New Piggyback ECU Tuner-Soon To Be Released

[speedybenz]

Below is a copy of a reply to my question about a piggyback ECU tuner that Autospeed is producing. This thing is going to be such a big tuning aid for our MB's. I can't wait for this item to become available.

Jeff

Piggy on a Platter
I read with great interest that you mentioned a Do-It-Yourself ECU piggyback tuner. I am hoping the final design will be released in the near future. Is there any date when that product may become available? I am holding off buying other piggyback ECU tuners to possibly buy this unit. Thanks for your great website.

Jeff Short
USA



We expect the kit (developed by Silicon Chip magazine) to be released mid-year. All work on the protypes is finished - they are performing flawlessly. Kit pricing from Jaycar Electronics includes the Digital Fuel Adjuster at around AUD$80 and the Digital Hand Controller at AUD$60! Take full control over your mixtures for under AUD$150... Stay tuned to AutoSpeed for real-world applications once the kits are released.

[MrSpace]

hum, foes this replace a chip?

I'm interested, after reading from linh on bnzsport that many had no gain with chips after pulley upgrade, it would be interesting!

Etienne

[speedybenz]

Yes, this unit will be able to be used inplace of a chip, except it will not alter ignition timing curves. But it will give you full control of your Air/Fuel mixtures which is much more important to increasing power.

Jeff

[manny]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Yes, this unit will be able to inplace of a chip, except it will not alter ignition timing curves. But it will give you full control of your Air/Fuel mixtures which is much more important to increasing power.
Jeff

Now there is a scary thought!

[JAY4]

Hey Speedy, do you have a link for Autospeed?

[speedybenz]

JAY4,

Here is the link to the Autospeed site. It is a pay site, but it is worth every cent. It is the only pay site I subscribe to.

http://www.autospeed.com/index.html

[MrSpace]

Any update on this?

Etienne

[delisi2322]

cant wait til this becomes available to all of us

[Rocky]

Originally posted by speedybenz
Yes, this unit will be able to be used inplace of a chip, except it will not alter ignition timing curves. But it will give you full control of your Air/Fuel mixtures which is much more important to increasing power.

Jeff

Keep this away from Elvir :P hehehe

[speedybenz]

You can order the unit from Jaycar Electronics, except they are not going to ready for sale until September this year.

I went ahead and bought one anyhow, to be first on the list.

This ECU tuner has the potential to really make some Hp if you have modded your car much.

JEff

[Linh]

Yes, this unit will be able to be used inplace of a chip, except it will not alter ignition timing curves. But it will give you full control of your Air/Fuel mixtures which is much more important to increasing power.

Since it have nothing to do with timing, you can control air fuel mixture on our car (pre-2000 model) by way of fuel pressure regulator. I can make more power just by going with a lesser pressure fuel pressure regulator or even make more power by going back to the factory fuel pressure regulator but then your air fuel ratio is at 15.1:1 on some car. Your engine won't last long with those kind of a/f ratio.The only thing i can say good about piggy back system is, it can be tune for temporary use like for everyday use or retune it for track use or what ever you like and can tune it back to factory any time you like.

[moebiusgold]

The way that I understand the closed loop is unless you make the O2 sensors lie, whatever you do to make the FI put out more fuel (I think it is increase fuel rail pressure) will be compensated for with a new map or long term fuel trims in the minus direction.

[Linh]

The way that I understand the closed loop is unless you make the O2 sensors lie, whatever you do to make the FI put out more fuel (I think it is increase fuel rail pressure) will be compensated for with a new map or long term fuel trims in the minus direction.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.
But i believe the piggy back system is tap into the MAS then sending fault signal and the ECU translate that signal and give more or less fuel depending on the signal. On the older Mercedes MAS which had the resistor design, you can actually change that resistor value by install a difference value resistor and send wrong signal to ECU to provide more or less fuel that you want.

[speedybenz]

Reprinted from Autospeed .com

Driving Emotion

It's been an exciting weekend.

By Julian Edgar

It's been an exciting weekend.

Genuinely exciting.

I have been testing one of the projects from an electronics book I am doing with Silicon Chip Publications. I've been selling work to Silicon Chip, an Australian electronics magazine, for a long time - in fact something like a decade. Over that period I have written many articles about car electronic systems, in addition to covering topics as diverse as electric lighting technologies and washing machines.

But what I have been testing over the weekend is all about modified cars.

It began when about six months ago I had a discussion with the publisher of Silicon Chip, Leo Simpson. He asked: how would I like to come up with all sorts of ideas for electronics projects that could be applied to high performance cars? After I devised the concept, the magazine's chief electronics designer - an unsung genius called John Clarke - would do the hard work (including building the prototype) and then I'd do the on-car testing. And after we'd got a bunch of projects together, they'd be published in a magazine-style book.

Sounded good to me.


So - back to this weekend - I spent the daylight hours working with my fiancé Georgina, as she punched the keys on the digital hand controller and I drove the cars and offered advice. The cars were (sequentially) my 1988 Nissan Maxima V6 Turbo import and then my 1998 Lexus LS400. We were tuning the air/fuel ratios using a brilliant new DIY kit interceptor designed as part of this electronics book. The kit is likely to be stocked by Jaycar Electronics and should be well under AUD$200 (maybe even only $150!); the ability to fine-tune the air/fuel ratios is quite extraordinary.

Injector swaps, airflow meter swaps, tweaking the high load mixtures - all are possible. And then add to that the fact that the interceptor will work with 0-5V (common airflow meters), 0-12V (less common airflow meters) or 0-1V (oxygen sensor signals) and you can see why I am excited.

On the Maxima the interceptor (which we'll call a Digital Fuel Adjuster, or DFA), worked perfectly. Two changes were made to the mixtures of the Nissan - leaning out the full-load mixtures (which were typically over-rich), and tipping-in a bit of extra fuel as the car came onto boost. At full load we changed a 6000 rpm 11.2:1 to 12.5: 1, at a full-load 5000 rpm we went from 11.3:1 to 12.7:1 and at 4000 rpm we leaned from 11.7:1 to 12.6:1. As the car came on boost we went from a near-stoichiometric 14.5:1 to a much more power-friendly 12.9:1.

And yes, the car sure responded.

But not content with that we also upped the boost, firstly from a standard 0.4 Bar to 1 Bar, then back to 0.6 Bar (the intercooler was getting a bit too hot at 1 Bar!). And both times we were able to tune the mixtures to suit - with all testing being done on the road. And that's not only the full-load mixtures, but also the part-throttle air/fuel ratios (out of closed loop, of course).

The Lexus was a bit trickier - as with any prototype testing, we found that a few changes to the kit would need to be made. (These alterations might add - er - $4 to the price...)

One interesting thing we found is that the Lexus stays in closed loop until quite high loads, but we were still able to alter full-load air/fuel ratios from around 11:1 to typically 12.5:1. Interestingly, the peak injector duty cycle (displayed on a digital meter which is another DIY project from the book!) dropped from 74 to 65 per cent. 0-100 km/h times showed an improvement of about 2/10ths of a second, but the important stuff is that even on a sophisticated car like the Lexus (four oxygen sensors...) we were still able to change high load mixtures seamlessly and with absolute smoothness.

No driving glitches here.

And the Autronic air/fuel ratio meter that we were using for all this testing? Funny thing is that we borrowed it from a company that has its own sophisticated interceptor, a product that in some ways this cheap DIY project will be in competition with...

ChipTorque has developed the Xede, which in addition to fuelling changes can also do timing and boost control - and other things as well. But Lachlan Riddel - head honcho of ChipTorque - and his chief tuner Matthew Spry were fascinated by my plans for a budget DIY kit interceptor; interested enough to make available the company's Autronic air/fuel ratio meter for a weekend of testing.

The unkind could suggest that they wanted to see the testing fail in the most glorious way possible, so that they could say "Told ya!". But I don't think that is true: instead I think it more likely that despite some minor commercial conflicts of interest, the technicalities just entranced them to a degree that they wanted to become involved. And to be honest, their product can do infinitely more than the tested prototype kit - and for the dollars being asked, you'd hope so!

So right now I am putting the prototype DFA through its paces on a long-term test: the device will stay in my car from hereon. The electronics project book - still to be named - will be sold through the AutoSpeed shop, in addition to newsagents here in Australia and New Zealand, but realistically the publication is still about 6-8 months away.

But hey, I just had to share that excitement. Real-time tuning the air/fuel ratios with a digital hand controller - and the whole lot a kit costing under two hundred Australian bucks...


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Copyright © 1996-2004 Web Publications Pty Limited. All Rights Reserved

[htfan1]

Any updates on the availability of this ECU tuner?

[speedybenz]

Nothing yet, and I have bugged a couple of times

[98c43amg]

(old thread, I know ... didn't want to start a new one)

BTW, on a slightly different note then the piggyback ECU... Jeff, any "joy" from Kleemann regarding the increase in your redline?

If the timing is right and they're going to do something for you in this regards in a few months, the same time I approx. my car would be down while installing your suspension components and the LSD, I'd jump on board and have mine done @ the same time.

[VIP_MBZ]

I understand that this is an old thread, but I noticed that a lot of people were looking forward to diving onto this product rather than using an ECU upgrade (like Renntech), but seem to be misinformed about high performance tuning in a forced-induction application. (referring specifically to Kompressor models)

Regarding the comment about timing having less to do with real performance: Yes it's true that running an aggressive a/f ratio will gain you more power then bumping up the ignition timing. But using this device for that purpose is missing the big picture. The big picture is that you have a supercharger on your vehicle, which is the most efficient power-adder you have, and any other subsequent tuning should be geared towards allowing the supercharger to boost more without detonation.

Case-in-point, having a carefully tuned timing map is the key to running high boost without detonation. Same goes with the a/f ratio -- tuning on a naturally aspirated vehicle, you would want to lean out the conservative mixture to gain 5-10 horsepower, on a supercharged car, you can richen the upper RPM to cool the mixture, allowing you to run a more aggressive pulley without detonation, giving you 20-30 more hp.

The trouble with a device that controls the a/f-ratio EXCLUSIVELY, is that you are also indirectly affecting the timing map. All this device does is fool the MAS to reporting more or less volume of air, and the ECU will therefore compensate for more of less fuel. What they don't tell you is that the ECU also determines the spark advance from the volume of air ingested, and in most factory boosted setups, this means retarding the timing as the volume increases. So when you're leaning out, you're also advancing, and when you're richening, you're retarding.

You are also going to be limited by the maximum signal output of the MAS -- for example, if it uses a 0-5 volt scale (typical), and you want to richen it by 50% across the board (which translates to the piggyback applying a 2-3v increase on the MAS signal), you will still run lean on top because the ECU does not know what to do with a 6-7v signal.

As you can see, a piggyback has a lot of limitations, but an EEPROM upgrade addresses all of these things with an entirely new set of air/fuel and timing maps, often times tuned specifically for a certain pulley upgrade, or other set of mods.

As for changing the fuel pressure to alter the mixture, it works to a degree but a major caveat is that you are also affecting the spray pattern of the injector.

-Ray

P.S. my experience comes from tuning the 2JZ-GTE twin turbo Supra, and there are a dozen different kinds of piggyback devices available for it, but they are to be used only as fine-tuning tools, not to actually make power

[CKlasse]

Welcome to the forum,

Just to clarify, MAS/MAP signal won't matter if it goes beyond range. The engine by then is in WOT/Open Loop mode. Furthermore, most MAS only resists voltage in frequency. The source (the ECU) supplies 5v and MAS will return 0.2-4.8V (in Hz). I doubt you will see 6V.

This perticular piggy back allows you to 'tune up' your AFR from idle to WOT. Running at 12.5 will give your engine (NA or even better for forced induction app.) a better response. I personally like any 'adjustable' programmer/piggy back better simply because they are 'adjustable.' On the other hand, "standard" EEPROM upgrades is based on your stock perimeters (stock intake box, exhaust, ignition, fuel delivery, etc). If you have upgraded any of these perimeters, I assume the new 'EEPROM' fuel mapping will be off. CUSTOM programming / or adjustable piggy back is the only way to go.

Moreover, you won't have to worry much about the spray pattern of the injectors. They are designed and tuned upto certain maximum degree/spray angle. As long as you use premium fuel and keep your injectors clean, you are good to go.

Finally, the third generation piggy back/programmer actually reads tranny slipage, mas, knock sensor, and O2S. Some even reads your boost, egt, along with tranny fluid temp on forced induction applications. I just wish there is such product specifically for the MBs. Even in Europe such programmers are limited to the TDI engines.

Better Tuned = More Power

So what do you drive now?

[VIP_MBZ]

Originally posted by CKlasse
Welcome to the forum,

Just to clarify, MAS/MAP signal won't matter if it goes beyond range. The engine by then is in WOT/Open Loop mode. Furthermore, most MAS only resists voltage in frequency. The source (the ECU) supplies 5v and MAS will return 0.2-4.8V (in Hz). I doubt you will see 6V.

Right; my only concern was being able to richen the mixture beyond the factory map.

On the other hand, "standard" EEPROM upgrades is based on your stock perimeters (stock intake box, exhaust, ignition, fuel delivery, etc). If you have upgraded any of these perimeters, I assume the new 'EEPROM' fuel mapping will be off. CUSTOM programming / or adjustable piggy back is the only way to go.

I'd like to think that the eeprom that is in Renntech's Stage III upgrade (which is packaged with the pulley upgrade kit) is tuned for the extra boost you get from the pulley kit. It claims an optimized timing map as well as air-fuel ratio. I suppose that's as close to "custom" as you can get right out of the box. I agree, it's good to be able to adjust, but unfortunately a basic piggyback still is limited by the parameters of the factory map, and the lack of any timing control seems to be even more limiting.

Finally, the third generation piggy back/programmer actually reads tranny slipage, mas, knock sensor, and O2S. Some even reads your boost, egt, along with tranny fluid temp on forced induction applications. I just wish there is such product specifically for the MBs. Even in Europe such programmers are limited to the TDI engines.

Now that I'd like to see. Something that has the flexibility of standalone, and the drivability / base map of stock.

Better Tuned = More Power

So what do you drive now?

Yes definitely agreed. I have a 2000 C230k sedan. For the most part, Euro tuning parts are a whole new world to me, and it's frustrating to not be able to depend on the brands I've become loyal to in the import scene (the HKS F-Con V, for example, is an awesome piggyback which has its own injector drivers and is tunable like a standalone).

And this damn 5x112 bolt pattern keeps me away from my favorite 5x114.3 wheels. =)

-Ray

[Denlasoul]

Originally posted by VIP_MBZ
And this damn 5x112 bolt pattern keeps me away from my favorite 5x114.3 wheels. =)

Click me

[coolcarlskic43]

Originally posted by VIP_MBZ
I understand that this is an old thread, but I noticed that a lot of people were looking forward to diving onto this product rather than using an ECU upgrade (like Renntech), but seem to be misinformed about high performance tuning in a forced-induction application. (referring specifically to Kompressor models)

Regarding the comment about timing having less to do with real performance: Yes it's true that running an aggressive a/f ratio will gain you more power then bumping up the ignition timing. But using this device for that purpose is missing the big picture. The big picture is that you have a supercharger on your vehicle, which is the most efficient power-adder you have, and any other subsequent tuning should be geared towards allowing the supercharger to boost more without detonation.

Case-in-point, having a carefully tuned timing map is the key to running high boost without detonation. Same goes with the a/f ratio -- tuning on a naturally aspirated vehicle, you would want to lean out the conservative mixture to gain 5-10 horsepower, on a supercharged car, you can richen the upper RPM to cool the mixture, allowing you to run a more aggressive pulley without detonation, giving you 20-30 more hp.

The trouble with a device that controls the a/f-ratio EXCLUSIVELY, is that you are also indirectly affecting the timing map. All this device does is fool the MAS to reporting more or less volume of air, and the ECU will therefore compensate for more of less fuel. What they don't tell you is that the ECU also determines the spark advance from the volume of air ingested, and in most factory boosted setups, this means retarding the timing as the volume increases. So when you're leaning out, you're also advancing, and when you're richening, you're retarding.

You are also going to be limited by the maximum signal output of the MAS -- for example, if it uses a 0-5 volt scale (typical), and you want to richen it by 50% across the board (which translates to the piggyback applying a 2-3v increase on the MAS signal), you will still run lean on top because the ECU does not know what to do with a 6-7v signal.

As you can see, a piggyback has a lot of limitations, but an EEPROM upgrade addresses all of these things with an entirely new set of air/fuel and timing maps, often times tuned specifically for a certain pulley upgrade, or other set of mods.

As for changing the fuel pressure to alter the mixture, it works to a degree but a major caveat is that you are also affecting the spray pattern of the injector.

-Ray

P.S. my experience comes from tuning the 2JZ-GTE twin turbo Supra, and there are a dozen different kinds of piggyback devices available for it, but they are to be used only as fine-tuning tools, not to actually make power

And this is exactly why I got rid of my Apexi AFC on my Eagle Talon.No timing control.

Being able to control timing while controlling fuel is of the essence and very important as well when it comes to making safe reliable HP in my opinion.This is also why I installed an AEM EMS in my Talon now.My WHP #'s went from 343hp at 22lbs of boost to 413hp(485hp at the crank) at the same amt of boost with just the standalone upgrade.BIG DIFFERENCE.



I am told over and over that the Powerchip upgrade wrks great on the C43 and I have a guy that does Superchip upgrades for the C43 as well. I'd personally go with a chip upgrade or standalone on an MB b4 going piggy back.



AEM makes a standalone for the E36 BMW's now,I'm hoping they will make one for the MB's soon.

[98c43amg]

Originally posted by VIP_MBZ
And this damn 5x112 bolt pattern keeps me away from my favorite 5x114.3 wheels. =)

Originally posted by Denlasoul
Click me

and pix of 5x114 rims on the car speedybenz's was talking about:

http://www.club202.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=2

[CKlasse]

The third gen piggy back / programmers have been out for a while... just not for the imports.

We install 'edgeproducts.com' programmers on a lot of turbo diesel engines. 120HP and 300lbs instant gain! The shop used to have a 400hp/700trq powerstroke. Now, we are building a 03 'turbo'd' Hemi powered 2500. I ll try post some picts as the project taking into better shape.

Regards

[MrSpace]

VIP_MBZ: what upgrades do you have in your car?

some people placed HKS in their 230k engine, and also one replaced his supercharger with a turbo Because our SC cannot bost over ~11psi

Etienne