 01:00 PM.

  4. #4
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    I hated taking wheels off and putting them on too. UNTIL I discovered the little peg you screw in that guides the wheel into place. It is in your MB tool kit they provide, located by your spare tire.

    edit: wheel studs would be cool though.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denlasoul View Post
    I hated taking wheels off and putting them on too. UNTIL I discovered the little peg you screw in that guides the wheel into place. It is in your MB tool kit they provide, located by your spare tire.

    edit: wheel studs would be cool though.

    I know about it, I just am not digging it out every time I want to pull a wheel. I just don;t like the idea of not seeing threads. I run open faced lugnuts on every car I have and I like the piece of mind knowing the threads come clear through the nut. You do not have that with the Lug bolts, its a guess how the internal threads look when you remove them repetitively over the years. Wih studs, you can inspect the threads as well as hold the lug nuts up to the light and look through them. This type of OEm lugbolt is never used in racing applications, kind of tells you something- I personally don;t trust the integrity of the way the bolt is machined with the ball head- seems like a stress point to me. Fine for the skinny OEM wheels, but not for wider aftermarket stuff. I feel even better machining them to 1/2" or even 14mm, but makes brake rotor changes in the future a real pain.

    WHy am I concerned? If it will happen, Im the guy it will happen to. I have even broken high strength ARP racing studs on another car just from cornering strain. I had two shear off of 5. I could write a novel on battle wounds.

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    have you tried radusadirect? thats where i get mine from


    http://otisincla.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by wichipong View Post
    have you tried radusadirect? thats where i get mine from


    http://otisincla.com/
    There website must be down. I was able to briefly get on there this morning but then it shut down and I can get back on. I will look for a link to them on EBAY- I saw something about them having a store on ebay. I think I saw enough though to see they did not have anything special in the way of aftermarket ball seat lugnuts. Just average stuff.

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    you're looking for 60mm thread length? i might have 55mm in 12x1.50... i also have some in 14x1.50... i have to check my garage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wichipong View Post
    you're looking for 60mm thread length? i might have 55mm in 12x1.50... i also have some in 14x1.50... i have to check my garage.
    Are you talking studs? If so I already ordered some a few days ago. I am looking for extended ballseat lug nuts longer than 27MM- possible about 45-50 mm. No one makes any that I see so I am just going to use regular open end chrome plated lug nuts.

  10. #10
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    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLAMMED_C View Post
    Those are typical LugBOLTs. I can find them all day. Iposted I am looking for extended lugNUTS with ballseats, not conical 60* taper. No one makes them. I must say that the first person that does will be a millionaire. All the Honda S2000's would buy them as well as a few others.

  12. #12
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    Sorry! Didn't read it correctly.
    How about these?..... Open end so the threads can come through... http://www.race-studs.com/servlet/th...h--Audi/Detail

    Or this if your dead set on extended closed end lug nuts, if you can find extended cone seat lug nuts.. Use this adapter.. http://www.kseriesparts.com/cr/SSR-WHEELWASHER.html
    Last edited by SLAMMED_C; 06-28-2013 at 06:06 PM.
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLAMMED_C View Post
    Sorry! Didn't read it correctly.
    How about these?..... Open end so the threads can come through... http://www.race-studs.com/servlet/th...h--Audi/Detail

    Or this if your dead set on extended closed end lug nuts, if you can find extended cone seat lug nuts.. Use this adapter.. http://www.kseriesparts.com/cr/SSR-WHEELWASHER.html
    Ive already posted that information too^^^. Those are the wrong lug nuts- they are R13 and not R12...AND those adapter washers are ALSO R13- they do not work with our 12mm R12 wheel sockets.

  14. #14
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    I think you're pretty much SOL.. I'm coming up with nothing. Longest I could find in r12 12mmx1.5 ball seat lug nuts was about 40mm... http://hartmannwheels.com/hardware
    Good luck with your search.
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLAMMED_C View Post
    I think you're pretty much SOL.. I'm coming up with nothing. Longest I could find in r12 12mmx1.5 ball seat lug nuts was about 40mm... http://hartmannwheels.com/hardware
    Good luck with your search.
    I am not trying to pick on you- I am just percise in my tech info and ask other to do the same. WHy? because people rely on info they read when they spend hard earned money. With that said... This is the 3rd time you have posted something wrong or repetitive in this post- are you not reading? are you hastingly reading and posting info? what is it? You just again posted info that is wrong or misleading. That website DOES NOT have R12 12mmx1.5MM lug NUTS that are 40mm long.

    I will please encourage you to slow down and better read a post before you just throw up info that is innacurrate or repetitve to what was already posted- it make you look silly and lack credibility.

    Thank you, Dean
    Last edited by Vetruck; 06-30-2013 at 02:39 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vetruck View Post
    I am not trying to pick on you- I am just percise in my tech info and ask other to do the same. WHy? because people rely on info they read when they spend hard earned money. With that said... This is the 3rd time you have posted something wrong or repetitive in this post- are you not reading? are you hastingly reading and posting info? what is it? You just again posted info that is wrong or misleading. That website DOES NOT have R12 12mmx1.5MM lug NUTS that are 40mm long.

    I will please encourage you to slow down and better read a post before you just throw up info that is innacurrate or repetitve to what was already posted- it make you look silly and lack credibility.

    Thank you, Dean
    My apologies, I was reading 2 different things from that site. they do have r12 ball seat nuts (locks) that are 30mm, I was reading the r12 ball seat 40mm bolts and combined them.
    Im a little too busy with my own life to be reading everything you posted in here thoroughly, I don't often get a lot of time to site down and spend time on club202. I skimmed through to get an idea of what you were looking for and then I searched.
    good luck with your search and your mod.
    *2002 E320 4Matic Wagon* Daily
    --Not lowered—18" Alphards—Stock exhaust.
    Lots Coming—3 piece 18" AMG Aero II—Custom Bags—Wide Fenders—W210 E55 Engine Swap with 4matic—

    *1999 C230K Turbo* Track Car
    --18" SL55 AMG's--KW V2 Suspension--SLK55 Front and Rear Brake--Wiechers Braces--Custom GT28 Turbo--Custom 3" Exhaust--68mm Throttle body--450cc Injectors--Custom Intake Manifold--Custom liquid to air intercooler--C36 Rear--Brabus Front--

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLAMMED_C View Post
    they do have r12 ball seat nuts (locks) that are 30mm
    OK Then show me where?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLAMMED_C View Post
    Im a little too busy with my own life to be reading everything you posted in here thoroughly, I don't often get a lot of time to site down and spend time on club202..
    My exact point why I said if you can't post accurate info then might I suggest you stop wasting peoples time. Your FOURTH wrong post in one thread (0 for 4) now tells me you are an idiot. Appology accepted, but I guess I just can't fix stupid.

  19. #19
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    Having been through this myself, you have to ask yourself an important question. Do you intend to run factory wheels, or aftermarket wheels.

    The stud kits (I have one myself, bullet nose extended length hardened rolled thread screw in studs) are all screw in style. there really is not much benefit, other than being able to hang the wheels much easier. Sure it enables you to switch spacers, but how often will you be changing spacers?

    Really, to run real press-in studs, the kind with a shoulder, would require all four hubs to be machined. the backface of the hubs is not machined flat from the factory. So to do this "right" would require removal of all four hubs, and a trip to the machine shop. Where to take them? I would only trust a few shops to do this correctly. Strange, or Jegs would be my first and second choices. And while this work is being done, you might as well convert to 14mm (or larger) studs. This will preclude using any early MB 12mm wheels without machine work to the wheels as well. You cannot simply enlarge the holes in the MB wheels as now you would have 14mm holes on a 12mm ball seat. There would be no material left, and the nuts would eventually pull through.

    I wanted to use W209 AMG wheels. These wheels use 14mm bolts with a 14mm ball seat radius. I did not want the time or expense of converting to 14mm bolts or studs. To solve this problem, I bought custom (expensive) machined nuts. I can tell you I used Tikore to do this work. they provided me with 14mm ball seat nuts in an extended length, with a 12 x 1.5 mm threading.

    Now that I have bought new wheels, these wheel nuts are useless.

    Most aftermarket wheels use 60 degree cone nuts. These are easy to source as I'm sure you know.

    Be sure you have decided on the wheels you REALLY want before you proceed any further.
    202.029

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhmercracer View Post
    Having been through this myself, you have to ask yourself an important question. Do you intend to run factory wheels, or aftermarket wheels.

    The stud kits (I have one myself, bullet nose extended length hardened rolled thread screw in studs) are all screw in style. there really is not much benefit, other than being able to hang the wheels much easier. Sure it enables you to switch spacers, but how often will you be changing spacers?

    Really, to run real press-in studs, the kind with a shoulder, would require all four hubs to be machined. the backface of the hubs is not machined flat from the factory. So to do this "right" would require removal of all four hubs, and a trip to the machine shop. Where to take them? I would only trust a few shops to do this correctly. Strange, or Jegs would be my first and second choices. And while this work is being done, you might as well convert to 14mm (or larger) studs. This will preclude using any early MB 12mm wheels without machine work to the wheels as well. You cannot simply enlarge the holes in the MB wheels as now you would have 14mm holes on a 12mm ball seat. There would be no material left, and the nuts would eventually pull through.

    I wanted to use W209 AMG wheels. These wheels use 14mm bolts with a 14mm ball seat radius. I did not want the time or expense of converting to 14mm bolts or studs. To solve this problem, I bought custom (expensive) machined nuts. I can tell you I used Tikore to do this work. they provided me with 14mm ball seat nuts in an extended length, with a 12 x 1.5 mm threading.

    Now that I have bought new wheels, these wheel nuts are useless.

    Most aftermarket wheels use 60 degree cone nuts. These are easy to source as I'm sure you know.

    Be sure you have decided on the wheels you REALLY want before you proceed any further.
    I have my wheels, they are the same R12 ball seat as my OEM wheels have.

    I have my studs, they are NOT press in, they are screw in shouldered racing studs that are TUV approved. 30 lbs torque and red locktite into the hubs. Simple installation.

    I explained why I want studs and not lugbolts. )I want to see exposed threads on the studs through the wheel opening when the wheel is seated on the hub 2) I like to see the wear of the threads on the stud that is exposed , unlike threads that are hidden inside a hub . the hidden threads inside open end lugnuts can be thoroughly inspected by simply holding them up to a light and looking through them to see wear and/or gulling, 3) lastly as stated it simply makes wheel removal and replacement easier and quicker. Unlike most people, I tend to pull my wheels off my car alot more that the average person that just gas and go's. I like to torque my wheels very percisely and evenly to 85 lbs each and every time, not 83, not 86. I have even strain on all studs as a result. I plan to be cornering alot harder that the average bear- history and resume' account for fact.

    Lastly, I specifically asked about R12 ball seat lugnuts. If anyone is to lecture anyone on experience- you are barking at the wrong person I am willing to bet big dollars on that. The simple fact I asked for OEM specs shows my experience trumps your attempt to changes things to simply fit another OEM wheel that is not engineered for your car.

    I think what you do not realize is this is all about thread wear. When you have a lugbolt, your threadwear is the amount of threads inserted intot he hub which is not much. THis section of threads is constantly torqued and retorqued and will eventually wear. On a stud design, the torqued section of threads is exposed. the threads of the insertd stud into the hub is inserted once and locktite. It will never see wear again on this smaller length section of threads. The new longer wheelstuds can now accept l-o-n-g-e-r lug nuts and THUS.....it distributed the torqued load accross a larger area of threads to reduce wear and maintain safety.

    Why do I want studs? not for just ease of wheel replacement or looking cool, not hardly. I want them mainly for safety.

    Thank you

    Now if anyone else is going to respond? The question I asked about is pertaining to anyone selling longer R12 lugnuts than 27MM ones I currently have.

    If anyone wants another option- let me be the one to suggest to you all my next alternative so you see I am far ahead of your ideas I did not ask about- My next best choice will be to take these new wheels down to a machine shop and have them machine the female ballseat down about 2mm on the upper and lower edges and simply make the contact surface area into a conical 60* seat. So any further suggestions are not solicited other than if anyone knows of anyone that sells R12 lug nuts longer than 27mm. Hope we are clear now?

    Dean
    Last edited by Vetruck; 07-01-2013 at 10:42 PM.

  21. #21
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    Right.

    You are correct on the thread-wear issue. You are no longer wearing the threads in the hub when you install/remove a wheel bolt. Wheels are easier to remove/install with studs. They look cool for sure.

    The problem is they are no safer. Without press in, shouldered studs, you are still saddled with the 5 to 7 thread contact area in the hubs. Red loctite, and a proper torquing will minimize the loosening, but it will still occasionally happen. You need to check every stud every time you remove/install a wheel.

    The common zinc plated studs you see online, are usually made in China, and are inferior to the stock bolts. They are made with common alloys, and offer no additional strength. This is a real problem with 12mm studs, which are adequate at best. (MB went to 14mm some time ago)

    So you want the hardened alloy studs.



    These only come in an acid etched black. This coating offers minimal corrosion resistance. Fine for a track car, but not so much for the street.

    But you have sexy studs!! What to do to preserve the sexy?? No sexy, extended closed end, 12mm ball seat nuts in all of JDM-land. Damn.

    The solution? Closed end nuts. Custom machined, non corroding, ball seat, closed end, extended length, nuts.

    In titanium:




    At $35 each, you know why I asked you which wheel you were SURE you wanted to use.

    Where I have been through your predicament, and I know of what I speak, I posted to help you out
    202.029

  22. #22
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    Let me educate you on your wonderful black studs. They are cheap. The term "Black" when refering to nuts and bolts means a wider inferior tolerance of threads. Companies often up the cost because they look lik

    I said again I do not need advice form someone that obvious didn;t know what he was doing and spent a boatload of money on great lug nuts but crappy studs on some OEM wheels not engineered for the car. But I guess you missed that and again are wasting my time reading a post from you that does not answer what I asked for.

    You obviously have no clue who I am - do a little search and you will be embarassed who you are trying to "educate"

    What you want in a stud is Certified by ISO/TS 16949 and ISO 9001 by TÜV. In order to attain this the manufacturing process of the threads need to be rolled after heat treating.

    Look at the threads up close on your typical "black racing studs". They are not J-rolled threads and look very choppy. So you don;t have to actually look, I was a crew cheif on a Craftsman Supertruck NASCAR team - I've done just a few tire changes . My resume, if you want to get into experience pissing matches, goes far beyond that. maybe my 63 class wins in SCCA alone as a driver in a Corvette racecar, or the fact I am a professional driing instuctor for an exotic racing experience cmpany with Ferrari's and Lamborghini's? So yeah, I don't need your arrogant lecture or you'll hear much more of mine on a stupid little post asking if anyone here knows any company that "sells extended ball seat lug nuts"...period.

    My pet pieve on car forums is when people do not read what you ask about- and start giving advice that is unsolicited. I just wonder how all the cars with 12mm size studs have survived. Mercedes went to 14 mm to avoid a crappy lugbolt from shearing off at the head when stressed. Studs and bnuts are far better than bolts because the bolt shaft twists when torqued. This puts strain and a ballseat type head because of the 90* point between the shaft and the head- bad design so the upped the mecahincal load properties of it ehn they went to higher performing cars with wider tires- Im getting rid of them entirely and going to stud and nuts to take out that 90* shear point and twist. Its the same reason high compression motors use studs and nuts rather that bolts in top applications. common physics. So lets get back to what I asked. If anyone just wants to search the internet- don;t waste you time, I;'ve been doing that route for over a week now. My question was aasked a week ago if anyone already knew of a company- it appears not.
    Last edited by Vetruck; 07-02-2013 at 11:54 AM.

  23. #23
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    The link above in the first opening statement was just showing typical BMW converion kits that are commonly sold which are the same size threads we use.

    For the record, here are the studs I bought:
    http://www.motorsporthardware.com/58...ud-kit-12x1-5/

  24. #24
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    I did not mean to offend you.

    Everyone here is attempting to help you. Yet you continue to apply a certain attitude of superiority. I am trying to save the you some cash by asking you which wheel you would really like to use. Perhaps I have appeared to talk down to you. I do not.

    I have read your suspension posts with great interest. Good stuff.

    The studs you purchased are excellent also.

    The studs I have utilize cold rolled threads. Chemical blackening is used instead of plating to negate hydrogen embrittlement which can happen during plating.

    My main point is you are in the same boat as I was. There is very little available to solve the problem.

    Make fun of my "Made in USA" parts. When I think of the money spent on this car, I laugh too. It is nice I have the disposable income to spend on this silly stuff.

    Be sure to post your solution to this quandary when you choose your parts.
    202.029

  25. #25
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    A little off topic, but could you recommend some lug bolt brands that are of good quality? I need a new set and do not wish to buy junk.

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