Custom clutch + FW

[Pagz]

Performance section is really ....REALLY dead these days

Anyways heres what im upto at the mo...

The stock dual mass clutch didnt appear to handle the increase in hp to well,apart from the slippage at ft...the spring mech inside the DM has lost its centre point since i last checked it back in the day i last removed the transmission.ie the holes dont line up and need to be forced to,so its not slack,just showing signs of weakening!.

After reading a bit on DM FW on turbo desiel trucks,cars coming apart with increased torque/hp we decided we would make a custom single mass item with an aftermarket pressure plate and disk to help keep it all together...when it finally goes together^^.

There isnt to many after market clutches out there for the MB,Spec was the only one i could find,they recommended a stage 3+ for the HP i run and the best drivability(better than stage3).
I ordered the clutch and told the company it would need to have a sprung centre as i planned to make a single mass FW to replace the DM.

they confirmed it was sprung...and sent me this =)


So after a small battle they told me to send it back to spec,and they would make a custom disk with sprung centre and send it back to me asap!...so i played patient,as they were doing it at there cost........36 days later i email spec and find out they have no idea what happened to my disk,as the company i went through didnt fill out the correct paperwork lol...damn why did i play patient.

The guys at spec found the disk and had it made then shipped to me within the week!,frickn yay=)



So iv drawn up the FW ready to be made,its going to be a combo alloy 7075 with a steel face,which should wiegh approx 25% lighter than stock.
will get some picks up as we build it =)


Ross,price is on the way,im due there this morning,they were ment to give me it before the end of last week!!.

Cheers all,
Paul

[Logic]

i know this is going to be a stupid question, but what does the springs do compaired to the one with out them? do the springs do something when it spins?

[SLAMMED_C]

NICE!! must have cost a lil bit! but worth every penny as long as no fitment issues or troubles once installed.. *fingers crossed*

gotta get that beast running right man.

[Nelson Lago]

wow man you got lucky (in a way) i didn't anyone made an aftermarket clutch.

Logic the springs he's talking about are on the clutch, thay absorb some of the torque on engagement so theirs no chatter, making it a smother shift, at least i think that's the springs 23k is referring too

[c280nz]

yea boi!
bout time sum1 posted somethin in here, i hang in mercedes shop forum performance paddock now, as theres like 4 or 5 of us on there with turbo m104s now, common as

man im stocked for u that they actually finally sent u back the clutch with springs :bunny:
i say make the fw as light as possible, just carve more out, ul neva regret how quick itl rev, i mean hey if i could get away with running no flywheel what so ever i would! dont worry bout the engine, when shes fcukt just thro it out and stick a new one in

how much did the clutch cost? if u dont mind me askin, i need one, as anythin past 7 pound and she lets go. just pm me if u dont wana throw figures round out here.

(my post was bigger than ur original one, opps)

[Pagz]

Yip the springs are there to absorb vibration and make engament smoother,it also helps with transmission wear and noise!.

might have to check out mercedes shop ay!

LOL just throw out for a new one...er well it wouldnt be that expensive actually^^....you know as well as i do mine will not be that light =P



I think the kit cost $855usd,i used UltraRev.com as they did paypal..so no need for wire transfers(~1400nz incl shipping) and comes with a new thrust bearing and location tool,if you got one for urs it would be a similar price i think(if it was 3+)...
so not very cheap....the other option would be to custom fit one,but i think its much easier to make a custom FW to suit a pressure plate and disk already designed for the 202.


Oh and iv thrown out the oil cooler project...as we farked the front cover...its very porous and full of oil...so need a new one or second hand...new is $491 cost^^

Man i spent along time with the dremel on this one haha,there was a second mount ment to be welded beside it for a return...
the guys called me up and said it doesnt look good,the pockets of air and oil just blow the weld everywhere...the weld on the left was an attempt at welding the pin hole where oil was seaping from the cast,pic says it all =)
the only way to install an oil cooler is to relocate the filter and make a custom cap to take and return it from the original filter housing...which is a cheap way imo...as you end up with a chamber full of oil,and you would need to modify the oil drop valve when the filter is removed.

RULE: NEVER weld any part to the M111 but on the sump.



Laters


Oh and Ross the boss is away this week....so i have to wait till next week to start the FW...will get the price when hes back i guess!....the flange is still there too!.

[Pagz]

"but worth every penny as long as no fitment issues or troubles once installed.. *fingers crossed*"

Iv had thoughts of assembling the whole thing going to start it and finding it wont disengage properly...or it shudders and is a complete pita to drive....iv started praying to the car gods early^^

[c280nz]

whos making the flywheel, cos i reckon my mate will make it for cheaper as a perky, get a quote first and let me know.

why cant u just use the turbo oil feed to go to the oil cooler then back thru the turbo?

shit that clutch is expensive! i hope it holds the hp your laying down.

if ur welding to cast you have to weld to a large chunk of it not a strengthing fin, but that sucks about thefront cover, just get it patched, dremel it tidy and paint it, dont spend excessive mula on it

[Pagz]

I use a little business called Burr engineering...they get a lot of work from our company.
they made pretty much every machined part on the car like the intake manifold flange etc,and always seem to charge a decent price for the work!.
I was planning to use endeavor engineering in Tauranga as they specialize more in FW stuff...but i can call into burr on the way home from work to sort issues...tauranga is a pita.
I will get a price though and get back to ya!...there is a fairly huge amount of work involved in the flywheel....i may or may not have gone alittle overboard with design...lol

Using the turbo oil feed really isnt an option as any oil taken from here will have to be returned to the sump which equates to a drop in oil pressure over the whole system.
if you were to take it from here it would need to be a very small amount,which would possibly be inefficient at cooling the system.

The pipes really need to come off straight after the pump,through a thermostat/cooler and back to the engine...in -10 pipe!!.

man i hope that clutch does the job too...im not sure how much more failures i can take lol


I should have taken a before welding shot of that front cover,i had made two small flat mounts out of 16mm alloy plate,i ground them to perfectly suit the shape of the cover with a large dremel and also ground away the thin supports on the cover so that we could get the torch in around to weld it...when i ground away the support to the left in the pic i noticed a small puddle of oil which kept puddling even after i wiped it away(the cover was thoroughly washed prior to) ...i told the guys to put a spot of weld on there to stop oil when it was installed back under oil pressure...it wouldnt weld at all...nor would any of the thick casting...it had to many pockets of air or oil...and blu weld all over the torch...we all new it could happen...but i just had to try lol.
So theres no easy way to fix this,it will slowly leak oil if its re-installed.

One option would be to buy a brand new cover and weld onto it in the hope that oil was the cause of our problems....but its an expensive guest^^

All in all i think it might have to be plan B...install a 90 degree thermistor and bring the electric fans in earlier.

went on mercshop,got some intereting very stuff on there ay=)

[omegabenz]

I am not sure, but can't you buy an oil filter housing that is already cast with the oil cooler line hook ups? I know its not w202, but the m119 euro oil filter housing is about $350 or so. That might be the better way to do it. Are there any oil passages on the block that you can tap into? Like the old 560SL euro cars send oil to the cooler from the block, and then it returns to the oil filter housing. I think I have that routing correct, but maybe check out the EPC.

Im sure you have done this already though right?

[c280nz]

yea im not sure how much of the stuff on there would relate to your car, but theres people there that seem to know there merc tuning,

i was meaning to plumb the oil line from the block thru the oil cooler, then thru the turbo and dump into the sump like its ment to anyway, but i guess like you say it wouldnt be enough flow to be effective,
keep your fw simple, u shud just make it out of mild steel and get more taken out instead of using different metals combined,
if ive learnt anything so far its over complicated= cock ups.

yea and omega said, i was thinking the same, why didnt you just drill and tap another oil line, but i poresumed u would have had your reasoning for doing what you did

[Pagz]

The reason i was planning to make it out of 7075 is that we can make it to the exact size of the original fw and still only be around 25% lighter with the added wieght of the ringgear,timing gear and steel face...doing it this way does require a few more screws,though the only real difference between going steel or alloy is screws on the friction surface,and a few hellacoils.
but i know what you mean simple is always better for this stuff!

Im still debating remaking the timing gear vs cutting it of the oe fw,it may be better to make it as it could be deaper for better fixing,will see i guess

Omega,yeh iv been though all the ways you can do it...none are easy!...though i never thought there was another cover made that housed oil returns!...i will check that thx.

[Pagz]

Theres hope yet!
the 2.3L M111 vito van uses an oil-water cooler mounted to the rear of the oil filter housing,the housing has a different part # to mine.

It looks like the cooler bolts directly upto where i was trying to weld on those mounts!...part 29,32,17,14 are the bits(its a bypass valve if oil cooler gets blocked but needs to be there so oil is diverted to the cooler) i was going to custom make it make mine work!...but didnt know were even made for this engine!!

So next is to do a shit load of research on the vito engine and see if we can get just the front cover!!!...i dont think theres room to do the water cooler though,my FPR and manifold inhibit that area so air - oil will be the likley outcome.

[Pagz]

Hey Ross,do you ever get Vito 230 M111's at your work?...i would say there fairly rare as most would go D power =)

[Pagz]

Hey Logan,
Did your FW face have a tapper towards the centre?
mine does by quiet a bit(~ 1.5mm+ )so that woudld mean the outer edge of the disk would be clamped harder than the centre,which is ok for the factory thin flexi disk which have springs on the outer to allow it to conform to the tapper...but if i had have put the spec in there only about half the disk would have made contact as its so rigid!...i questioned the spec guys on why they designed a clutch kit that is possibly rated for more torque than the fw it capable of handling and also how they expected there solid disk to work with a tappered fw...........lol,i got no evidence they ever knew that but they said "we are confident it will still work ok"....how well was anyone guess^^
So i doubt if they have ever even see the fw they make this kit for...which goes for alot of aftermarket parts these days i bet!.

If you did have this tapper,did you take that into account when you designed the new fw?

Im thinking ill just use the highest measurement and make the new one dead flat,i just dont want to end up with a scenario where you push the clutch hard in and theres still a reasonable amount of friction

Oh and have taken a gamble and ordered the Vito front cover,theres no going back if its wrong lol.

Anyways,
Laters bro,have a nice weekend.

[SLAMMED_C]

Originally posted by 23K
Hey Ross,do you ever get Vito 230 M111's at your work?...i would say there fairly rare as most would go D power =)

we actually never got the Vito in Canada!.. at least ive never ever seen one.. EVER!
im pretty sure it was a europe only vehicle.
sorry mang.
but if it is the same block I dont see why the front cover wont work.

[c280nz]

heyo,
im not sure if my standard one had a taper?, but i do know the new FW we made was flat.
and you say that the standard dual mass couldnt handle the torque? how do you know?
i thought that the dampners in the dual mass flywheels would just "bottom out" and not be an issue with more torque, hence just be less effective?
is this correct paul

a small taper woulnt be a bad thing tho, as it would just give more clamping pressure at the very outside, hence handle more torque,
i would make the new one the same as the old one with a taper

[Pagz]

Yo,

Yeh your right about the dmfw,it would just bottom out when it hits the stops!...i guess mine was getting on a bit hence why the springs were slackening!?.

It is kind of wierd though that mine went from perfectly centred to at least 3-4 mm off centre angle after we started running the extra hp...it wouldnt have done more than 5k since i had the gearbox out!

The guys at spec recommend running the flywheel dead flat!,which would suit there rigid disk better.
but yeh i would have thought a tapper would have been best to,maybe it will be best to do it flat as thats how most are built....hmmm

Cant believe everything you read...but heres some stuff i found on the net...
Interesting about the noise when disengaging under slight load...i used to here that on mine!,i just thought it was normal!

"Premature failure of a dual mass flywheel can be caused by a variety of things other than normal wear and tear. The flywheel is engineered to handle a specific load, so if the engine has been modified to produce more power (turning up the boost pressure, for example), or adding a turbocharger or supercharger to a naturally aspirated engine, or nitrous oxide, the engine may produce more torque than the stock dual mass flywheel can handle."

"Overloading the drivetrain by pulling more weight than the vehicle's maximum towing or hauling capacity can also overtax a dual mass flywheel and lead to premature failure."

"Even if a dual mass flywheel does not experience a spring failure, the service life of most OEM dual mass flywheels is typically about the same as the clutch, which means the flywheel usually needs to be replaced when the clutch wears out. If you simply bolt in a new clutch, chances are your customer will have flywheel problems at some point down the road because of the weakened springs in the flywheel. That's why many experts recommend replacing a dual mass flywheel when changing a clutch - especially if the flywheel has more than 80,000 or 90,000 miles on it. The flywheel should be considered a wear item just like the clutch, and should be replaced when a new clutch is installed."


Its probibly just another part im replacing which wasnt nessessary LOL


Laters Bro

[Pagz]

Originally posted by SLAMMED_C
we actually never got the Vito in Canada!.. at least ive never ever seen one.. EVER!
im pretty sure it was a europe only vehicle.
sorry mang.
but if it is the same block I dont see why the front cover wont work.

Np man!,i went out to a second hand MB parts place today as they had a Vito M111!...but it didnt have the oil cool dammit! =)

So iv ordered a new one which cant be returned!...so it better fit =P

[Pagz]

Hmmm

"The dual mass systems are designed to transmit less engine vibration to the driveline, and give a better more car like driving experience. They also reduce some of the jarring and stress on the transmission and remainder of the drivetrain. They work fine as long as the engine remains unmodified and the vehicle is not used/abused beyond manufacturers recommendations.

As soon as you start to increase the engine power over stock, or load the vehicle beyond design parameters, you run into problems. Dual mass flywheels are tuned systems and must be matched to the engine torque curve, engine resonant characteristics, vehicle load curves (including axle ratio/tire size calculations). They work by having a set of springs inserted between two rotating masses (thus dual mass). The springs are sized to soak up some of the resonant vibration from the diesel engine under load conditions. A dual mass fly wheel generally also contains an over torque friction release, so if it gets suddenly overloaded, rather than damage the springs, it slips. This works fine as a safety valve, but if it does it much it burns up. In short, overloaded they burn up and the springs get destroyed and they are worse than if it were a single mass FW.

The single mass part WILL tend to transmit more engine pulse (vibration) tot he drivetrain, and will seem a bit rougher. But it is straight forward to design a single mass flywheel and clutch package for pretty much any engine torque curve and vehicle loading combo you can come up with. Drives more like a TRUCK, but has much better reliability at extreme use levels."

[SLAMMED_C]

Originally posted by 23K
Np man!,i went out to a second hand MB parts place today as they had a Vito M111!...but it didnt have the oil cool dammit! =)

So iv ordered a new one which cant be returned!...so it better fit =P

so its an oil cooler for the engine oil.. like the newer AMG cars? is there a seperate cooler that fits behind the bumper.. of just cooling fins where the cooler is at the filter housing?
sucks you couldnt get it second hand.. hope the new one fits!

[Pagz]

Yip,its an oil - water cooler,looks to be feed off the water jacket at the rear and front of the block judging by the shape of the pipes in that pic!.I plan to run an oil-air still though.
Thanks bro im hoping lots=)

I got a price for that flange,but im not going to tell you lol,even i was shocked,you'd be better off buying a new car!!!


logan,Iv given in=P....decided to be wise like cough*^^.... and go all steel,so much cheaper,so much stronger,so much less chance of malfunction due to cruching at the mounting point.

[c280nz]

Originally posted by 23K
Yip,its an oil - water cooler,looks to be feed off the water jacket at the rear and front of the block judging by the shape of the pipes in that pic!.I plan to run an oil-air still though.
Thanks bro im hoping lots=)



logan,Iv given in=P....decided to be wise like cough*^^.... and go all steel,so much cheaper,so much stronger,so much less chance of malfunction due to cruching at the mounting point.

ahem il pm u my address for sending the beers

u going to get it tapered? or just go flat?
they shud be able to make it pritty light, just carve heaps out of the back to make it lighter,
and re-use the ring gear and magnet itl be cheaper, and save costs.

random note, my present job is buying some bigger injectors, ive already bought a fpr, and im shopping round on ebay, prolly go for 440's,

paaaaaa eace bruda

[Pagz]

hahaha...mmm heiny?=D

it was balancer bob that finally tipped me over when i asked if he could grind and balance the alloy item...he was hard against using any alloy to bolt against the crank...its just not tough enough to avoid crushing over time hence why you see aftermarket companies providing a steel disk for the bolts to clamp against the alloy...so steel is the only way really!.

I need alot of convincing some times^^ =P

have drawn up the plans,will take material from the front and rear until we get it around the "right" wieght?!?...or the weight i feel is enough to gain some performance but still rob enough hp to fight vibration...books say no more than 30% less than stock to avoid excesive vibration but who knows every aplication is so different..
Another interesting thing is you could have two flywheels that weigh the same but operate totally different depending on how far out the mass is from the centre! =)hmmmm

Yip will reuse the ring gear for sure(new is another $125).
Was planning to remake the timing gear,but to save we're going to mill off the welds and reuse it too!.

Ah yeh,hmm from memory my oe are high impedance 280cc items.
so i guess your will be high impedance too?whats the oe cc on the 280?

Remember to first set the fpr with the vaccum disconnected lol...back on that first turbo setup i installed,i wound it up to stock pressure and went for a drive...wondered why the fuel lines were making a tapping noise hahaha....DOH^^
it wasnt until i reinstalled the frp on this setup and ran the fuel pump with the engine off that i finally clicked...in my defence the manual was in japanese =D

Peace

[c280nz]

im glad you have seen the light!
gota save costs so u can spend the benjamin's on other toys,
(man ive got the american lingo dialed)

yea the further out you cut the material from, the less rotational mass, so i reckon try and take the 30% from as far out as possible,

i have found yes my one does have more vibration if i let the revs get to low in a to higher gear, e.g. below 2krpm in 4th or 5th, but this is more because of labouring the engine i think.
but ur gona find traction is more of an issue with the engine free'd up and reving quicker, esp in first and second, 265s help but not that much.....

my standard injectors are 210cc, high impediance,
i steped it up to 310s but there still too small, so next step.

remember this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H2BOGGUbm4

i gota go dont wana miss shortie street